Putting this back on topic (and the OP), I agree fully. I been facing some pretty tough circumstances as of late, as I'm sure others have as well, but despite that, its been pretty good. I get little financial aid but I can still pay for college provided I save, its hard to put food on the table for two but I do it and do it well enough, and its hard to pay the bills/rent, but it gets done.

Its been a long four years of this, with significant ups and downs. Disregarding the economy altogether, its been tough in its own merits. But soon I'll have my degree and soon enough, I'll be working in geriatrics as a healthcare adminstrator. I've had to work hard, put up with some serious shit, and fight but its nothing that couldn't be done by anybody motiviated to get what they want.

I'm sure there's plenty of people here who go to school during the day and then work a 12 hour shift at night (in my case, at the hospital as a CNA). Despite all of that, life is damn good and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

The U.S.'s domestic policy is questionable at best (and thats regardless of who's in power honestly) but hey, it can be a whole world worse.

Originally Posted by nasum Treated equally under the law? You're operating under the premise that they aren't, with the statement that blacks are incarcerated more than whites. So, there are two ways to look at that, blacks get caught in the act more often than whites, or the system is setup against them. One of those options takes into account personal accountability while the other blames outside sources and lacks any and all personal accountability.

Which either way means black people have it far worse than white people. Sounds like...Institutional Racism.

I have strong opinions, ignorant or otherwise, regarding people acting like idiots and blaming others for their circumstances. I don't understand why people willingly and willfully engage in stupidity. If you join the Bloods or the Crips or whatever and then get caught selling drugs, murdering rival gang members and otherwise acting like your life is a real version of GTAIV, don't sit there and blame racist cops and judges for your ed up life. Blame yourself for going down that road. If you're living in the lala land of the blissful suburbs and you kill a kid in the neighborhood because you're driving home drunk from the bar, don't blame the kid for running after their football and don't blame the bar for serving you. Blame your dumbass self for getting too ed up to drive, and then driving. What is so wrong with accepting the consequences of one's actions?

You already acknowledge that black people are treated worse than white people, so are some white people ALSO to blame? Why is it that black people should somehow be MORE responsible than the institutions that that act in a racist manner? Or what about the policies that keep poor people poor and the rich people richer. Don't those with the most power have a responsibility for screwing things up at the bottom?

False equivocation - I was attempting to demonstrate how the stereotype application can go multiple ways. I wasn't trying to group the two together.

All stereotypes are not equal and all discrimination is not equal. Calling someone a redneck doesn't mean shit. Hell, some people are proud to be called a redneck. You call someone a n****r, well I hope you're not going to play dumb and try to double talk your way into ignorance. Or maybe you should use better analogies.

I'm saying that rural "white crime" gets caught less, strictly due to the fact that there are less people around to do the catching. I'm not saying that they do more or less criminal activity, I'm simply saying that there's less law enforcement around.

So more law enforcement resources should be allocated towards areas with lower population density? Why do you think that there isn't more of a presence in those areas especially if there are more crimes being commited than a small department can handle?

Opposite of fairness under the law and extenuating circumstances - Is there a warrant out for the arrest of the person that gets treated differently for the same crime? Weapon possession? Prior convictions/repeat offender? In a stolen vehicle? Intoxicated at the time of apprehension? Resisting arrest? That's 6 possible reasons for different treatment, not a single one involving race. Again, it's too easy to call out racism while ignoring numerous other possibilities.

WHICH IS WHY I SAID HARSHER SENTENCES FOR THE SAME CRIMES.

Your last bit, nice. How about a young black kid realizes that their education sucks, decides to do something about it, apply for grants, get student aid, educate themselves in other ways such that they don't have to depend on the school, do the work necessary to get themselves in a better situation, get a degree in education and then go back to where their school was crappy because no one cared and, well I don't know, maybe try and make a difference. Nah, easier to "blame the man" and do all with your life isn't it?

And we're right back where we started with the state of the education system being insufficient to address the needs of the populace. Where are those resources? You already said that libraries suck, schools suck, parks suck, and everything ing sucks. What do you propose beyond bootstraps and a prayer? You had ALSO already said that upward socio-economic mobility is virtually non-existant. I should just quote your other posts and have you argue with yourself.

Granted these are polar opposites and there are many areas in between. But seriously, are you going to sit there and tell me (reading between the lines) that a black kid living in a rough neighborhood simply has no choice but to become a statistic? That's just fulfilling the doom and gloom. Why am I a racist for saying that the kid should take responsibility for itself and figure out a way to get out of the BS?

A white man with a criminal record has a higher chance of getting a job than a black man with no criminal record with similar qualifications. A person with an "ethnic" sounding name is less likely by a factor of 6, to get a call back for an interview than a person with a white sounding name. You tell me what the poor black kid should do to against those statistics.

institutional racism? Judges are elected, meaning they can be removed if the populace thinks they aren't serving the community fairly. Why not get out and vote anti-incumbent for judges if you've elected one that you feel is racist? Juries are served by a random selection of people in the community. If you live in a predominantly black neighborhood, and you're found guilty by a jury, are the blacks on the jury guilty of racism? The judge sets the sentence, vote them out. The cops make the arrests, they're hired by city officials, so your elected city council and such are also racist. VOTE THEM OUT if you're dissatisfied. Shit, point this out to enough people and you may even get elected yourself if you cater to the whims of the disenfranchised.

Unless I was pointing out a contradiction, or being sarcastic for the sake of a point, I don't recall pointing out that blacks have it worse than whites. At least, not to the extent that the world is against them. I think they have it worse when it comes to living conditions, mainly because it seems that nobody wants to do anything about the problems. It's easier to blame others for the shortcomings of a shitty life.

And with all the n word thrown around in rap music and such, that isn't a badge of honor to some? Basically as long as it isn't a white dude calling you that, it's cool right? Richard Pryor said it best when he said he wasn't going to use that word anymore because he doesn't want to be that.

The lack of resources is due to the sparse population. There's less income in the area in terms of property taxes and whatnot to hire more police. You're seemingly accusing these areas of being a good ol' boys club and that they don't care about crime.

If you're honestly going to tell me that a repeat offender with the same record, arrested in the same circumstances, by the same officer, tried by the same jury and sentenced by the same judge will get a different result based on race then I can no longer argue this point with you. Perhaps it's naive of me to believe that justice is that blind, but I simply cannot believe that two people who are identical in every way but skin color will get a different sentence.

The resources are there. The kids aren't going to a classroom without a teacher. The books are there. The federal funding for education is there. The teacher's unions are there to lobby for money. What isn't there? Kids that actually want to learn. As pointed out in the other thread by MSI Magus, the culture willfully embraces failure, otherwise you're a snitch or a Tom or whatever. But now you're forcing me to paint with a broad brush which I'm trying to avoid.
I had to go to a wedding in rural Wisconsin a year or two ago. They had some dumb kids out there. Why? Because they weren't interested in learning. It's the same situation anywhere. If you have kids that aren't interested in learning and would rather goof off, they're likely to be ups regardless of creed.

Your last counterpoint still doesn't address personal accountability. However your second does which raises an interesting point. Policies that keep people poor. Follow the money, why is it advantageous for those in power to, through policy, essentially propogate failure? Who benefits most from promising extra benefits to the poor?

Throughout all of this, you've basically pointed at me and said "This is an example of a racist who doesn't burn crosses but is one anyways", yet you've offered nothing. How should we, as a society, absolve the problems of which you speak and still remain fair to everyone?

What you've pointed out:
Institutional Racism (I'm grouping inequal sentencing and economic issues here, feel free to divest)
Lack of education
Preference towards whites
and a few others as well.

Help me out here.

Originally Posted by Sporadic Hold on, are they trying to say that the typical family in most European countries don't have an air conditioner, a refrigerator, TV, or a microwave? Who knows.

Actually they may not have an air conditioner, they aren't used as much in Europe.

Originally Posted by nasum institutional racism? Judges are elected, meaning they can be removed if the populace thinks they aren't serving the community fairly. Why not get out and vote anti-incumbent for judges if you've elected one that you feel is racist?

Not all judges are elected. I'd wager to say that most judges in this country aren't.

Juries are served by a random selection of people in the community. If you live in a predominantly black neighborhood, and you're found guilty by a jury, are the blacks on the jury guilty of racism?

Juries are not random. The jury "pool" may be random, but those chosen to sit on a jury to hear a case aren't. The prosecution, defence, and judge decide who sits on a jury. You might not be able to stack a jury full of black people, but when a black person is going to trial, you can sure as hell stack the jury full of white people.

And yes, black people can have internalized racism. Look at Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman. Hell, Michael Jackson.

The judge sets the sentence, vote them out. The cops make the arrests, they're hired by city officials, so your elected city council and such are also racist. VOTE THEM OUT if you're dissatisfied. Shit, point this out to enough people and you may even get elected yourself if you cater to the whims of the disenfranchised.

You want the disenfranchised to vote out people perpetuating institutional racism. This makes NO SENSE.

Unless I was pointing out a contradiction, or being sarcastic for the sake of a point, I don't recall pointing out that blacks have it worse than whites. At least, not to the extent that the world is against them. I think they have it worse when it comes to living conditions, mainly because it seems that nobody wants to do anything about the problems. It's easier to blame others for the shortcomings of a shitty life.

So we're back to poor black people are poor because they're black and since they're black, they're poor?

Lemme break it down for you so hopefully you'll understand this time. I might be using some terms you're unfamiliar with so look them up before you post:

The US was an apartheid state up until about 1964. That was when overt and outright racism and discrimination was "outlawed" in certain areas of society. You know that thing in the Depression called the New Deal and the GI Bill? For all intents and purposes, it never went to people of color. I shouldn't need to enumerate how bad it was for black people back then. White people had priority in hiring and schools were not desegregated. This created the white middle-class. As for generational wealth? Black people were never given anything. Sharecropping is not ownership. Slaves were not reimbursed for their labor. They were not given an education. Do you know what that means? It mean generational poverty on a massive scale. Property taxes were made to stay within a community. This means that some school districts, mostly white, were much better than ones in black communities. This should sound familiar to you as well.

So not only were black people not given an education, able to take advantage of programs that they should qualify for, but they were actively prohibited from participating in any socio-economic mobility. When it came to the FHA, black communities were specifically targeted as being non-viable for loans where as white communities we're given a pass. This was the status quo up until about 1964. What it comes down to is that black people in this country were never really even given a chance.

If you followed that and it didn't go over your head, you can apply that to the nonsense you've been posting and see how ridiculous it is.

And with all the n word thrown around in rap music and such, that isn't a badge of honor to some? Basically as long as it isn't a white dude calling you that, it's cool right? Richard Pryor said it best when he said he wasn't going to use that word anymore because he doesn't want to be that.

It's a term of kinship and unity. It's about empowerment and subverting it's influence. Why should you care how people want to relate to one another anyways. Do you find it unfair that they can say something you can't? When a white person used to say n****r, they were exercizing their power and authority over someone. If black people want to reappropriate it, what's the harm in that.

The lack of resources is due to the sparse population. There's less income in the area in terms of property taxes and whatnot to hire more police.

Good thing the taxes from more well-to-do areas are redistributed to other areas that aren't doing as well.

You're seemingly accusing these areas of being a good ol' boys club and that they don't care about crime.

Where'd that come from? No, I'm accusing the system of being highly selective in who it directs it's attention to.

If you're honestly going to tell me that a repeat offender with the same record, arrested in the same circumstances, by the same officer, tried by the same jury and sentenced by the same judge will get a different result based on race then I can no longer argue this point with you. Perhaps it's naive of me to believe that justice is that blind, but I simply cannot believe that two people who are identical in every way but skin color will get a different sentence.

Why is it so difficult to believe? Even if you take race out of the equation and apply class, it's grossly unbalanced.

The resources are there. The kids aren't going to a classroom without a teacher. The books are there. The federal funding for education is there. The teacher's unions are there to lobby for money. What isn't there? Kids that actually want to learn. As pointed out in the other thread by MSI Magus, the culture willfully embraces failure, otherwise you're a snitch or a Tom or whatever. But now you're forcing me to paint with a broad brush which I'm trying to avoid.

Maybe because you're painting yourself into a corner. What is black culture then?

I had to go to a wedding in rural Wisconsin a year or two ago. They had some dumb kids out there. Why? Because they weren't interested in learning. It's the same situation anywhere. If you have kids that aren't interested in learning and would rather goof off, they're likely to be ups regardless of creed.

And those country bumpkins will still have it better than a black person in similar circumstances.

Your last counterpoint still doesn't address personal accountability. However your second does which raises an interesting point. Policies that keep people poor. Follow the money, why is it advantageous for those in power to, through policy, essentially propogate failure? Who benefits most from promising extra benefits to the poor?

What is it with your fetish with personal responsibility. Doesn't personal responsibility lie with BOTH parties involved in any transaction? There is no such thing as a rational actor when perfect knowledge doesn't exist.

You want to know who benefits? The power elite. You know what happens to money that goes to welfare? It shoots straight back up to the top. It reinforces the system. The proles need to be distracted and kept dumb enough not to overthrow the power elite.

Throughout all of this, you've basically pointed at me and said "This is an example of a racist who doesn't burn crosses but is one anyways", yet you've offered nothing. How should we, as a society, absolve the problems of which you speak and still remain fair to everyone?

I've offered you nothing?

What you've pointed out: Institutional Racism (I'm grouping inequal sentencing and economic issues here, feel free to divest) Lack of education Preference towards whites and a few others as well. Help me out here.

Well looky here. Looks like I offered something afterall.

Look, if you Really want to learn about this stuff, start here and read some entries:
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/

If you're not interested in learning, well, I'll just keep calling out racism in your posts and ideology.

Exactly, the elite benefit, it's been keeping democrats elected since the 70's...

So if black people have it so bad, why doesn't anyone do anything about it?

I meant that you've offered nothing in terms of solutions, you've just stated "problem." with nothing else.

Originally Posted by nasum Exactly, the elite benefit, it's been keeping democrats elected since the 70's...

What the does being a democrat have to do with it? Proto-republican democrats have been against progressive social change since before the New Deal. Civil Rights? Conservatives did not go along with it at all.

So if black people have it so bad, why doesn't anyone do anything about it?

People of color have been trying to do things for the last 500+ years. I've outlined the problems and barriers that you seem to have picked up on. It's not a large leap to make.

edit: Why don't YOU do something about it. Why don't more white people DO something about it since they're the ones with the institutions skewed in their favor? How far down into the rabbit hole do you really want to go. Seems to me that you're pretty happy with the way things are. I guess if I was a white male, I'd like things the way they are too!

I meant that you've offered nothing in terms of solutions, you've just stated "problem." with nothing else.

Social programs specifically targeted at low-income people of color to address issues that specifically affect people of color.


Read some entries on the link I provided. DO IT.

blocked at work, I'll do it tonight or tomorrow from home when I get a chance.

Am I happy with everything? Not really, well aside from not having to barter livestock at the peel joint... On the other hand, I think anyone here in the US has it better than just about anywhere else on the planet. On average at least.

On the other hand, haven't there been social programs directed at low income black people for quite some time? Didn't you state earlier that perpetuating the welfare state hasn't done anything aside from keep the oppression going?

Originally Posted by nasum blocked at work, I'll do it tonight or tomorrow from home when I get a chance. Am I happy with everything? Not really, well aside from not having to barter livestock at the peel joint... On the other hand, I think anyone here in the US has it better than just about anywhere else on the planet. On average at least.

And then you said that most problems are minor policy disagreements.

On the other hand, haven't there been social programs directed at low income black people for quite some time?

What makes you think they were targeted at low-income black people? Are you talking about affirmative action? That's benefitted white women far more than anyone else and not targeting low-income black people.

Didn't you state earlier that perpetuating the welfare state hasn't done anything aside from keep the oppression going?

No, I said that the power elite have a vested interest in keeping the proletariat poor, under-educated, and fighting over the scraps to take power from the power elite.

And please stop using right wing coded language like "welfare state" with me. We're not even close to a welfare state unless you're talking about the upper-classes that get more government subsidies than poor folk.

does "welfare programs" suit you better? I wasn't trying to be condescending.

I'm not talking about affirmative action. Welfare (not specific to blacks of course), jobs training, after school programs, etc...

"The urban poor need remedies that judges cannot order: public and private investment to create jobs that pay a living wage, training to help them learn new skills and understand the job market, and most of all a chance to move into racially and economically integrated neighborhoods where there are better opportunities and healthier cultural norms."

from: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/bo...ewanted=1&_r=1

and there is the problem. Who wants to put up a hot dog stand in a neoghborhood that is more likely to get vandalized/robbed/ignored/staffed by people who don't care/etc...? I go to the "shittier parts" of Minneapolis (my hometown) more often than not. It's brutal. Everything is broken or really dirty at the very least. Garbage cans and street signs are covered in grafiti, windows are broken on homes and stores, beggars are really aggressive and the gang members are pretty obvious about being there. Then I go to the "normal" parts of town and things are clean, people are pleasant and talk to each other, businesses are running without fear that some random person is going to come in and go nuts and whatnot.

So you ask why don't I do anything? What the hell am I supposed to do? Go down there with a broom and clean broken glass off the sidewalk? Grab some paint and clean the grafiti? Randomly hand out cash? If I do this, how likely do you think it is that I'd get my ass kicked vs. a "hey man, thanks"?

Originally Posted by nasum does "welfare programs" suit you better? I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm not talking about affirmative action. Welfare (not specific to blacks of course), jobs training, after school programs, etc... "The urban poor need remedies that judges cannot order: public and private investment to create jobs that pay a living wage, training to help them learn new skills and understand the job market, and most of all a chance to move into racially and economically integrated neighborhoods where there are better opportunities and healthier cultural norms." from: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/bo...ewanted=1&_r=1 and there is the problem. Who wants to put up a hot dog stand in a neoghborhood that is more likely to get vandalized/robbed/ignored/staffed by people who don't care/etc...? I go to the "shittier parts" of Minneapolis (my hometown) more often than not. It's brutal. Everything is broken or really dirty at the very least. Garbage cans and street signs are covered in grafiti, windows are broken on homes and stores, beggars are really aggressive and the gang members are pretty obvious about being there. Then I go to the "normal" parts of town and things are clean, people are pleasant and talk to each other, businesses are running without fear that some random person is going to come in and go nuts and whatnot.

The neighborhoods weren't always in that state. The question you should be asking is if the neighborhoods were always like that and if they weren't, what happened. What happened to the wealth. Then you can also ask why the "normal" neighborhoods are the way they are. Were they always "normal"(not economically depressed is a better way to describe it), and how and when did they become that way. FYI, hardwork isn't the answer.

So you ask why don't I do anything? What the hell am I supposed to do? Go down there with a broom and clean broken glass off the sidewalk? Grab some paint and clean the grafiti? Randomly hand out cash? If I do this, how likely do you think it is that I'd get my ass kicked vs. a "hey man, thanks"?

Or you could tutor struggling kids with school work, tutor ESL students, tutor prisoners, tutor citizenship classes, basically share knowledge(not ideology) with those that don't have as much. And yes, I have done those things.

Originally Posted by nasum Am I happy with everything? Not really, well aside from not having to barter livestock at the peel joint... On the other hand, I think anyone here in the US has it better than just about anywhere else on the planet. On average at least.

"America might be the greatest country in the world but that's like being the prettiest Denny's waitress. Just because you are the best doesn't necessarily make you good." - Doug Stanhope

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Why did the neighborhood go down hill?
Well that's an interesting question. My assumption would be based on rising crime rates and fear in the community of reprisal if they organize to push the crime out. People see crime rates as they're shopping for a house and decide that they don't want to move in to that area because they don't want their shit messed with. Ergo, property value goes down, the area generates less income for the city/county whatever, schools receive less funding, business starts to leave, even less income for the local govt and then there's nothing left.
I don't see white oppression in that.

I have tutored and when I'm more caught up with my own situation I really want to get back to it. On the other hand I've recently moved to a new city (within the same county) so I also have to figure out if these people need any accreditation beyond a reference from my last place.

I read some of your guy there. It's the same story, I see a lot of finger pointing and blame, but little to nothing by way of solutions, let alone ideas on a starting point...