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I think a real benefit to the "magical" transportation to the 50s was to see all of the cast play wildly different characters-- I mean who didn't at least think "Hey, that's neat" when they saw Armin Shimmerman without makeup, playing a human?
I mean, I guess I can't sell you benefits of Holodeck type episodes since some of them were tragically overdone or misused, but I would call Far Beyond the Stars a cut above the rest, at least for the simple fact it had something meaningful to say.

I have a tough time with Far Beyond the Stars.

On the one hand, the episode itself is gorgeous, well-acted, interesting, and compelling. Seeing the actors do something different is great because it's not as hammy as Mirror Universe stuff, nor as meta or gimmicky as the holodeck. Also unlike some of those episodes, it's still rooted in the idea of science fiction rather than wish-fulfillment, outright fantasy, or technological masturbation. Like dothog, I don't watch DS9 to see period dramas, historical fiction, or intellectually lazy things like visiting the present day era. I want science fiction in my sci-fi, dammit. I feel, though, that by making Sisko and DS9 part of the story in the past and being a commentary on the notion of science fiction and dreams of the future that it's not just the same old holo-bullshit.

I just don't quite get a number of things about it. For the vast majority of DS9, Sisko's race is a non-issue. That makes it hard to understand why the Prophets would choose this particular story as a means to impart wisdom to him, or what exactly he was supposed to get out of it. Sisko was thinking of resigning because a friend died and the Prophets serve up an Afterschool Special? How does this experience help with that trauma? It is affirming of Sisko's struggles and position, but it's almost a non-sequitur. And how does inserting themselves into the story and talking about the "true path" fit?

(I don't even want to get into the minefield of what the Prophets would make of racism, or why they would go back to the 1940s. They have no concept of time, so is racism something they associate with Sisko in the present? That isn't supported by anything in the series. Is it important to their understanding of The Sisko? If not, why are they showing it to him?)

I feel the episode is on the edge of brilliance, especially with the idea that everything may just be a dream inside Benny's mind. The problem I have is that, like just about everything else with the Prophets, they decided to hint and suggest without any substance, explanation, or reason behind it.

You end the episode, wondering what exactly they mean by "he is the dreamer and the dream" and thinking this is probably Important or will be followed up on or something. But no. It's more Mystery of the Prophets(tm) that doesn't have to mean anything.

I guess that's more of my frustration that the Prophets were made up as they went along, with no intention of ever having some sort of payoff or, for that matter, coherence. It makes them feel even more like a plot device or that they were shoehorned into the script for this episode on the second or third draft.

Also, I think it needs to be said: for an episode whose major point was Racism is Bad, it's kind of sad that the women got stuck with little more than cliches and dismissal. You can't just say it was the time, either, since that's kind of the point of the episode.

This sounds harder on it than I meant to come across. I do quite enjoy the episode, and consider it in the same league (both in terms of quality and theme) as The Inner Light and The Visitor. It's not like The Inner Light was critical to later TNG episodes, nor did it have to be.

It's just that those episodes were obviously self-contained. This one hinted at being a bit more and, by failing to deliver on that promise, ended up feeling like a little bit less.

Well, I would personally make the argument that the prophets (who assumedly know everything going on in this guy's head) picked race because it was something sensitive to Sisko (I point to the episode where Vic is having problems with the casino, and Sisko was uninterested because the time period was racist) I see the lesson to Sisko being that, even in the face of overwhelming odds, you can't give in. I honestly do see the parallel betwen that, and Sisko staying in to see the end of the Dominion War/his path as laid out by the prophets.

And I'm not sure of the criticism for the part of the episode dealing with the woman episode. I thought the whole point was that she had to use a man's name to get her work published, and that was bad. Were you wanting that character to revolt against the bullshit as well?

I dunno, I see this as a strength... to integrate this kind of story into a sci-fi show. I don't want it all the time, but once in a blue moon? Huge fan when it's pulled off. But I'm a fan of something becoming more than it is, though (I always root when Robin Williams or even Adam Sandler of all people pull off fantastic drama, etc)

I think the prophets had more to do with introducing him into a different world while still existing in his own. They harped on not understanding a linear life. Race was just something that was relevant to the 1960's Sisko.

Originally Posted by blandstalker I have a tough time with Far Beyond the Stars. On the one hand, the episode itself is gorgeous, well-acted, interesting, and compelling. Seeing the actors do something different is great because it's not as hammy as Mirror Universe stuff, nor as meta or gimmicky as the holodeck. Also unlike some of those episodes, it's still rooted in the idea of science fiction rather than wish-fulfillment, outright fantasy, or technological masturbation. Like dothog, I don't watch DS9 to see period dramas, historical fiction, or intellectually lazy things like visiting the present day era. I want science fiction in my sci-fi, dammit. I feel, though, that by making Sisko and DS9 part of the story in the past and being a commentary on the notion of science fiction and dreams of the future that it's not just the same old holo-bullshit. I just don't quite get a number of things about it. For the vast majority of DS9, Sisko's race is a non-issue. That makes it hard to understand why the Prophets would choose this particular story as a means to impart wisdom to him, or what exactly he was supposed to get out of it. Sisko was thinking of resigning because a friend died and the Prophets serve up an Afterschool Special? How does this experience help with that trauma? It is affirming of Sisko's struggles and position, but it's almost a non-sequitur. And how does inserting themselves into the story and talking about the "true path" fit? (I don't even want to get into the minefield of what the Prophets would make of racism, or why they would go back to the 1940s. They have no concept of time, so is racism something they associate with Sisko in the present? That isn't supported by anything in the series. Is it important to their understanding of The Sisko? If not, why are they showing it to him?) I feel the episode is on the edge of brilliance, especially with the idea that everything may just be a dream inside Benny's mind. The problem I have is that, like just about everything else with the Prophets, they decided to hint and suggest without any substance, explanation, or reason behind it. You end the episode, wondering what exactly they mean by "he is the dreamer and the dream" and thinking this is probably Important or will be followed up on or something. But no. It's more Mystery of the Prophets(tm) that doesn't have to mean anything. I guess that's more of my frustration that the Prophets were made up as they went along, with no intention of ever having some sort of payoff or, for that matter, coherence. It makes them feel even more like a plot device or that they were shoehorned into the script for this episode on the second or third draft. Also, I think it needs to be said: for an episode whose major point was Racism is Bad, it's kind of sad that the women got stuck with little more than cliches and dismissal. You can't just say it was the time, either, since that's kind of the point of the episode. This sounds harder on it than I meant to come across. I do quite enjoy the episode, and consider it in the same league (both in terms of quality and theme) as The Inner Light and The Visitor. It's not like The Inner Light was critical to later TNG episodes, nor did it have to be. It's just that those episodes were obviously self-contained. This one hinted at being a bit more and, by failing to deliver on that promise, ended up feeling like a little bit less.

The dreamer IMO means Benny, dreaming of a better future. Sisko is the dream, he's what Benny hopes for. I guess they were saying that Benny and Sisko were one and the same. They were both dreaming of a better future, just for different reasons.

Can we all agree that Kira as the intendent, was a straight ho?

Originally Posted by davo1224 Can we all agree that Kira as the intendent, was a straight ho?

Yes we can, I would hit that shit so hard then I would toss some gold pressed latinum to Seven and tell her to suck my dick

Originally Posted by Clak The dreamer IMO means Benny, dreaming of a better future. Sisko is the dream, he's what Benny hopes for. I guess they were saying that Benny and Sisko were one and the same. They were both dreaming of a better future, just for different reasons.

It isn't actually that simple. In one interview....maybe the one on the "Captain's Log" box set, You will find this is actually a race based episode, at the very least to him, and he played the role that way. Avery Brooks is very deeply emotional when it comes to the history of Blacks in America, and this episode absolutely is out of the norm for Trek.....why?

First, get in the head of someone living in this mythical show, and its time and circumstances.

It's deep in the 23rd Century, and in "Trek Universe", race hasn't been any kind of issue for Black humans for 400 years.

Look at TOS. Uhura is on the bridge. Her race NEVER comes up in the story of the show. WHY?

BECAUSE EVERYONE IS PAST IT! IT DOESNT MAKE A FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE! EVERYONE IS PERFECTLY EQUAL!! People no longer dwell on the dark past. They remember it to prevent it from happening again, but it doesn't haunt their dreams. On several occasions in DS9, Sisko talks about how hard they worked, "our people's history" in reference to slavery and civil rights movement. IF we were talking about a VERY early Star Trek where the utopia is starting, after The Vulcans landed, you might have an episode.

The entire premise of Star Trek as a show is to show what could theoritically be possible(but I doubt humans will EVER achieve, we like conflict too much), if ever one puts aside all their differences and works together. Brooks, is a great actor(and very odd in real life like all the best ones), but should have left Trek to be Trek.

Originally Posted by 6er It isn't actually that simple. In one interview....maybe the one on the "Captain's Log" box set, You will find this is actually a race based episode, at the very least to him, and he played the role that way. Avery Brooks is very deeply emotional when it comes to the history of Blacks in America, and this episode absolutely is out of the norm for Trek.....why? First, get in the head of someone living in this mythical show, and its time and circumstances. It's deep in the 23rd Century, and in "Trek Universe", race hasn't been any kind of issue for Black humans for 400 years. Look at TOS. Uhura is on the bridge. Her race NEVER comes up in the story of the show. WHY? BECAUSE EVERYONE IS PAST IT! IT DOESNT MAKE A FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE! EVERYONE IS PERFECTLY EQUAL!! People no longer dwell on the dark past. They remember it to prevent it from happening again, but it doesn't haunt their dreams. On several occasions in DS9, Sisko talks about how hard they worked, "our people's history" in reference to slavery and civil rights movement. IF we were talking about a VERY early Star Trek where the utopia is starting, after The Vulcans landed, you might have an episode. The entire premise of Star Trek as a show is to show what could theoritically be possible(but I doubt humans will EVER achieve, we like conflict too much), if ever one puts aside all their differences and works together. Brooks, is a great actor(and very odd in real life like all the best ones), but should have left Trek to be Trek.

You're mad that race entered into Star Trek, seriously? How dare that 24th century black captain be aware of human history, how dare he I say!. That's just sad, man.

That 3 FRAME (NOT seconds
clip was a slap in the face...what the !?!?!

TOS had plenty of racial episodes. The obvious one has the aliens who are painted half black and half white, and they hate the ones who have the colors on the opposite sides... I believe (not home, can't look this up) it was the result of network sensors but it made racism look as ridiculous and arbitrary as it is. The one where they beam up Lincoln and he calls Uhura a negress to her face, then apologizes. I'm sure there are others. The core of Star Trek was always about the issues of the day and giving us a better future without the barriers we have today, that's exactly what that DS9 episode does.

Originally Posted by 6er It's deep in the 23rd Century, and in "Trek Universe", race hasn't been any kind of issue for Black humans for 400 years.

"Far Beyond the Stars" took place in 2374. You're saying race ceased being any sort of issue beyond 1974?

Sisko never brought up racial issues in a present-day context. The only time it's expressly brought up is when someone asks him to go see Vic Fontaine (which is the real stinker we should be talking about). In the Benny storyline, it was only when the prophets brought him back in time and to a different life. Having him be considered crazy and the oppression due to being black, was part of the struggle with the evil spirits.

Originally Posted by davo1224 Sisko never brought up racial issues in a present-day context. The only time it's expressly brought up is when someone asks him to go see Vic Fontaine (which is the real stinker we should be talking about).

And I would argue that after his experience in Benny's shoes, he has become more sensitive to the historic racial issues. He never said as such in the episode, but that was always my take on it.

Just to clarify, I meant that Vic Fontaine was a stinker, not Sisko's apprehension of a black person in the 1960's.

Well this is no surprise.......
http://ent.trekcore.com/bluray/10062...blurumors.html

I'm glad for that, more Trek on Blu is a good thing, and I guess it in hopes that it supports DS9 being remastered (though Enterprise on Blu is pretty far removed from the remastering process)

Originally Posted by Friend of Sonic I'm glad for that, more Trek on Blu is a good thing, and I guess it in hopes that it supports DS9 being remastered (though Enterprise on Blu is pretty far removed from the remastering process)

Yeah, based on that article, making Enterprise on Blu-Ray is as simple as printing discs (minus the adding new content)

I liked how they said that if they re did the effects to 1080p, it would look too perfect compared to upresing from 720p. Honestly it would have been nice for them to release enterprise on BR last year for the tenth anniversary of the show, then TNG for 25th this year, then DS9 for next year for the tenth and finally Voyager in 2015 for the tenth.

So Trekcore had an interview, and if I understand right, the extended cut of The Measure of a Man is going to be in proper HD with the original film negatives. I was under the impression they were going to splice in the VHS footage in with the remastered episode, but it sounds like they got it all 100% composited from the negatives. ing amazing.

http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/cbs_adamsgrant2.html