Jesus spokker could to be any more high school college guy all my friends are in relationships except me with that remark?

Originally Posted by sp00ge Nothing, and the bible shouldn't have any domain over any part of government. But the bible-thumpers want this to be a "Christian" nation, out of fear that god will take his vengeance on us as a whole when the day of judgment comes. Us heathens are "rocking the boat," so to speak. At least that's how I see it, but what the do I know?

That's another group who I would chip in to buy them their own island.They can call it Christiana, and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

Originally Posted by Spokker Marriage shouldn't even be in the domain of government. It's an antiquated institution and there is no benefit for a man to get married anyway. Let people concoct private contracts and let them call it whatever they want. However, if we are going to stick this notion that the government should recognize a marriage, then gays should have the opportunity to be as miserable as the rest of society.

That right there is the problem. The term "marriage" should be renamed "civil union" for all. With that, all benefits come with it, as they do now with legal "marriage."

The term "marriage" should be relegated to religious recognition, with no impact outside of your church. First, you have a "civil union," and if you wish to appease your god, have it upgraded to "marriage" (or "tlhogh", "fonfon rubok", or whatever) at your local place of worship.

Keep the two separate entities and everyone should be happy. Of course, in a perfect world, this would work, but it would never actually happen.

Originally Posted by Spokker Marriage shouldn't even be in the domain of government. It's an antiquated institution and there is no benefit for a man to get married anyway. Let people concoct private contracts and let them call it whatever they want. However, if we are going to stick this notion that the government should recognize a marriage, then gays should have the opportunity to be as miserable as the rest of society.

It's strange that you would say that marriage isn't beneficial to men. I am married and I have kids. I know the statistics that one household with two parents and the kids together will always be financially better off than a single parent household with kids and a second household with one parent (probably the father) living alone. This increases poverty and decreases the likely the children will succeed.

So yes, marriage does benefit a man (until the children reach adulthood)......as long as he has any kind of evolutionary drive at all....

Originally Posted by Blaster man It's strange that you would say that marriage isn't beneficial to men. I am married and I have kids. I know the statistics that one household with two parents and the kids together will always be financially better off than a single parent household with kids and a second household with one parent (probably the father) living alone. This increases poverty and decreases the likely the children will succeed. So yes, marriage does benefit a man (until the children reach adulthood)......as long as he has any kind of evolutionary drive at all....

But marriage is not a necessity for what you claim, as you are neglecting to mention anything other than a) marriage or b) divorced/separated parents.

I was married for about 6 years and have a daughter from it, of whom I have custody. That point aside, that marriage and her mom, to be more specific, was more detrimental to the family structure, both emotionally and financially. Money missing, neglect of our child while I was working 12-16 hours a day, having affairs, etc. Combine that with the topper of a pretty nasty split and you can imagine how ed up my daughter is/was emotionally/developmentally.

I am now in another relationship, and we are foregoing marriage for the time being (living in sin, if you will). We own a house, run a successful business and have a second child together. We are seeing vast improvement in my daughter on all levels, as she her biological mother is more or less out of her life.

So, I can say that based on my personal experience, marriage, by default, does not trump every other family structure. Living unmarried, as if we were married, works perfectly fine for some of us.

I've noticed a lot of people who think the government shouldn't be involved in marriage and only recognize civil unions have no problem having the state recognize their marriage to get the benefits that come with it.

Originally Posted by IRHari I've noticed a lot of people who think the government shouldn't be involved in marriage and only recognize civil unions have no problem having the state recognize their marriage to get the benefits that come with it.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with that argument. Most people had no problems with until the gays wanted in.


As for the benefits of marriage. I'm somewhat mixed. I'm not at all religious, not at all into tradition, and I don't want kids period. So I don't care about it that much.

That said I think there is some benefit in terms of the symbolism of it, having extra incentive to work out problems in a relationship rather walking away when things get a little rough. That can be a plus. But when a relationship is really dead it's really dead marriage or not. In that case it's just extra hassle, and staying together can be worse on kids as outlined in the above post. So it's really a mixed bag for me and I just don't have a strong opinion on it.

There are legal perks to marriage, plus things like being able to get insurance through a spouse etc. Other than that I don't really see it. Since divorce is a hassle I guess it might make people more willing to work out differences, maybe.

Yea....I think there are 2 things going on here. The people who want gays to receive all the benefits of marriage as everyone else and then there is the people who just dont like marriage at all and dont want anyone to have it.

Not to be a dick Spooge but it looks like the act of marriage wasnt your problem...you just married the wrong person. Then you are furthering it by another "bad choice" in terms of marriage. (there is no bad choice in life....I am just talking about "how" marriages are suppose to go.


Seriously, I am not trying to be a dick I just want to point this out. You got married and had a child to with a person. After ONLY 6 years you deem her unfit for a family and get divorced (how long did you date before getting married?). 6 years isnt a long time dude...that probably means (unless something traumatic happened to her) she didnt actually change her personality that much. You probably should have never married her in the first place.......then to top it off you are now in a new relationship and have another child by someone you are not married to. I would like to know how long you have been with this new girl if you have a child, I bet you havent been with her that long.

No of this actually matters though...everyone is free to do whatever they want to try and make their life better, if its working for you then all means go for it. BUT in terms of marriage you have done it the completely wrong way. I just dont think you have a leg to stand on to "knock" marriage.

The problem with marriage is that America still wants to believe its some Disney story, just like sex and childbirth. Everyone wants to continue the lie and fantasy surrounding the event that they refuse to really teach and educate people on how hard it is, how important it is to be compatible in terms of raising the kids if they choose or life goals in general.

I dated by wife for 7 years before we got married because I only wanted to marry 1 person. I am not saying everyone should wait 7 years but this "we love each other" married after 2 or 3 years divorced after 5 has got to stop.

There are a lot of emotional and legal perks of getting married.

But I am not trying to say everyone should be married, everyone is free to do what they want.....I just think MOST people who get married do it the wrong way and then coming from a vindictive mindset claim that marriage is pointless...blah blah blah.

Again, I am not trying to knock Spooge but I grew up in the hoods of Detroit, "I married a girl...had a kid...she was crazy as hell so I divorced her, now I am with another girl and we have a kid but not getting married!?!?" Dude thats a ghetto soap opera that I have seen 10 season of. Your name might as well be pookey.

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Yeah, I do think people make a lot of mistakes when getting married. Be it getting married too young, getting married after not dating the person long enough, getting married before living together and making sure you're compatible (though some people have religious/moral inclinations against doing that) etc.

You really need to settled down and stable in your own life--stable career, set life goals and priorities, etc. before even thinking of marriage. And then you have to take your time and find someone who shares all those goals and is also compatible with you on every level.

Beyond that people have to understand that relationships are hard work. They won't work if you're not willing to work on them and make keeping the relationship strong your top priority in life.

I've had to long term relationships (8 years and 6ish years) sandwiched between a bunchy of shorter ones. I'm super glad I never married either of those women (was engaged to the first) as they just weren't right for me and I wasn't in a place of being ready to settle down and make that kind of commitment.

I'm getting closer to being in that place, but I'm in no hurry to get married. I'm not at all jaded about marriage, must indifferent for the reasons above. And I'm still mainly focused on figuring out where I want my career to go, where I want to settle down location wise (probably not where I am now) etc. And I won't seriously entertain marriage (regardless of how well my current relationship continues to develop) until that stuff is figured out.

Geez, it took you that long to figure out the woman wasn't right for you? Hell, my parents only dated a few months before they married and they've been together for about 30 years. If it takes years to figure out someone isn't right for you,m how much time did you actually spend together? 8 years is just nuts to me.

Taking away marriage for everyone would make everyone unhappy, and a lot of people even unhappier with gay people. Why on Earth would you want to instigate something like that?

Originally Posted by Clak Geez, it took you that long to figure out the woman wasn't right for you? Hell, my parents only dated a few months before they married and they've been together for about 30 years. If it takes years to figure out someone isn't right for you,m how much time did you actually spend together? 8 years is just nuts to me.

Everyone's different. With the 8 year relationship that was my highschool sweetheart. We started dating my sophomore year and dated all through college to the start of grad school. Lived together for over 3 years at the end etc. The main issue there was she just had lots of emotional issues, depression etc. that came and went. Things would be great for months, then shitty for a while. Just got sick of it after a while.

The six year one was really a case of being really good friends but just not right for each other as more than that. She was a grad school classmate. Just too much of a workaholic for me, not much interested in sex etc. But we were both so focused on school and then work that we didn't really care that the relationship was just good and not great and let it go on until she decided to move back to Taiwan. No way I was moving there for a relationship that was just ok.

Also given my age, life situation etc during the two long relationships there was a lot of change in both myself and the other person that affected the relationships.

Anyway, I've just never yet been super motivated to find "the one" and settle down and get married since I'm pretty self content, don't want kids etc. So I have a tendency to just stick in a relationships that are just alright for the convenience of regular sex, someone to hang out with etc. as I loathe the dating game.

That said, I'm digging the girl I've been dating for a couple months currently. We're a lot more on the same page on life goals, life styles etc. than anyone I've dated before. But I'm still in no hurry to rush things. I have no desire to marry someone unless I'm very confident we'll always be very happy together. I have no desire to be legally stuck in a "just ok" relationship or worse as I had too many friends and family who've been married for years to people they've long since lost any romantic spark for. I'd rather be single than stuck in that situation as at least then you can do whatever the hell you want.

Well, it's pretty hard to not be offended when my situation is being likened to ghetto trash. Common stereotype, although far from reality. I think homeownership in the number 2 school district in the region disproves that comparison, altough that is not the only thing that is non-ghetto. Multiple kids with multiple partners does not automatically equate to trash.

My point is, where I'm at now, the only benefit to "marriage" for us would be for taxes, insurance, etc. Our family structure and stability is phenomanal, and could rival those of married couples.

But getting way off point. There is just too much religious pull when it comes to government and marriage. The scenario I suggested would basically relabel marriage, but it would always be what is always has been. But as said, this will never happen, as the religious right would cry that their freedom is under attack, or something akin to that.

Originally Posted by Soodmeg There are a lot of emotional and legal perks of getting married. But I am not trying to say everyone should be married, everyone is free to do what they want.....I just think MOST people who get married do it the wrong way and then coming from a vindictive mindset claim that marriage is pointless...blah blah blah. Again, I am not trying to knock Spooge but I grew up in the hoods of Detroit, "I married a girl...had a kid...she was crazy as hell so I divorced her, now I am with another girl and we have a kid but not getting married!?!?" Dude thats a ghetto soap opera that I have seen 10 season of. Your name might as well be pookey.

Originally Posted by Clak Geez, it took you that long to figure out the woman wasn't right for you? Hell, my parents only dated a few months before they married and they've been together for about 30 years. If it takes years to figure out someone isn't right for you,m how much time did you actually spend together? 8 years is just nuts to me.

Its because I am smart and I thought about it logically instead of like an emotional dumbass.

We met my freshmen year of college thats 4 years....there is no way I would marry someone while still in college. Then after we graduated I decided I kinda wanted a real career to get going for stability as they said the number 1 thing that drives couples away from each other is arguing over money. I wanted to marry someone who could support themselves and I also wanted to be able to support myself as well. You know...real careers, she is a teacher so I didnt want to be working at god damn blockbuster while she was doing adult work.

I work in Television, one of the worst "careers" because of how completely hectic the hours are, the travel, the constant will I work again or not. It took me 2 years to even break even in my career and get good enough to even work on a regularly basis. Once I started working a lot we ran into the problem of what happens to almost ALL of production workers, I work 15 hours a day for weeks at a time....it took us 2 years to get to a place where we were comfortable with the fact that we would spend 90% of our time away from each other.

Yes I admit that my dating life was just a tad long but...it takes time to work out real life decisions. But I am completely confident that my wife and I will never get divorced because we went over every possible thing we could.

Personally, I was never ok with having more than 1 wife...I only wanted 1 so I was going to take as long as it took to make sure it would happen.

Originally Posted by sp00ge Well, it's pretty hard to not be offended when my situation is being likened to ghetto trash. Common stereotype, although far from reality. I think homeownership in the number 2 school district in the region disproves that comparison, altough that is not the only thing that is non-ghetto. Multiple kids with multiple partners does not automatically equate to trash. My point is, where I'm at now, the only benefit to "marriage" for us would be for taxes, insurance, etc. Our family structure and stability is phenomanal, and could rival those of married couples. But getting way off point. There is just too much religious pull when it comes to government and marriage. The scenario I suggested would basically relabel marriage, but it would always be what is always has been. But as said, this will never happen, as the religious right would cry that their freedom is under attack, or something akin to that.

That'd still be taking away what most people perceive to be a right. And when you take one away, more are sure to follow.

Again, not trying to rip you Spooge, your life your call, you do whatever you is right for you BUT...just because you choose the wrong person to marry the first time doesnt mean we should get rid of marriage. Using how crappy your ex wife is compared to how great your current relationship standards are is a pretty piss poor reason to want to do away with the concept of marriage for everyone. Thats the same mentality as the people you are fighting against..."dont like x get rid of it for everyone!!!"

The only point I am trying to make is that a vast majority of anti marriage people seem to either be people who have been divorced and hate their exes or people who claim they never want to get married. The same with over the top religious people who claim how precious marriage is yet they are also on their 3rd husband/wife and/or currently cheating on them.

Marriage is a great thing...humans are the problem here.

I love dmaul approach.

Get the government out of imposing morality, and people will be able to enter into whatever relationship they want and call it whatever they want.

Problem solved.

Originally Posted by Soodmeg Again, not trying to rip you Spooge, your life your call, you do whatever you is right for you BUT...just because you choose the wrong person to marry the first time doesnt mean we should get rid of marriage. Using how crappy your ex wife is compared to how great your current relationship standards are is a pretty piss poor reason to want to do away with the concept of marriage for everyone. Thats the same mentality as the people you are fighting against..."dont like x get rid of it for everyone!!!" The only point I am trying to make is that a vast majority of anti marriage people seem to either be people who have been divorced and hate their exes or people who claim they never want to get married. The same with over the top religious people who claim how precious marriage is yet they are also on their 3rd husband/wife and/or currently cheating on them. Marriage is a great thing...humans are the problem here. I love dmaul approach.

I'm not saying it should go away. Maybe my point was lost somewhere along the way. It should be modified, so that the field is level for everyone. Gay? Your approved. Straight? Approved! Instead of having the religious delegate their beliefs on the rest of us via the government. Church and state need to become seperate once again, as that is one of the main problems in this country today.


My statements about marriage not bring necessary were in response to Blaster Man's statement about marriage being the best option, vs divorced/seperated parents. I was pointing out that there are other situations that work out just as well as, if not better than, traditional marriage.