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I thought we could add additional discussions besides ones that just focus on specific games.

Downloading Music vs Pirating Games: Is there a difference?

I'm sure a vast majority of gamers have done one or both, but are there any differences between the two?
Do you feel guilty about doing one, while the other is acceptable in your mind? Why?

If pirating games was as quick and easy as downloading music, do you think game sales would suffer?

A war is brewing between individuals and the copyright corporations.

Even the term "piracy" is a huge victory for them. It equates copyright infringement with theft, rape and murder.

For an example of the damage the corporations are doing, see this slashdot article.

Personally, I believe the RIAA effectively declared war on consumers the moment they decided to sue copyright infringers, and manufacture discs that appear to be CDs but do not follow the redbook standard.

Are we headed for an all-out war with games too? Hard to say; game companies traditionally use technological measures rather than legal ones to curb piracy, but with online gaming... only time will tell.

When I download games, I tend to feel guilty. On the other hand, I have no qualms whatsoever with downloading music. Why? I don't feel ripped off when I pay for a game.

First and foremost, it's important to note that I'm a cheapass. That goes without saying here, though.

When I buy a game, the amount of entertainment I get for my money is pretty dang good. When I find a game like Fallout for $1.25 (part of a combo pack at Target a few months back), I'm happy. The game keeps me busy for hours, and it seems like a great use of my money.

I tend to get much less entertainment from a CD that, in most cases, costs more than most of the games I buy. Part of it is the "there's only one good track" syndrome, where you end up realizing that most of the CD actually sucks. The thing that burns me most about CDs, though, is feeling ripped off. No matter how much I like Weezer, I'm going to be pissed when I buy a CD that has barely a half hour of music on it. If the CD is longer but full of filler, I'm going to be just as mad. I've paid for something, and I don't want crap - I want good music, damn it!

The fact that the RIAA has completely overreacted whereas the computer industry has done little is also a factor. Why would I support an organization that sues schoolgirls and grandparents for thousands of dollars of "damages" that the RIAA recoups in about a day's time?

As a result of all of the above, I only burn games occasionally, and tend to pay for most of what I want. When it comes to music, though...it's safe to say that more than half of the CDs I own aren't ones that I've paid retail for. Used, presents, burned...as long as the RIAA isn't getting my money, I'm happy.

Until music prices drop, I'm going to continue burning and downloading music.

My $.02

Having worked in the game industry and seeing the blood, sweat, and tears that go into making the great games that people love it really sucks to see someone just download it. For me and the games I worked on, it's almost like a personal attack... as if I was going to your house and stealing shit from it.

Say you worked on re-building an old American muscle car, an old Mustang, and you spent two years of your time working on it and making it the best you could. Then some guy walks in and steals your car after you finish and expects you to not give a shit. I'm not an expert in rhetoric so I don't know if the analogy holds, but that is pretty much how it feels.

After having that experience I have bought every game I have played (besides rentals and such, of course) -- if a good game comes out, I want to support the developers who produced it so that more good games of that nature continue to come out. If piracy keeps growing to a point that there will be no financial incentive to producing games, developers will obviously stop. No more games = no good. Maybe the business model needs to be revisited, I don't know, clearly it will have to to crack the Chinese market.

Any way you look at the issue it is stealing something a lot of people worked very hard on. Movies and music are the same thing. I don't necessarily agree with the tactics they are employing to enforce their copyrights, and I completely understand the shitty ripped off feeling of watching or listening to crap, but it is no different than a game.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

I don't do either. I get CDs from the local public library :).

BIG difference. Here's why:

Music: I cannot think of one recording company that has even tried to put copyright protection on its CDs. Can they? Yes. Is it expensive? Not really. Do they? No. Plus, the fact that they've waited so long to take action really puts the RIAA in a tough spot. It falls into the category of "salutary neglect", kind of like how England lost possession of the American colonies. Besides, reports show that album sales have _increased_ since file sharing gained popularity. Kind of ironic that the recording bigwigs want to end that trend.

Games: Game manufacturers don't deserve to be ripped off because they actually make a good attempt to stop piracy. There are two categories, though - current games and old-school games. There's really no excuse to pirate current games. I was dumb enough to burn a couple of PC games a friend lent me several years ago, thinking I was so slick, but I could have easily tried them at my friend's house without violating any laws (I am pleased to note that I ended up buying the retail versions of both those games within three weeks). I think vintage games are a bit different, however - the publisher's don't make money anymore from games on systems like the NES, Genesis, etc. Sure, the used game stores may lose business, but they don't technically hold the rights to the games, so they're not really entitled to any profit from selling them. On the other hand, if a publisher decides to rerelease these old-school games, like the Namcomuseums, you're not entitled to free roms of those games.

Conclusion: Downloading music or current games is like flicking a cigarette out your window - it's illegal, but it's unlikely that you'll be punished. Downloading games is fine unless you can buy them new. If you download music or current games that you really like, though, purchase the retail versions so you don't feel guilty.

Originally Posted by Mulliga I don't do either. I get CDs from the local public library .

I do that too...and then I burn them.

To technic: I understand that it's stealing, and I've known that for years. As far as the amount of work involved...that argument doesn't seem to hold up as well for music. Looking at the credits of a game, there are usually many involved - programmers, artists, composers, department heads...the list goes on.

When it comes to CDs...who else besides the band is involved? Beyond a few behind the scenes positions (engineering, mastering, etc.), there's not very many people. Definitely not as many as work on a game.

I probably didn't make my position clear, so let's try this again. I tend not to download games because I feel guilty when I do. When I burn a CD, I don't feel bad for anyone. So, I pay for games and I don't pay for music. Simple as that.

I know that I'm probably completely wrong in my arguements. If so...prove it. I love a good debate.

I buy my CDs and video games. I play NES and SNES games on my emulators, but I don't really consider that pirating since it's been a while since both have been discontinued

I download music, but through this downloading I have gotten into new types of music and have bought CD's. A lot does go into making a CD and if you don't pay attention to your contract, you are basically getting raped.
They are starting to put copy protection on CD's. Anthony Hamilton's CD has it but it's REALLY easy to break, you simply hold shift.
I don't really feel different about dl'ding games. They need to put more demo's out to let you try it out.

Originally Posted by st0neface I buy my CDs and video games. I play NES and SNES games on my emulators, but I don't really consider that pirating since it's been a while since both have been discontinued

I feel that I'm not supporting any of the developers by buying used games, so why bother? That said, I don't use emulators anyway.

As for music, although I don't DL any, I have no problem with it since you can get the same thing on a radio. (Which I do use, rather than DLing music)

As for pirating games, if me calling people all over the boards an asshole for pirating games isn't enough, well, then, you suck!

Originally Posted by video_gamer324 BIG difference. Here's why: I cannot think of one recording company that has even tried to put copyright protection on its CDs. Can they? Yes. Is it expensive? Not really. Do they? No.

Yes, they do.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

Tell me if you need more.

Originally Posted by technic Say you worked on re-building an old American muscle car, an old Mustang, and you spent two years of your time working on it and making it the best you could. Then some guy walks in and steals your car after you finish and expects you to not give a shit. I'm not an expert in rhetoric so I don't know if the analogy holds, but that is pretty much how it feels.

The analogy doesn't hold. Not even close.

If I "steal your car" you no longer have your car.

The analogy is fine if you add that you planned on selling the car once it was completed.

I've been reading this interesting book called "Prisoner's Dilemma" by William Poundstone. It's about the life of John von Neumann who was one of the principal mathematicians who invented game theory. It gives an example of a case of prisoner's dilemma which fits this context exactly:

"The most common type of prisoner's dilemma in everyday life is the 'free rider dilemma.' This is a prisoner's dilemma with many, rather than just two, players. The name refers to the dilemma confronting public transit riders. It's late at night, and there's no one in the subway station. Why not just hop over the turnstiles and save yourself the fare? But remember, if everyone hopped the turnstiles, the subway system would go broke, and no one would be able to get anywhere." (Poundstone, 126)

Obviously this can be applied to pirating and many pirates use it as an excuse as to why their single case of pirating doesn't matter. He continues:

"It is the easiest thing in the world to rationalize hopping the turnstiles. What's the chance that your lost fare will bankrupt the subway system? Virtually zero ... but if everybody thinks this way ... Since there will always be people who 'get away with' not paying, the others are suckers who pay full fare but ride a poorly maintained subway because of the revenue lost to turnstile hopping." (Poundstone, 126-127)

I don't want my games to become "poorly maintainted subway"'s, hehe I know it sounds silly, so I support the game companies that make games that I like and hope that most of others will do the same thing. Anyways, the book is an interesting read and I suggest it to anyone interested in mathematical analysis of social considerations.

Originally Posted by defender The analogy is fine if you add that you planned on selling the car once it was completed.

Only if by "pirating games" you mean stealing CDs off the shelves.

When it comes to downloading music or games I think it all boils down to the Robbin Hood effect:

Because people are stealing from multi-million dollar companies they feel justified or at least okay about doing it.

It's difficult to feel sorry for someone who sings one song and makes millions while our school teachers are struggling to get paid at the end of the week. It is even worse when the millionaires complain about it. The South Park episode that makes fun of that is a good example.


If "piracy" was stealing from your neighbor it probably wouldn't be so prevelant.

Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.

Originally Posted by jasonditz Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.

Taking something that wasn't given to you and that you didn't pay for is stealing. Period.

Originally Posted by eldad9 Yes, they do. Exhibit A Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Tell me if you need more.

I stand corrected. Hooray for the companies and CDs you mentioned that are now beginning to copyright-protect their music.

Originally Posted by video_gamer324 I stand corrected. Hooray for the companies and CDs you mentioned that are now beginning to copyright-protect their music.

Quite. Hooray for the companies that hassle honest folk, misrepresent their products as CDs when in fact they are not, make CDs that don't play on some CD players, and don't do anything whatsoever to prevent copyright infringement.