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The true evil, as I see it, is that issues have fallen completely by the wayside. Truly monumental issues are not being debated and are showing what an oligarchy the two party system is and has become.

The issues brought up by the right; John Kerry's Christmas In Cambodia. The left; Iraq. Those are the base issues on what's getting news coverage.

In the meantime critical issues are swept under the rug and never brought up for debate. The incredible tide of illegal immigration, no one is debating it out of fear of alienating the Latino vote. The drug war which is putting millions of Americans in jail and under control of probation officers when released due to ridiculous mandatory sentencing laws yet no one cares because all drug users must be criminals. The disintegration of the black community continues to accelerate with an ever increasing illegitimacy rate, failing public schools in minority communities and school choice is completely removed from debate. There is no discussion on how to reform social security for younger workers to privatize part of their future retirement or ensure the programs solvency as opposed to the current government Ponsi scheme that is SSI.

All of these are key issues facing our country and I'd be hard pressed to tell you either candidates stance on any of these issues. These lead me to believe more than anything that they are issues the major parties in this country don't think they can win votes on and can do more harm than good if they take a stand. Result? Political oligarchy. The status quo is good enough for those in power.

Whose fault is that, PAD? It seems to me every time Kerry starts trying to talk issues, the right-wing slime machine lets forth with another bucket of bile.

And this extends all the way to the top. Compare Bush's web site:

http://www.georgewbush.com/

To Kerry:

http://www.johnkerry.com/index.html

One takes up most of its space calling the other guy a flip-flopper, giving the "raw deal" on him, but basically says nothing about where the candidate stands.

The other candidate seems more interested in steering the argument back to where you'd like it, on the issues, PAD.

Perhaps you should tell the President to leash his attack dogs, so we can get talking about the things that really matter to all of us.

Kerry's website front page mentions Bush once.
Bush's website has freakin' Kerry flash game and several anti-kery sections prominantly located on the front page.



Bush has no class.

You really can't judge the candidates by their websites, Cheapy. I doubt either of them even know how to boot up a computer. They've probably never even seen their own websites.

Originally Posted by bmulligan You really can't judge the candidates by their websites, Cheapy. I doubt either of them even know how to boot up a computer. They've probably never even seen their own websites.

So they aren't responsible for something done in their name, on their behalf and for their benefit, something that is personally endorsed by and paid for through their campaigns?

Do you really believe the things you write here?

Do you think either of them have the time to read and approve everything listed on the website every day? Do you understand how busy a president and a senator can be during the day, afternoon, night? Honestly, you liberals think Bush sits in the oval office with his thumb up his ass whil Dick Cheney runs the country, don't you? You have NO concept of the president's daily schedule, much less a senator on a campaign trail.

Of course they are responsible for the websites content, but you can't judge the entire campaign, the partys' platforms, or the philosophy of either man by what's posted on a webpage, can you?

Originally Posted by bmulligan Do you think either of them have the time to read and approve everything listed on the website every day? Do you understand how busy a president and a senator can be during the day, afternoon, night? Honestly, you liberals think Bush sits in the oval office with his thumb up his ass whil Dick Cheney runs the country, don't you? You have NO concept of the president's daily schedule, much less a senator on a campaign trail.

Don't you think he should take personal responsibility for what's done in his name? Isn't personal responsibility what the Republicans are all about? Or is that only when it's convenient for you?

The hypocrisy is astounding.

what hypocracy? How about some proof there, mister literal......

Maybe what's on the webpage about kerry is TRUE, ever give that a thought? Of course not, because you're a lock step liberal. You believe the Democratic agenda by default and would never question their motives because they are pure. Never question their intent because they are honest, and therefore believe that everything put forth by the Republicans is evil and untrue. Jesus, YOU'RE the walking contradiction.

And because your hair trigger won't allow you to see otherwise here's a suprise for you: I am NOT a Bush supporter.

Originally Posted by bmulligan what hypocracy? How about some proof there, mister literal...... Maybe what's on the webpage about kerry is TRUE, ever give that a thought? Of course not, because you're a lock step liberal. You believe the Democratic agenda by default and would never question their motives because they are pure. Never question their intent because they are honest, and therefore believe that everything put forth by the Republicans is evil and untrue. Jesus, YOU'RE the walking contradiction. And because your hair trigger won't allow you to see otherwise here's a suprise for you: I am NOT a Bush supporter.

The hypocrisy comes from the fact that Republicans expect personal responsibility from others, yet never seem to take personal responsibility themselves. Think of all of the blunders of the Bush administration over the past few years -- the intelligence failures pre-9/11, the mistaken believe of WMDs in Iraq, the failure to put enough troops into Afghanistan -- and yet not one administration offical has been fired. Not one. George Tenet finally resigned, but only after the 9/11 Commission report came out.

You're even excusing the guy's web site, something that could be stopped with one key stroke on a computer.

As far as me being a lock-step liberal, you don't know a single thing about me. I respect the truth, and I respect fair play, and right now I don't see any of that coming from the Republican camp. All I see are smears and vicious attacks and things taken out of context to make a nasty point. And if you try those tactics in this forum, I will be here to answer you each and every time, because I've had it with this garbage.

Originally Posted by dennis_t As far as me being a lock-step liberal, you don't know a single thing about me. I respect the truth, and I respect fair play, and right now I don't see any of that coming from the Republican camp. All I see are smears and vicious attacks and things taken out of context to make a nasty point. And if you try those tactics in this forum, I will be here to answer you each and every time, because I've had it with this garbage.

Originally Posted by dennis_t The hypocrisy comes from the fact that Republicans expect personal responsibility from others, yet never seem to take personal responsibility themselves. Think of all of the blunders of the Bush administration over the past few years -- the intelligence failures pre-9/11, the mistaken believe of WMDs in Iraq, the failure to put enough troops into Afghanistan -- and yet not one administration offical has been fired. Not one. George Tenet finally resigned, but only after the 9/11 Commission report came out.

How is bashing Kerry an example of lack of personal responsibility? How about some 'facts' on that? Fact is that intelligence failures hapened well before 9/11 and well before the Bush administration. This does not absolve Bush from blame, however, one cannot place blame directly and completely upon his shoulders. The 9/11 report confirms this.

You're even excusing the guy's web site, something that could be stopped with one key stroke on a computer.

I'm not excusing anything, I'm just not automatically assuming that the Republicans are lying about everything on Bush's website which is something you have already done and have based your argument upon.

As far as me being a lock-step liberal, you don't know a single thing about me. I respect the truth, and I respect fair play, and right now I don't see any of that coming from the Republican camp. All I see are smears and vicious attacks and things taken out of context to make a nasty point. And if you try those tactics in this forum, I will be here to answer you each and every time, because I've had it with this garbage.

Yet you see fair play coming from the Dems? I think I know all I need to about you. You don't deny being in lock step, do you? You think republicans copywrighted smearing and vicious attacks? Democrats practically invented the genre. If you think Democrats are bastions of fair play then I don't think I even want to know more about you.

Originally Posted by bmulligan I'm not excusing anything, I'm just not automatically assuming that the Republicans are lying about everything on Bush's website which is something you have already done and have based your argument upon.

The discussion wasn't about lying, bmulligan. If you'll recall, PAD's original complaint was that the issues were getting short shrift because of all of the personal attacks. I put the Bush and Kerry web sites side by side, so everyone could judge for themselves who is indulging in personal attacks (I believe that to be Bush) and who is trying to talk about the issues (I believe that to be Kerry).

That said, I don't think I've heard many -- if any -- personal attacks against Kerry that don't fade in the light of day. They are all based on half-truths, quotes taken out of context, lies, and out-and-out smears. And again I ask you, bmulligan -- if you have any proof that any of these attacks against Kerry are true, then show us the facts and let us discuss them.

Originally Posted by bmulligan Yet you see fair play coming from the Dems? I think I know all I need to about you. You don't deny being in lock step, do you? You think republicans copywrighted smearing and vicious attacks? Democrats practically invented the genre. If you think Democrats are bastions of fair play then I don't think I even want to know more about you.

Right now, yes, I do think the Democrats are playing fair when compared with the Repubs. I see Democrats talking about the issues. I see Democrats talking about hard facts, not sleazy gossip and innuendo. I see Kerry denouncing an ad that questions Bush's war record. I don't see any of the slime the Republicans are peddling. And again, if you have an example of an unfounded attack by a Democrat against Bush, or something going on in this campaign that you feel proves the underhandedness of the Democrats, feel free to share it here so we might discuss it.

Originally Posted by dennis_t Don't you think he should take personal responsibility for what's done in his name? Isn't personal responsibility what the Republicans are all about? Or is that only when it's convenient for you? The hypocrisy is astounding.

Yeah, I mean John Kerry really should stand up and say "I really wasn't Vice Chairman of the Intelligence Committee. That was BOB KERREY, I'm JOHN KERRY. Get it right next time staffers!"

John Kerry is an Experienced Leader in the Intelligence Field – John Kerry served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for 8 years and is the former Vice Chairman of the Committee.
John Kerry.com Archived on Google
Bob Kerrey biography.

You forgot about another non-issue that is perhaps the greatest one of all: the runaway spending perpetuated by Congress and Bush. The really sad thing is that whoever wins it will continue since both candidates continue to promise more and more government spending.

ditto....

I wish I had an endless supply of money, and an endless resivoir to draw my next years salary, and all my creditors had faith I would repay them next year....

"Republicans are for smaller government" .... <signs bill for another bureaucracy and cabinet position>

Oh God, don't even get me started on government spending and what this Congress and President have done. It's damn near criminal. No wait, it IS criminal. In an effort to take away election year causes away from Democrats they spent us into oblivion. You'll get no argument from me on that one.

The republicans have controlled congress for the past 10 years pretty much ( they did not have control of the senate for less than 2 years) and yet you blame Democrats for spending?

Is that kind of like when Reagan bitched and bitched about a balanced budget and ran up huge defecits?

Who blamed Democrats? I blamed this Congress, thie REPUBLICAN Congress and the REPUBLICAN President.

Tip O'Niel, Jim Wright and the Democratic leadership proclaimed every Reagan budget proposal DOA. The defecits in the 80's were purely run up by a Democratic Congress. The ones now are partly attributable to an econmic downturn, war but most importantly out of control spending.

Originally Posted by PittsburghAfterDark The true evil, as I see it, is that issues have fallen completely by the wayside. Truly monumental issues are not being debated and are showing what an oligarchy the two party system is and has become. The issues brought up by the right; John Kerry's Christmas In Cambodia. The left; Iraq. Those are the base issues on what's getting news coverage. In the meantime critical issues are swept under the rug and never brought up for debate. The incredible tide of illegal immigration, no one is debating it out of fear of alienating the Latino vote. The drug war which is putting millions of Americans in jail and under control of probation officers when released due to ridiculous mandatory sentencing laws yet no one cares because all drug users must be criminals. The disintegration of the black community continues to accelerate with an ever increasing illegitimacy rate, failing public schools in minority communities and school choice is completely removed from debate. There is no discussion on how to reform social security for younger workers to privatize part of their future retirement or ensure the programs solvency as opposed to the current government Ponsi scheme that is SSI. All of these are key issues facing our country and I'd be hard pressed to tell you either candidates stance on any of these issues. These lead me to believe more than anything that they are issues the major parties in this country don't think they can win votes on and can do more harm than good if they take a stand. Result? Political oligarchy. The status quo is good enough for those in power.

I'm going to have to agree with the people going "Who's fault is it?" and it's Bush's. Kerry, I also don't like, said "we shouldn't be opening fire stations in Iraq and closing them here" and all Bush ever says to that is that the Iraqis are free, and that is good, but still.

Bush rather gay bashing the senter stage, or maybe the moon idea he had that failed, to get things off the big issues, like Iraq, the fact we hardly have anyone in Afghanistan now, or the fact that Bush wants Mexicans to have more rights and benifits than US citicians.

I just love when the Kerry people act shocked and appalled at the negative campaigning of the Republicans. On Paula Zahn's show on CNN last night, they had a town hall debate in Ohio between a senior adviser for the Kerry camp. and one from the Bush camp. When a questioner asked of them, "what's with all the attack ads?" the Kerry adviser asserted "the Kerry campaign hasn't run any negative ads!" The room (of undecided/independent voters) erupted into laughter. Why? Because everyone in the room who had even occasionally turned on their TV in the past few months knew the truth - that pro-Kerry interest groups are spending tens of millions of dollars running attack ads against Bush precisely so that Kerry himself doesn't have to. And there are some nasty ones out there. I don't believe Kerry has condemned them all either. He wouldn't have time to condemn all of them, and nor would he probably want to. Why the double standard for Bush?

As far as Bush's web site having anti-Kerry ads all over it.... I haven't seen the rules that say campaigns have to be perfectly nice and happy go lucky. Be honest- is that really the kind of Presidential campaign you want? Where criticism and bad-mouthing of the other candidate is strictly off-limits? Kerry is standing around whining "aww shucks guys, gosh darnit, why are you all so mean to me?!" If he can't even stand up to a few attack ads in the midst of campaign season, I wouldn't be too confident in his ability to handle the political pressures of the office after he's elected. Does he expect automatic immunity from hard nosed politics just because he's a war hero? There are plenty of contradictions in his thinking, but no logic or consistency whatsoever.