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Wow, didn't take long for the light of day to send the roaches scurrying.

Several of the Swift Boat Vets have long and continuing ties to Bush's campaign -- one was a steering committee member as last as Aug. 19, this Thursday. (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...OWs.&hl=en)

A Bush campaign worker in Florida was caught handing out promotional materials for the Swift Boat Smearers, even though the campaign continues to say it has nothing to do with the group or its ad. (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/8/20/18115/6359)

And it's taking very little work for journalists to find that many of the Swift Boat Vets have praised Kerry effusively in the past. There's this from Knight Ridder:

Kerry's commanding officer in Vietnam, George Elliott, said in an attack ad: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam." But during the Vietnam War, Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver and Bronze Star medals for valor in combat and gave him the highest possible praise in his officer efficiency reports. "In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTjg Kerry was unsurpassed," Elliott wrote in 1969. He went on to rate Kerry as "calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire." Elliott added: "(Kerry) emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group." In 16 categories on Kerry's officer efficiency report, ranging from professional knowledge to moral courage to military bearing to reliability, Elliott gave Kerry the highest possible rating - "is not exceeded" - in 11 categories, and the second highest, "one of the top 10" in five other categories. Elliott in 1996 supported Kerry in his re-election campaign for the Senate and during an appearance in Boston declared that Kerry had earned the Silver Star "for an act of courage."

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9455159.

And this from the New York Times:

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year. In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man." In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that." George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats." "Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers." Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/po...&position=

Again, I ask -- is there any level to which Republicans will not stoop in their drive for power? Have they no sense of shame or decency? Or do they figure the country is just one big open sewer, so what's a little more slime going to hurt? If their ideas are so good, why do they have to smear and lie to get votes?

If you think only the Republicans are involved in dirty politics, you're naive.
If you're absolutely certain that the Democrat's aren't, you're stupid.

Originally Posted by JSweeney If you think only the Republicans are involved in dirty politics, you're naive. If you're absolutely certain that the Democrat's aren't, you're stupid.

I just gave you a proven example of Republican dirty tricks.

Now give me a similar example from the Democrats.

"Everyone does it" is not much an argument, and it's even less of one if you don't bother proving it.

Hate to tread on your hero-worship:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...1/ai_113363774

Originally Posted by bmulligan Hate to tread on your hero-worship: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...1/ai_113363774

Wow, your an idiot.

Originally Posted by bmulligan Hate to tread on your hero-worship: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...1/ai_113363774

Since you're putting out that link how about you check out this one too: www.democracynow.org/ . Also how about you LISTEN to the show?

Thats a good show, they had the whole 'winter soldier' speech before congress (not the testimony).

It is public television at its best.

It's intelligent media not like that CRAP on NPR for Political. No offense but to Conservatives but NPR isn't what I'd remotely consider Left leaning and they don't really open peoples eyes to much although I DID appreciate a story done on a guy who wrote a book about America's prisons. They discussed some of the argument of "Rehabilitation vs. Reincarnceration", something we don't hear discussed often enough. Quite often the...
Shit never mind I'm digressing here. Anyway check out the book if you're interested in reading up on some of the problems. "A History Of Injustice: The Crisis In America's Prisons".

Originally Posted by dennis_t Again, I ask -- is there any level to which Republicans will not stoop in their drive for power? Have they no sense of shame or decency? Or do they figure the country is just one big open sewer, so what's a little more slime going to hurt? If their ideas are so good, why do they have to smear and lie to get votes?

Again, I ask -- is there any level to which Democrats will not stoop in their drive for power?

Making up stories about Vietnam, potentially self-inflicted wounds. Hell, this guy has personallly commited war crimes by his own words. Bush might be bad but he hasn't violated the Geneva Conventions yet.

Ah, so you've bought the GOP's new meme, eh?

1.) "Self inflicted" wounds are still wounds in the course of duty, and still eligible for the Purple heart.

2.) The wounds in question were caused by a grenade. A grenade of the type that Kerry's crewmates insist were not present on his boat.

In terms of the war crimes he committed, if you are a soldier, you do as you're ordered. that's one of the reasons I don't find say, Lynndie England necessarily responsible for Abu Ghraib - if someone tells you to do something, in the military, it is your job to do it, however repusive. What are you other options? Insubordination? Fragging your commander? The point was that Kerry was protesting the policy, and the command - not the individual soldliers, or their actions.

Bush, incidentally, has violated the Geneva Conventions, from the command side - something Kerry *hasn't* done. The Guantanamo Bay prisoners, for instance, and the "ghost" prisoners in Iraq, who were never reported to the Red Cross, are in fact explicit violations of the Geneva Conventions.

So, now, gamefreak - tell me - you think it' the Democrats who are stooping? the Swift Boat Veterans are liars - GOP-funded liars, coordinating with the Bush-Cheney campaign. Both those labels are *proven*, 100%, and documented. Something the Swift Boat Vets' claims are explicitly *not*.

Try again, gamefreak. Try harder.

seppo

Originally Posted by helava Ah, so you've bought the GOP's new meme, eh? 1.) "Self inflicted" wounds are still wounds in the course of duty, and still eligible for the Purple heart. 2.) The wounds in question were caused by a grenade. A grenade of the type that Kerry's crewmates insist were not present on his boat. In terms of the war crimes he committed, if you are a soldier, you do as you're ordered. that's one of the reasons I don't find say, Lynndie England necessarily responsible for Abu Ghraib - if someone tells you to do something, in the military, it is your job to do it, however repusive. What are you other options? Insubordination? Fragging your commander? The point was that Kerry was protesting the policy, and the command - not the individual soldliers, or their actions. Bush, incidentally, has violated the Geneva Conventions, from the command side - something Kerry *hasn't* done. The Guantanamo Bay prisoners, for instance, and the "ghost" prisoners in Iraq, who were never reported to the Red Cross, are in fact explicit violations of the Geneva Conventions. So, now, gamefreak - tell me - you think it' the Democrats who are stooping? the Swift Boat Veterans are liars - GOP-funded liars, coordinating with the Bush-Cheney campaign. Both those labels are *proven*, 100%, and documented. Something the Swift Boat Vets' claims are explicitly *not*. Try again, gamefreak. Try harder. seppo

I didn't say that self inflicted wound were "out of the question" or what have you. Purposfully hurtting yourself to get out of the war is a downright irresponsible and dirty thing to do. I am extreamly hesitant to take Kerry's word, one that he has changed many times, over a group of soldiers.

So Kerry knew what he was doing was wrong but didn't stand up for the "American Way" and whatnot? You'd have someone as president who'd rather shrink his duties and do what others say instead of what is right?

Look, there is a HUGE difference between self-inflicted wounds and freindly fire.

AND ONLY ONE OF THE SWIFT VETS ACTUALLY KNEW KERRY! THEY WERE TOTAL STRANGERS WHO SAID THEY FOUGHT BESIDE HIM! THEY ARE LIARS!

more than likely Bush doesnt have anything to do with them, and the fact that his promotional person was handing out fliers supporting them, doesnt mean that he has anything to do with what their saying. If i was running for office, and there were some people out saying something that made me look better, i'd probably give out fliers telling about them too.

See? Its an issue of morals which you don't know anything about.

Originally Posted by gamefreak I didn't say that self inflicted wound were "out of the question" or what have you. Purposfully hurtting yourself to get out of the war is a downright irresponsible and dirty thing to do. I am extreamly hesitant to take Kerry's word, one that he has changed many times, over a group of soldiers. So Kerry knew what he was doing was wrong but didn't stand up for the "American Way" and whatnot? You'd have someone as president who'd rather shrink his duties and do what others say instead of what is right?

Dear god, a brain can come in quite handy.....

I cant belive that you have the nerve to say that kerry was trying to get out of the war by hurting himself when HE volunteered for it, while Gerogie boy, for all intensive purposes, DODGED THE WAR, "Dont throw stones when u live in a glass house" -out

Originally Posted by spyhunterk19 Dear god, a brain can come in quite handy..... I cant belive that you have the nerve to say that kerry was trying to get out of the war by hurting himself when HE volunteered for it, while Gerogie boy, for all intensive purposes, DODGED THE WAR, "Dont throw stones when u live in a glass house" -out

And? He didn't lie about it. He didn't commit war crimes. He didn't rape, cut of heads, shoot at random civilizans, and so forth.

I have a question for you. Would you rather Saddam be in power right this instant? Let me remind you, he has gassed, raped, murdered, and overall made Iraq a not nice place for his people. I can also guarentee you the fact that he would not have stepped down had France et al demanded it. Can you honestly condone the things he has done? How could you wish such horrible things on the Iraqi people and the world overall?

I'm so sick of this "Oh me, oh my!" crap about Sadaam doing all these wretched things. Where the FUCK are the Republicans OR Democrats for that matter when China is committing Human Right's abuses. Did George Bush pull MFTN status from them when this track continued? China never does ANYTHING about it and all they do is get critisized a bit and nothing happens so before you or Democrats but especially Republicans or anyone pulls the "Look at what Sadaam did." I say look at people tolerating China's behavior. Granted it's not as bad but it's still a valid critisizm to people decrying what Sadaam did or a far better example would be for Republicans to have critisized Reagan for ruining...Panama or whichever country it was down in South America. God I'm out of it. Be consistent I guess I should say.

Originally Posted by gamefreak And? He didn't lie about it. He didn't commit war crimes. He didn't rape, cut of heads, shoot at random civilizans, and so forth. I have a question for you. Would you rather Saddam be in power right this instant? Let me remind you, he has gassed, raped, murdered, and overall made Iraq a not nice place for his people. I can also guarentee you the fact that he would not have stepped down had France et al demanded it. Can you honestly condone the things he has done? How could you wish such horrible things on the Iraqi people and the world overall?

You cant be serios right, lmao, where the hell does saddam come in? we were talking about the candidates vietnam record(or lack there of in gop case) every time a gop feels thretend they bring up non related subjects, go home.

Originally Posted by gamefreak And? He didn't lie about it. He didn't commit war crimes. He didn't rape, cut of heads, shoot at random civilizans, and so forth. I have a question for you. Would you rather Saddam be in power right this instant? Let me remind you, he has gassed, raped, murdered, and overall made Iraq a not nice place for his people. I can also guarentee you the fact that he would not have stepped down had France et al demanded it. Can you honestly condone the things he has done? How could you wish such horrible things on the Iraqi people and the world overall?

Don't make yourself look like an idiot by implying Kerry cut off heads, rape, etc. He was quoting some of the winter soldier's statements. If you even bothered to read couple of words before it....

Gamefreak, get out of this forum, u dont know what ur talking about, u just keep making up G.O.P bullshit that ur mis-repeating from P.A.D, at least PAD makes points (even if they are flawed) ur just a repeating monkey, please go home.