Originally Posted by dothog I've been harping on how WIIU is effectively unknown to current Wii owners for a while now not to troll, but to point out exactly that: it's the follow-up to one of Nintendo's most successful consoles, and people don't realize that. We're 60 days from launch and people still don't know. I know exactly 1 Wii family who knows what the WIIU is (and they know they're not buying, at least not at launch). Everybody else either doesn't know or has ridiculous questions that suggest they think the WIIU is an accessory, along the lines of "Does the iPad-thingie let me use the iPad apps?" (yes, that was real). I don't know how you can ignore these signs or pretend that Nintendo's playing a calculated game here. So much of the WIIU, whether it's the console, the library, or the marketing, is just all over the place or up in the air. Nintendo's still using these 60 days to figure out how they want to sell this. The recent release on Nintendoland needing the Network for effectively Miis only is a good example they're working out tactics through public announcements rather than having planned it out in advance (as they should -- they certainly had time for it). And to answer the point on there not being no network co-op play in Nintendoland: yes, I know it isn't a revelation to Nintendo fans, but I think it may be to many others. Especially given that the charge for the Nintendo Network places an emphasis on that feature and perhaps creates the expectation of online co-op play in notable titles. I don't offer it as a criticism of Nintendoland, I'm just pointing out that in drumming up "features" for the WIIU announcement, it's clear they didn't think it through. They should have anticipated that question rather than stammering their way through a response to it. Anyhow, if they're looking for grassroots/viral type stuff, they're stuck. If they have a plan, it's very delayed. No matter, I don't care how many GS pre-orders are out there, that's not nearly as much an indicator of future success as the current PR/marketing void. I guess the plan is for lightening to strike twice. Good luck with it, N.

You're being serious? They have marketing plans about a year out at this point. You may disagree with how Nintendo is handling the marketing and that's fine. Your opinion is your own but don't think that they're scrambling around like we need to figure out how to do this. That's ridiculous. It's beyond ridiculous.

Will the WiiU be as successful as the wii with everyone and their grandmother buying it? Probably not. But that doesn't mean they're just sitting on their thumbs hoping lightning strikes twice. You know how nintendo is marketing this? What are your bona fides?

I'm not worried about Nintendo's marketing strategy. The casuals that made the Wii a sales juggernaut weren't hyped about it two months before launch. It took holiday sell-outs by the Nintendo core and months of Al Roker waggling on morning tv for the thing to really go into overdrive.

We've already seen the core fan base rally. The rest will start falling into place. Don't expect 150 million console sales, but it will do just fine.

Originally Posted by Scobie I'm not worried about Nintendo's marketing strategy. The casuals that made the Wii a sales juggernaut weren't hyped about it two months before launch. It took holiday sell-outs by the Nintendo core and months of Al Roker waggling on morning tv for the thing to really go into overdrive.

That's not true. The example I point to a lot of the time is one of the Williams sisters and Conan playing Wii Sports on his show. I'm pretty sure that was outside of the two-month window, and that generated a lot of interest. But it wasn't just that, there was enough interest ahead of the launch for an entire South Park episode to be created about a console that hadn't launched yet. That didn't just spring up, the SP people had to have known about the console in advance for that to happen.

I guess if everything seems all to plan to the locals, there's nothing I can contribute. I don't see discussion here using facts/observations so much as weak-willed reassurance. Have at it. You've confused discussion with trollery, perhaps because if you engage the discussion honestly, there's a lot of evidence out there to suggest that Nintendo's hoping more than they are planning or creating a new experience. But I don't know, TVii could be a killer app.

Originally Posted by dothog That's not true. The example I point to a lot of the time is one of the Williams sisters and Conan playing Wii Sports on his show. I'm pretty sure that was outside of the two-month window, and that generated a lot of interest. But it wasn't just that, there was enough interest ahead of the launch for an entire South Park episode to be created about a console that hadn't launched yet. That didn't just spring up, the SP people had to have known about the console in advance for that to happen. I guess if everything seems all to plan to the locals, there's nothing I can contribute. I don't see discussion here using facts/observations so much as weak-willed reassurance. Have at it. You've confused discussion with trollery, perhaps because if you engage the discussion honestly, there's a lot of evidence out there to suggest that Nintendo's hoping more than they are planning or creating a new experience. But I don't know, TVii could be a killer app.

Well, the Conan v. Williams thing seemed to have happened a few months after the Wii was launched. (Feb 2007) http://www.joystiq.com/2007/02/02/co...in-wii-tennis/

Also, the South Park thing happened in November a few weeks before the Wii's launch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_God_Go

...I think Nintendo is focusing on the Christmas season and it's still September. The only Wii U advertisements I've seen have been in GameStop, so I suspect that they will have a big push as it gets closer to when kids will start figuring out what they want for Christmas.

Originally Posted by dothog That's not true. The example I point to a lot of the time is one of the Williams sisters and Conan playing Wii Sports on his show. I'm pretty sure that was outside of the two-month window, and that generated a lot of interest. But it wasn't just that, there was enough interest ahead of the launch for an entire South Park episode to be created about a console that hadn't launched yet. That didn't just spring up, the SP people had to have known about the console in advance for that to happen.

Did some research. That Conan episode happened in Feb 2007, three months after the release of the console. The South Park episode aired three weeks before the release of the Wii (which was part of the joke.)

Funny, but the announcements seem to mirror the announcements for Wii: release details in Sept for a November launch.

I guess you're right about the box design. Seeing the 3 of them together, it does look like par for the course. They are all boring looking.

Originally Posted by dothog I guess if everything seems all to plan to the locals, there's nothing I can contribute. I don't see discussion here using facts/observations so much as weak-willed reassurance. Have at it. You've confused discussion with trollery, perhaps because if you engage the discussion honestly, there's a lot of evidence out there to suggest that Nintendo's hoping more than they are planning or creating a new experience. But I don't know, TVii could be a killer app.

Nobody is calling you a troll. You always have pretty well-reasoned and interesting opinions around here.

Thing is, there is a groundswell happening... Penny Arcade has pretty much endorsed the thing, the general press reaction has shifted from Pachter-esque doom and gloom to a warm reception, even Pachter is impressed, pre-orders have sold out, the launch line-up is stellar and has created a lot of buzz, and we still don't even have all the system details yet.

Nintendo is doing just fine. Their biggest challenge will be ensuring there are enough consoles to go around for all markets.

There was a lot of similar doom and gloom when the Wii launched that countered a lot of the wide-eyed optimism.

At that time, I suggested strongly that we'd need to wait two years minimum to see what would happen. Those two years saw a few basic trends:

• the sell through was incredible, with shortages lasting a good while
• there was a good dosage of "late" third party support as they tried to play catch up
• the usual post-release drought interspersed with high profile 1st party games

Following that, the sales continued almost solely based on first party releases, with the occasional release from someone other than Nintendo directly. Third party support largely dwindled, which has always been a convoluted problem because the issue is multi-faceted (competing with Nintendo's own games, the games themselves being poorly made, no support from Nintendo in terms of advertising, a slew of shovelware clogging up the shelves, etc).

The deal though is that the sales continued largely until the end of 2011; it's really only been this year that they've dropped off, which again is the result of several things.

The Wii U is going to follow a similar path, at least initially. The sell-through for this year is almost all but absolutely guaranteed. Following that, it will depend almost entirely on first party games to drive further sales - the first 3D Mario, Retro's project, franchise titles, ultimately Smash Bros, etc. There may be a third party game here and there that ends up being exclusive, or at least a multiplatform title that helps keep the system in the gamer community's eyes.

We won't know how well it can perform until E3 2013 at the earliest, when it's likely that Sony and Microsoft will announce their next-gen systems. At that point, either third parties will move on with projects - most American based dev houses are already doing this - or they will continue to go after the established Wii U userbase (which will almost entirely depending on sheer mnumbers or hardware/software sold). If the former happens, then it's the Wii situation all over again, at which point you have to re-assess the market trends and see what is going on. If it's the latter, Nintendo is sitting fairly pretty.

The Wii's entire premise was disruption. The Wii U's is an alternate of this - shock and awe. Nintendo is betting on entering the market with at least a year without competition by dropping a new system in to re-invigorate the home market. Part of this strategy relies simply on "people want something new." Part of it relies on showcasing a unique interface. Part of it is trying to appeal to third parties more this time around; I suspect we'll see more Nintendo-as-publisher deals going down rather than hoping that a third party upholds their exclusivity agreement (think Capcom in the Gamecube era).

We can debate all we want right now, but we won't know for a year minimum, and really two years is more realistic. It's going to heavily hinge on when Sony and Microsoft are planning to release their systems, how well the Gamepad drives sales, and whether or not third parties start to feel more comfortable on a Nintendo system. If one of those things goes wrong but two go right, Nintendo is ok. If two or more go wrong, they are in trouble. I'm not counting on a three-for-three scenario.

I wouldn't start advertising until October at the earliest. The system is already getting sold out on pre-orders. I have no idea if that means the entire first run of production or is simple the pre-order production. Either way, it's going to have an installed base by December, and if third parties are smart, they'll get their best offers out on the table right now to get in on early adopter sales. You can decry this all you want as ports and whatnot, but faced with a brand new system, people WILL buy games, and Nintendo is leaving the door open (again, though not as brazenly as with the 3DS) for third parties to be successful.

They've also practically wrapped up Japan already, with Monster Hunter and Bayonetta. That's a big cornerstone of their strategy; we'll see how it pays off. A lot of people have noticed that Nintendo seems to be aggressively hunting down franchises that started on the NES/SNES - Shin Megami Tensei, Dragon Quest, etc - and trying to bolster it with some modern day hardcore titles (again, Bayonetta).

Come back in a year and we'll talk.

Too… many… words….

I laugh at the people that make the argument that since the controller costs half of the entire package, the console must be crap. Let's look at the current Wii being sold:

Cost New: MSRP $140
Stuff included:
Wii
Motion Plus controller (MSRP $40)
Nunchuck (MSRP $20)
Sensor Bar (MSRP $20)
Wii Sports (MSRP $20)
Wii Sports Resort (MSRP $40)
Total MSRP not including console: $140

Conclusion: OMG, the Wii must be worth $0!!!!

Strell, you're soothing like Gold Bond medicated powder. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Originally Posted by crunchewy Too… many… words….

So sorry that you find these waters to be deeper than the OTT.

Strell - get your bullshit well reasoned posts out of here and create some more lyrical paeans to El Hoardo!

By the way, I'm still waiting for mine.

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On another note, I don't think dothog is a troll. I just don't understand how he could with a straight face tell us that he doesn't think Nintendo knows their marketing strategy yet for the next 60 days. This is a japanese company we're talking about. They probably have the next 500 years mapped out like Harry Selden. (Geek reference for y'all.) Like I said, they might get it wrong (but seriously, Nintendo are masters at marketing) but there's no way they don't have one.

Originally Posted by KillerRamen I dunno... I think it looks like pretty standard.

When I read the comments a page back I actaully went and googled those packaging images as I was about to post the same thing I think the Wii U's text is placed that best though. Easiest to find what critical information needs to be read the quickest without any visual clutter, the signature of this current culture's packaging design.

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Also from the preorder thread I guess Sir Fragalot had similar Target in store preordering experience.

Reggie will certainly do a tour of the usual TV shows closer to launch time and give out units (or at least games) to members of the audience. Jimmy Fallon may give the system an entire segment. Ellen too.

Nice post Strell. I do have a question though. What is the best way to support the WiiU in regards to keeping third parties interested? I pre-ordered a deluxe system last Thursday morning at Gamestop and intend to purchase 2, maybe 3, games. One will definitely be NSMBU. For the remaining games, I have several in mind but am currently undecided. Will third parties respond more to purchases of older games (Batman: Arkham City; ME3), Nintendo published titles (Bayonetta 2), new shared third party titles (ACIII; COD-BO II; Aliens: Colonial Marines) or new exclusive third party titles (Rayman Legends; Lego City Undercover)?

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For anyone who is enthusiastic about video games in general, and game design in particular, the WiiU is going to be an eventual purchase. You may not get one at launch, you may wait to pick one up after a price drop, but you will eventually get one. And here are the reasons...

1. It is a Nintendo console
and thus is the only way to continue playing Nintendo first-party software. Nintendo games will always be one of the best reasons for buying Nintendo systems. They still haven't lost their touch, and as long as that development magic persists, their first-party offerings are going to be justification for a separate hardware spec.

2. It has unique hardware that comes with the basic system
and this means that we are going to be seeing some unique game experiences for the system. They may end up being few and far between, but WiiU-specific games are going to exist. There's always some developer willing to take a risk on designing software around the system's specific hardware. While Microsoft and Sony have been much more tame in their approach to their basic system hardware, Nintendo has been much riskier with the Wii and now the WiiU.

Woah, Rayman is exclusive? I had heard they were considering other platforms. This makes me a lot more interested on picking that up

Originally Posted by Cap'n_RDM Nice post Strell. I do have a question though. What is the best way to support the WiiU in regards to keeping third parties interested?

Unfortunately, this is a difficult answer. It isn't difficult to come up with the answer, it's just that the content of the answer is an up-hill slog.

Nintendo needs to prove that modern "core" gamers will buy games on the Wii.

When I say "core" I mean the modern, Call of Duty-loving, Madden-playing, Halo-obsessed Dude-Bro. The current 3rd-party development scene is geared toward catering to this specific crowd. And this is exactly the kind of audience that the Wii failed to cater to. There were numerous instances of games ostensibly targeted toward this demographic on the Wii that tanked financially.

With the WiiU, Nintendo needs to get those kinds of games on the system, and then have them shift comparable numbers to the 360 and PS3. That is a fairly hefty challenge. A lot of that crowd is already content with their current gaming setup, and is not likely to shift over to the WiiU.

Nintendo's best bet is to try to cater to "lapsed" gamers. This was a crowd that was initially strong supporters of the Wii. It often consists of young families, parents who grew up playing Nintendo but had abandoned the hobby over time. This crowd is an easy sell for the WiiU, and could help to support sales of more 3rd-party friendly software.

Ultimately, the issue isn't with Nintendo, but with 3rd-party developers and the rut they've driven themselves into. 3rd party development never took off properly on the Wii because no 3rd party developer understood the appeal of the system as well as Nintendo did. They took the wrong lessons from the examples that Nintendo provided and missed the boat.

Originally Posted by Richard Kain For anyone who is enthusiastic about video games in general, and game design in particular, the WiiU is going to be an eventual purchase. You may not get one at launch, you may wait to pick one up after a price drop, but you will eventually get one. And here are the reasons... 1. It is a Nintendo console and thus is the only way to continue playing Nintendo first-party software. Nintendo games will always be one of the best reasons for buying Nintendo systems. They still haven't lost their touch, and as long as that development magic persists, their first-party offerings are going to be justification for a separate hardware spec. 2. It has unique hardware that comes with the basic system and this means that we are going to be seeing some unique game experiences for the system. They may end up being few and far between, but WiiU-specific games are going to exist. There's always some developer willing to take a risk on designing software around the system's specific hardware. While Microsoft and Sony have been much more tame in their approach to their basic system hardware, Nintendo has been much riskier with the Wii and now the WiiU.

I mostly agree but they are really treading on thin ice with reason #1. It is hard for anyone to argue that the latest versions of their major franchises were anything more than retreads of prior versions. I'll give a pass to SMG2 since it was a direct sequel and probably the best Mario game they have ever made but the others haven't been that impressive (although they are still good to great games, generally).

I guess by now you know what to expect and it's either good enough to justify the purchase or not. For me, the latest Mario used to be enough but now I need to see at least 4-5 first party core games before I'll bite.

Originally Posted by Javery I mostly agree but they are really treading on thin ice with reason #1.

While this might be true for you, for Nintendo as a whole it is not a risk at all.

Nintendo is not just the master of selling nostalgia. They are also the master of keeping their brands fresh for new generations. They are very good at selling Mario, Metroid, Kirby, Zelda, etc, to the children of today, as well as the children of yesteryear.

The die-hard example of this strategy in action is Pokemon. By the standards of any other gaming franchise, Pokemon should have died out half a decade ago. Instead it is still going strong, and selling better than ever. And its NOT because its original audience is still playing it. Babies-first-RPG is simply finding new babies to cater to.

Nintendo's first party offerings are their bedrock. It is the sturdy foundation that can keep the company going strong even through the lean times. Fiddling around with bizarre hardware is a more modern wrinkle that they are experimenting with. But at the end of the day, their first-party development is what really supports the company.