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Originally Posted by slowdive21 I think you are missing the point. I am not saying the audience is necessarily the same people. I am saying the sucessful sales from Anime films like Akira and others are what made US publishers more open to other Anime titles like DBZ and Pokemon. Ninja Scroll was released in 1993 in Japan. We watched it in PAL format in the original Japanese in early 1994 if I remember correctly. The NTSC MANGA ENTERTAINMENT US release was June 1995 (because we wrote letters to MANGA to add it to their catalogue...At least that's what we would like to think. The June 1995 date is direct from the MANGA.com website who released ninja scroll. Thanks for playing.

Successful sales? Anime was far more niche then than it is now - I'd hardly sales to the incredibly small anime fan base back then "successful." Simply put, the financial success of Dragonball and Pokemon in Japan is what attracted US publishers to them - they would have been released in America regardless of the existence of films like Akira, Ninja Scroll, and Ghost in the Shell. Those may be the titles that engaged a small group of us back in the day, but they are not what caused the anime boom. If anything, those films ensured that America kept getting the same violent, substanceless garbage (compared to the variety we have now, anyways) that anime was known for back then.

One thing I will give you credit for, though, is Ninja Scroll's US release date - IMDB and Wikipedia need to be updated.

I'm from back in the day and I have to say Lemon isn't saying anything incorrect.

I remember the con scene pre and post pokemon. It was like a totally different universe.

Everyone knows DBZ but Ninja Scroll is only really well known amongst the older crowd.

I would have to say that Vampire Hunter D being shown dubbed on TBS late nights along with Robot Carnival also had a huge impact on getting a lot of young adults into anime.

VHD has a release date of 1993 according to IMDB.

Other anime I recall from the time: Devil Hunter Yoko, Ninja Scroll, Guyver, BubbleGum Crisis, Doomed Megaloposis, and of course Akira.

I forgot about VHD and Guyver...They go on the list too. Actually they used to show Anime on Public acess uncut and with subs in chicago too. I remember seeing doomed Meagalopoils on TV before seeing DBZ in the US.

Originally Posted by Kirin Lemon Successful sales? Anime was far more niche then than it is now - I'd hardly sales to the incredibly small anime fan base back then "successful."

Said by a person who clearly does not understand business. Sales have to start somewhere. Ninja Scroll, Akira, VHD, and GITS are still among the best selling Anime of all time. (According to anime news network's data of US Anime sales). Their data does not include VHS sales. So the actual numbers will be higher for all of the movies I mentioned above. Pretty good for 'substanceless garbage', Wouldn't you say?!

If anything, those films ensured that America kept getting the same violent, substanceless garbage (compared to the variety we have now, anyways) that anime was known for back then.

Isn't DBZ violent subatanceless garbage? I enjoy DBZ as much as the next person, but I think it would easily fit in that category.

I have only watched a few episodes of pokemon, but isn't the concept about capturing animals and forcing them to fight? Or is violence against animals ok? At least ninja scroll has some references to Japanese history as well as Japanese legend.

One thing I will give you credit for, though, is Ninja Scroll's US release date - IMDB and Wikipedia need to be updated.

Most educated people know wikipedia is not a valid source. I would not recommend referencing them as a source for information.

Holy crap, I almost missed out on the $8.99 volumes of Tenjho Tenge at Rightstuf. They have low quantities on every disc. I only needed 3-8 (and they were missing volume 6), but at least I got most of them. I also got Gilgamesh vol. 5 and Last Exile vol. 3. I thnk Ergo Proxy is the last major thing I want to complete from Geneon now. I already have volume 1, I just need the rest.

I love Vampire Hunter D.

So glad there is a manga now. I just wish it'd come out faster. I'm surprised it's actually coming out in US first before Japan lol.

Japan's Spring televised Anime season is looking REALLY good...

Allison and Lillia 04/03
Macross Frontier 04/03
Nabari no Ou 04/06
Vampire Knight 04/07
Monochrome Factor 04/07
Real Drive (RD Sennou Chousashitsu)
Himitsu: Top Secret 04/08
Soul Eater 04/07
Golgo 13 04/11
Crystal Blaze (aka Glass Maiden)
Nijuu Menzou Musume 04/12
The Tower of Druaga: The Aegis of Uruk 04/04
Blassreiter 04/05


Mainly looking forward to Macross, Vampire Knight, and Golgo 13.

I really can't wait for Kyoto Animation to either make the next Full Metal Panic series or the next Haruhi series. Maybe I just need to give more new anime a try, cause I haven't really been excited by a lot that's been coming out lately. Like I said, I didn't even think about giving Gurren Lagann a try until it was all said and done and I wish I gave it a try sooner.

Always up for more Macross, and I'm reading the Vampire Knight manga now. It's not bad, but nothing I really want to see animated.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 Said by a person who clearly does not understand business. Sales have to start somewhere. Ninja Scroll, Akira, VHD, and GITS are still among the best selling Anime of all time. (According to anime news network's data of US Anime sales). Their data does not include VHS sales. So the actual numbers will be higher for all of the movies I mentioned above. Pretty good for 'substanceless garbage', Wouldn't you say?!

I have a degree in Advertising, so the chances that I understand business better than you do are quite high - call me when you've created entire campaigns from the ground up. But in any case, I assume you're referring to this data:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ime-dvd-movies

Considering how long these films have been around, I'm not too surprised. I'm actually more surprised that they've all been beaten by the Yu-Gi-Oh movie! Anyways, a few things - first, the list seems to apply only to anime *movies*, and not anime DVDs as a whole. Second, and much more important to what we're debating here, is that these are figures for anime sales *now* (okay, two years ago, but still). We're discussing the sales of anime in the 90's, are we not? The anime market is *huge* compared to what it was pre-Pokemon, and even now, the best-selling anime DVDs only sell a small fraction of what non-anime does (around 10-15%). You can imagine that number was much lower before the boom, which is what I was referring to when I mocked the "success" of anime in the mid-90's.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 Isn't DBZ violent subatanceless garbage? I enjoy DBZ as much as the next person, but I think it would easily fit in that category. I have only watched a few episodes of pokemon, but isn't the concept about capturing animals and forcing them to fight? Or is violence against animals ok? At least ninja scroll has some references to Japanese history as well as Japanese legend.

Now you're just being silly. You know there's no comparison between Dragonball or Pokemon and the violent, cursing-every-other-word releases that Manga became famous for in the 90's.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 Most educated people know wikipedia is not a valid source. I would not recommend referencing them as a source for information.

It's a perfectly valid source provided you're not writing a research paper. For random trivia, it's usually quite handy! Are you saying that everything printed on Wikipedia is false? C'mon.

I think you're starting to grasp at straws at this point. Focusing more on being a douche and less on your argument isn't doing you any favors.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Kaze I would have to say that Vampire Hunter D being shown dubbed on TBS late nights along with Robot Carnival also had a huge impact on getting a lot of young adults into anime.

I remember seeing Vampire Hunter D on late at night some time during the late 90s I believe. I thought the show was kinda strange. Rewatching it a few years ago helped me appreciate it more. I think the more recent VHD movie was better overall though.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 Isn't DBZ violent subatanceless garbage? I enjoy DBZ as much as the next person, but I think it would easily fit in that category.

I'm probably gonna make myself look like a fool or a loser by saying this but I disagree. It may be violent but substanceless garbage not so much. For me at least , any show that can draw out emotional feelings for the characters or make me actually kinda care about the characters beyond how cool they are or what they can do shows some substance at least. Two specific cases I can site being Krillian during the Frieza saga and Vegata during the Boo saga.

On a related note though , I felt that YuYu Hakusho did a lot of what was good about DBZ better. It kept the fights at a good length and pace and gave more emotional draw towards the characters , especially when the cast in YYH didn't have the dragonalballs as a fail safe against death.

I can't say how much substanceless garbage Ninja Scroll is or how it compares specifically to DBZ as I've never seen it , but I've heard a lot about it.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 I have only watched a few episodes of pokemon, but isn't the concept about capturing animals and forcing them to fight? Or is violence against animals ok? At least ninja scroll has some references to Japanese history as well as Japanese legend.

That's kinda of shallow way to look at pokemon , however it is correct to an extent. I don't think that's the message fans should take home from the show (and certenly not the message the creators want you to take home from the show I'm sure) but it has been an issue that has dogged the show from the beginning. Personally I've never looked at the show that way since I never felt like that from playing the games and I've always looked at the show as simply an extension of the games.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 Most educated people know wikipedia is not a valid source. I would not recommend referencing them as a source for information.

I have a few friends in college that are heavy wikipedia editors that would take you to task for that comment , but that is not my thoughts or my battle.


On the thought of first anime you've seen or the show that got you into to anime , I know the one I would pick. Not sure it would actually technically be anime or not , either way , Mysterious Cities of Gold. I loved that show so much as a kid and wish it was available on dvd , unfortunatly it seems to be hung up in rights issues.

Quick , based on that above comment , and without looking at my public profile , anyone wanna guess my age?

Originally Posted by Kirin Lemon I have a degree in Advertising, so the chances that I understand business better than you do are quite high - call me when you've created entire campaigns from the ground up. But in any case, I assume you're referring to this data:

You shouldn't have rolled the dice on that one...My B.S. is in Marketing and I have an MBA. I would be interested to know what ad agency you worked for and what campaigns you actually have worked on. I worked for DDB. I also created a grassroots campaign for a major University in Illinois. IF you are a hot chick I'll give you my number. haha

Considering how long these films have been around, I'm not too surprised. I'm actually more surprised that they've all been beaten by the Yu-Gi-Oh movie! Anyways, a few things - first, the list seems to apply only to anime *movies*, and not anime DVDs as a whole. Second, and much more important to what we're debating here, is that these are figures for anime sales *now* (okay, two years ago, but still). We're discussing the sales of anime in the 90's, are we not? The anime market is *huge* compared to what it was pre-Pokemon, and even now, the best-selling anime DVDs only sell a small fraction of what non-anime does (around 10-15%). You can imagine that number was much lower before the boom, which is what I was referring to when I mocked the "success" of anime in the mid-90's.

Show me some data that shows DBZs sales compared to other Anime sales at the time of it's release. If I am grasping at straws, why am I the only one who has provided data? Before you come back with 'you tube views', I would like to say that is not a valid source either.

It's a perfectly valid source provided you're not writing a research paper. For random trivia, it's usually quite handy! Are you saying that everything printed on Wikipedia is false? C'mon.

You certainly like to make broad generalizations. I never stated 'everything printed on Wikipedia is false'. I just am tired of people acting like it is a valid source for facts. Are you sure you are a teacher; Or are you just someone sent over to Japan on the jet program or something? Now I am being a d-bag.

I think everyone is getting sick of reading our discussion. Sorry people!

Originally Posted by StarKnightX Quick , based on that above comment , and without looking at my public profile , anyone wanna guess my age?

Mysterious Cities of Gold fan? Considering my friend used to gush about that almost every chance he got, I would wager at least 27 at the youngest. I missed that myself since I didn't have cable myself until I was about 5 or so, so I missed out on MCoG. Then again I grew up with a 2600 and a Pong box instead so who cared about cable?

And I do have to agree with Lemon, at least when it came to availability. Back over here the best we got locally were the randomly syndicated anime (ie: Dragon Warrior, Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball [original], Ronin Warriors) or whatever would trickle out onto Nickelodeon in their early days (ie: that one with the penguins, Noozles, whatever fairy tale series Saban tossed his name onto [maybe? It's been ages.]). Otherwise nobody knew what the hell anime was. At best it was a passing word in gaming magazines in the import sections (rare) or, if you got the Sci-Fi Channel, you got an eyeful of what anime was.

And since I really got into anime through Sci-Fi [3rd Annual Festival of Anime, specifically] back around '93...yeah, it was pretty much the hyper-violent stuff. Demon City Shinjuku, Lily C.A.T., Casshan: Robot Hunter, 8-Man After and Project A-Ko vs. Battle 1 Gray Side and Battle 2 Blue Side. For my 7th grade self all of it was quality although A-Ko stuck out like a sore thumb on that list, mostly because there wasn't excessive (ie: shocking/fun) violence to be had.

And other than Sci-Fi and their new showings each year coupled with repeats of old material on Saturdays (god, that was glorious), two stores by me carried anime at all. "Carried" is really the operative word, mostly because it involved a scant shelf of titles. They were mostly of the more violent/mindless variety overall but, hey, they had a few episodes of Ranma on the shelf as well if you were lucky. Once DBZ hit, though...man, did those sections expand. One shelf became four, you were more likely to find light comedies, romantic comedies, children's shows, and more "hey, this series is on TV!" releases as well amongst the previous stuff.

After Pokemon...lord, four shelves easily became sixteen, subs were not relegated only to Right Stuf's catalog, series only mentioned by die-hard fans were available for pick-up, the section was populated by more than "skeezy guy in trenchcoat", etc.

...ugh, lost my point, if any. Just nostalgic in a way, I guess. Fun times, fun times.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 You shouldn't have rolled the dice on that one...My B.S. is in Marketing and I have an MBA. I would be interested to know what ad agency you worked for and what campaigns you actually have worked on. I worked for DDB. I also created a grassroots campaign for a major University in Illinois. IF you are a hot chick I'll give you my number. haha

One of my capstone projects was an entry for a national Coca-Cola campaign competition, for which I got third place in the entire nation - quite proud of that! Unfortunately third place doesn't get your campaign set into action. I, too, worked on a grassroots campaign for my university in Wisconsin (UW-EC). I've also done independant work for several restaurants and bars in my hometown. Now, however, I'm teaching in Japan.

Oh, and sorry, I'm a guy, and happily seeing someone!

Originally Posted by slowdive21 Show me some data that shows DBZs sales compared to other Anime sales at the time of it's release. If I am grasping at straws, why am I the only one who has provided data? Before you come back with 'you tube views', I would like to say that is not a valid source either.

Well, as of 2003, DBZ VHS and DVD sales seem to have topped 16 million. The article also makes mention of their success on the Nielsen charts. - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...bm1G1111035918

Here's a Billboard chart for top sales *this week*, and oh look, TWO Dragonball releases! - http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/chart...p+TV+DVD+Sales

I don't even think it's a debatable point that Dragonball outsells most other anime. Heck, I don't even like the franchise, and I'm willing to admit that.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 You certainly like to make broad generalizations. I never stated 'everything printed on Wikipedia is false'. I just am tired of people acting like it is a valid source for facts.

That's quite a broad generalization of your own. It's most certainly a valid source for facts - you just need to make sure that what you're reading is properly cited!

Originally Posted by slowdive21 Are you sure you are a teacher; Or are you just someone sent over to Japan on the jet program or something? Now I am being a d-bag.

I'm most certainly a teacher, employed by the Japanese government. Yes, it's through JET, but that doesn't make me any less a teacher - a damn good one, at that! I work very hard at my job, and truly care about the education of my students. How petty of you to try to undermine my work.

Originally Posted by Kirin Lemon I don't even think it's a debatable point that Dragonball outsells most other anime. Heck, I don't even like the franchise, and I'm willing to admit that.

I am talking about in 1996, the timeframe we are discussing.

I'm most certainly a teacher, employed by the Japanese government. Yes, it's through JET, but that doesn't make me any less a teacher - a damn good one, at that! I work very hard at my job, and truly care about the education of my students. How petty of you to try to undermine my work.

I know I'm awful, sorry GTO.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 I am talking about in 1996, the timeframe we are discussing.

Sorry, can't find sales figures that old. You're trying to divert the actual debate, though. Here's a nudge in the right direction for you since you seem to have lost track - Dragonball and Pokemon have done more for the American anime industry than Akira and Ninja Scroll ever did. Search out your own sales figures pre-Pokemon and post-Pokemon if you want to prove your case, because I don't give a flying fart about this other crap you're trying to bring into the discussion. The burden is on you to prove me wrong, and it sounds like nobody's got your back on this one.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 I know I'm awful, sorry GTO.

GTS, actually.

Originally Posted by slowdive21 You shouldn't have rolled the dice on that one...My B.S. is in Marketing and I have an MBA. I would be interested to know what ad agency you worked for and what campaigns you actually have worked on. I worked for DDB. I also created a grassroots campaign for a major University in Illinois. IF you are a hot chick I'll give you my number. haha

Which U of i? Urban Champaign? & what year(s) were you there?

Originally Posted by jaykrue Which U of i? Urban Champaign? & what year(s) were you there?

Not U of I. I put a major University in Illinois. I didn't want to put too much info out there on myself. I will just say the school I am talking about is known for its school of business. U of I was an option for me, but it was too far downstate (Champaign). I am a HUM fan though! I didn't like the other 'campus' for UofI.

My question for slowdive21 is why were you lifetime banned from Funcoland?

Originally Posted by GuilewasNK My question for slowdive21 is why were you lifetime banned from Funcoland?

I was kinda curious about that too.

I've been more curious though about your username GuilewasNK.