Originally Posted by Matt Young Matt Domoracki | Gail Pennyfeather | TKO| 4:25 of Rd. 1 I think Gail needs to move up to heavyweight since he was good there and sucks at LHW.

Wouldn't be a bad idea. Heavyweight division needs some new blood.

N8, you want to do our match today?

moojuice,

What are the buttons for that takedown counter you were showing me before? Isn't it just back on the left stick and whatever kick is your back foot?

Yeah, that should be the combination

Originally Posted by shotgunshine N8, you want to do our match today?

Just PM'd you. I can do it now if you're around. Or, I can do it after my Madden game at 7 PM EST...so like, 7:45'ish.

Shotgunshine,

I'm feeling pretty beat, so going to take a nap now. If you're up for fighting later on though, I'm down. That, or any day after 7 PM EST during the week is cool.

Also, an update to all:
Friday, 5/4, I have my Physical Fitness Test. All words of encouragement and good thoughts are highly welcome. I've been training like a rockstar, but cardio is still my soft spot. I should be good, but extra encouragement is always appreciated. With my luck, I'll get injured the day beforehand.

Pablo Garcia | Borat Sagdiyev | Sub | Round 3 at 2:36


Damn good fight with N8 even if we have to agree to disagree about my tactics...no shame in saying I was getting worked in the second round...first round I think it was more or less even but the punching in the clinch was really getting at me in the second....got too focused on worrying about that then started getting hit with other strikes...third round was probably going his way then he went for a takedown...his stamina wasen't that high and I went for a sub and got it.

Originally Posted by n8rockerasu Wouldn't be a bad idea. Heavyweight division needs some new blood.

I'd create another light heavyweight as well so the balance wouldn't be thrown off.

Originally Posted by Fearia Shotgunshine, I'm feeling pretty beat, so going to take a nap now. If you're up for fighting later on though, I'm down. That, or any day after 7 PM EST during the week is cool. Also, an update to all: Friday, 5/4, I have my Physical Fitness Test. All words of encouragement and good thoughts are highly welcome. I've been training like a rockstar, but cardio is still my soft spot. I should be good, but extra encouragement is always appreciated. With my luck, I'll get injured the day beforehand.

Sounds like your training hard so it shouldn't be a problem. Good luck man!

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Pablo Garcia | Borat Sagdiyev | Tapout (Kimura) | 2:36 of Rd 3

All right, I guess things are going to start getting froggy around here. Obviously, I respect shotgunshine, and have appreciated how he's carried himself during his time here. But I do not respect losing a fight like this. In the 1st rd, we were trading really good, and he was definitely getting the better of me. I switched up my strategy in the 2nd rd, mixed in some clinch work, and tried to time him better. I felt like I won that round.

In the 3rd, I did my best to keep my momentum going, and felt like I was still getting the better of him on the feet. He had taken me down, but I managed to get back to my feet, and noticed my stamina was hurting. So, when I got a chance, I ducked under and took him down, so I could let my stamina refill a bit. A few seconds on his back, and he pops a kimura from full guard.

I'm sorry. That is and WILL ALWAYS be a bitch finish. I don't question his intentions because I know he's a good guy. But I have no desire to be in fights that end that way. That kind of submission is EVERYTHING that is wrong with the sub system in this series. Fighters don't lay there in full guard and just all of a sudden go "Hey, I think I'll do a submission now." What that move amounts to is an "Oh shit, I might actually lose" submission attempt. It's not realistic. And it's garbage.

As I said, shotgunshine is a good guy, and I know he meant no ill will by it. But I assure you. It's a slippery slope, and people will not continue in this league if people start pulling crap like that. In a way, it makes me want to ban subs off the back entirely just because of the fact that they're unrealistically easy to attempt. If you want to win the fight, gain a dominant position and win it. Don't puss out from your back just because you know how to click the right stick.

Video soon to come.

Originally Posted by n8rockerasu Pablo Garcia | Borat Sagdiyev | Tapout (Kimura) | 2:36 of Rd 3 All right, I guess things are going to start getting froggy around here. Obviously, I respect shotgunshine, and have appreciated how he's carried himself during his time here. But I do not respect losing a fight like this. In the 1st rd, we were trading really good, and he was definitely getting the better of me. I switched up my strategy in the 2nd rd, mixed in some clinch work, and tried to time him better. I felt like I won that round. In the 3rd, I did my best to keep my momentum going, and felt like I was still getting the better of him on the feet. He had taken me down, but I managed to get back to my feet, and noticed my stamina was hurting. So, when I got a chance, I ducked under and took him down, so I could let my stamina refill a bit. A few seconds on his back, and he pops a kimura from full guard. I'm sorry. That is and WILL ALWAYS be a bitch finish. I don't question his intentions because I know he's a good guy. But I have no desire to be in fights that end that way. That kind of submission is EVERYTHING that is wrong with the sub system in this series. Fighters don't lay there in full guard and just all of a sudden go "Hey, I think I'll do a submission now." What that move amounts to is an "Oh shit, I might actually lose" submission attempt. It's not realistic. And it's garbage. As I said, shotgunshine is a good guy, and I know he meant no ill will by it. But I assure you. It's a slippery slope, and people will not continue in this league if people start pulling crap like that. In a way, it makes me want to ban subs off the back entirely just because of the fact that they're unrealistically easy to attempt. If you want to win the fight, gain a dominant position and win it. Don't puss out from your back just because you know how to click the right stick. Video soon to come.

I hear you when you sent me a message saying its a 'video game sub'...I can kind of understand what your getting at...you dont see many kimuras off your back in real life. Then again, you dont see people doing the gogoplata sweep to full mount and i've had that happen to me. I hate cheesers and really didn't consider it that at all. I dont spam anything or subs but if I see a chance to go for one then im going to try it. You did an ill advised takedown, I saw your stamina was a little low, so I went for the sub... I really wasen't even sure if I was going to get it because your stamina wasen't all the way drained but I happened to get it.


So let me ask this...is it considered cheap to go for a triangle off your back or another sub? Not being a smartass here. Also, I dont know if you know this but you can block sub attempts...at least when your on top of the guy you can...you just hold the right stick back like you would normally block a transition. I'll be honest, im confused here as to why its cheesing.

Originally Posted by shotgunshine I hear you when you sent me a message saying its a 'video game sub'...I can kind of understand what your getting at...you dont see many kimuras off your back in real life. Then again, you dont see people doing the gogoplata sweep to full mount and i've had that happen to me. I hate cheesers and really didn't consider it that at all. I dont spam anything or subs but if I see a chance to go for one then im going to try it. You did an ill advised takedown, I saw your stamina was a little low, so I went for the sub... I really wasen't even sure if I was going to get it because your stamina wasen't all the way drained but I happened to get it. So let me ask this...is it considered cheap to go for a triangle off your back or another sub? Not being a smartass here. Also, I dont know if you know this but you can block sub attempts...at least when your on top of the guy you can...you just hold the right stick back like you would normally block a transition. I'll be honest, im confused here as to why its cheesing.

No, I know you're not being a smartass. As I said, it's a slippery slope because of how unrealistically easy some of those moves are to do. It's that reason that I've always hated rubber guard in this series...because it leads to exploits. There's nothing wrong with rubber guard itself, but when you can engage this inescapable submission animation just by clicking the right stick from it, it makes the entire position complete and utter garbage. I'd hate to just sweep some giant brush over ALL submissions off the back, but I don't know that there's a better way to differentiate.

I agree that some of the sweeps are ridiculous. Even the one I did to you that was like the scissor leg trip back to standing, what the hell is that? lol. I forgot I even had it because that was the first time I've pulled it off. But I'd be fine with just banning any moves that are unrealistically advantageous. We could easily just ask everybody to remove them from their CAF's moveset, and have people report if anyone uses them. But deciding what those moves are, might take some work.

And I will 100% acknowledge that you don't spam subs...and that's really the only thing that makes it a reasonable finish at all. But the fact of the matter is, at that point, you were losing the fight, you were in a disadvantageous position, and then all of a sudden, "Ooh! I win!" I probably did a shitty job trying to escape the sub, but I think it just caught me by surprise. You had me on my back earlier in the round, and I could have done the same thing (not saying I would have gotten it, but rather than trying to transition or ground sway, I could have just grabbed a kimura the second my back hit the mat. Again, slippery slope.

I'm open to suggestions and opinions on how this should be ruled on in the future, and I'd completely understand if people felt that it was "a part of the sport" (as poorly implemented as it may be). But I'll tell you with certainty, I'll lose respect for people who win like that. I say again, if you want to win the fight, dominate, and win the fight. Honestly, I thought you would have attempted a sub in one of your top positions earlier in the fight (I really expected an arm triangle when you had side control). But I'm never going to respect any "ha...I pushed a button" submissions off the back. They just reek of cheapness to me.

My thing is as long as you keep your stamina fine then your more then likely never going to get the sub anyway and your wasting your time going for it. At least if your going for it off you back.. I think there are better percentages of getting it if your on top. And if you go for a takedown, and your stamina is low, and your worried about getting subbed, then you can just hold the right stick back to block it while you let your stamina refill.


In the end its not a big deal to me.. I don't have to do any subs off my back in league matches ..none of my guys are really submission based anyway...I will admit...if I wouldn't of been losing so bad im not sure I would've 100% gone for it.... Also, I wanted to actually knee and elbow your body when I had side control to soften you up a bit before I either went for a sub or took mount but you got out of it before I could do anything.

This is going to sound insulting, and i want you to know it's not meant to be. That being said, a kimura off the back is perfectly legitimate in my book. I say this as someone who has trained bjj. The reason it's seen rarely in pro fights because it takes a blatant mistake to get caught in it.

All in all, I'd say for realism sake, if you are tired and go for a takedown, you are likely to get caught making a mistake like that in real life. Seems fair to me.

Now, if we weren't doing sim stamina and even stats... Well, then I'd understand being super pissed if you ran into a submission 100 dude pulling something like that. But late in the fight, low stamina, I can see it being perfectly legitimate. Mind you, I haven't looked at the fight yet.

Originally Posted by Fearia This is going to sound insulting, and i want you to know it's not meant to be. That being said, a kimura off the back is perfectly legitimate in my book. I say this as someone who has trained bjj. The reason it's seen rarely in pro fights because it takes a blatant mistake to get caught in it. All in all, I'd say for realism sake, if you are tired and go for a takedown, you are likely to get caught making a mistake like that in real life. Seems fair to me. Now, if we weren't doing sim stamina and even stats... Well, then I'd understand being super pissed if you ran into a submission 100 dude pulling something like that. But late in the fight, low stamina, I can see it being perfectly legitimate. Mind you, I haven't looked at the fight yet.

Except that you're not taking into account the ease of clicking a stick. I just consider it cowardly. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. If you can't get off your back and impose your will in the fight, and want to "just win", good for you. As I said, I had opportunities to grab kimuras as well. Instead, I avoided punishment, timed my transitions, and got back to my feet. It's not like I'm arguing against submissions completely...and I'll even acknowledge that "comeback submissions" happen in MMA. But the way they're represented in this game is so half-assed, I just can't take them seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix782Uap7Qo

Originally Posted by n8rockerasu

That was a fun fight...im sure we'll be facing off again.


Also, I already know your thoughts on the sub issue but I wanted to test this out to make sure I was right. I picked Nogueira against Pat Barry since he has bad sub defense and had Barry in Nog's guard. I held the right stick back for Barry and spammed subs to see if Nog would get the sub and he was never able to. I thought it might work like when you block a transition where you'll eventually get it if you do it enough times...I even did it when Barry was gassed and still nothing....so I guess holding back on the right stick will block subs 100% no matter how many times someone spams it.

Like Fearia, I haven't seen a video, so my opinion is just in general, but a lot of it is very situational.

If, and only if, you were practically gassed and went for the takedown, then it would seem like a legitimate move to go for the sub off the back. Sure, clicking the stick is easy, but at the same time, if someone is gassed and about to get rocked, holding the left trigger and pushing forward on the right stick is just as easy to do as well to escape the stand-up. Another thing is it sounded like he tried it once and happened to get it. It would be a totally different story if he kept doing to over and over like Meaty did in the past.

As much as I hate saying it (NHL guys will know what I mean), it's in the game, so we have to adapt. If you (in general, not just Nate), are low on stamina, the best is to engage in the standing clinch (not the single collar clinch though) and grab on while your stamina regenerates. At that point, you run the risk of getting tripped/slammed/thrown, but you can't get knocked out or subbed from that position.

Again, these are just my two cents, and each side has a valid point, but also a valid counter-point.

Like I said earlier, it's in the game, but short of outright banning certain techniques, they next best thing is to learn to adapt it.


Edit: Serves me right to start typing a response, walk away, then finish- A vid gets posted in the mean time. I'll check out the video and update my view on the fight itself once I watch it.

I'm still calling it gutless. If anybody is at the point in this league that they worry about getting the win more than just enjoying the fight, then they need to re-evaluate their intent here. I hate to say it, but this point is ESPECIALLY relevant for shotgunshine...a man that no one has beaten in a long ass time. All I'm saying is, it's one thing for one guy to be controlling all 3 titles and have a winning streak in the double digits...but if he needs cheap subs off his back to keep it going, then the league isn't going to be fun anymore. Again, I'm not saying to just lie there and get pounded into oblivion (unless you enjoy that sort of thing), but REGAIN a dominant position and finish the fight like a man. If I was "so gassed", what was there to be worried about being in full guard? I don't care what you want to call it. It was a lame ass finish to a good fight.

Its cool...you have your opinion on it and I have mine...like I said its not a big deal to me...I wont go for subs anymore off my back. I can also assure you I play solely for fun...Of course I want to win but if I lost to the better man then so be it. I still don't find it cheap due to all you have to do is either watch your stamina, and if it is low then hold back on the right stick and your 100% fine.