National ID Cards. Thoughts?

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RAMSTORIA

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National identification cards, long feared by privacy advocates, may soon become mandatory for American workers. In a bipartisan effort to curb the hiring of illegal immigrants, Sens. Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC) have proposed legislation that, if passed, will require all working Americans to carry biometric ID cards containing fingerprint records and other personal information. Sen. Schumer calls the measure "the nub of solving the immigration dilemma." But Chris Calabrese, an American Civil Liberties Union lawyer, warns the cards would be a "massive invasion" of privacy. Are national ID cards the solution to our immigration woes — or an unacceptable intrusion into our lives? (Watch Ron Paul chime in on the national ID card debate)

This is an affront to our freedom as Americans: Not only would this "ghastly" plan be a frightening invasion of privacy, says Alex Nowarsteh in Fox News, it "would treat every American like a criminal by requiring them to enter their most intimate and personal data into a government database." This is a "naked government power grab," and it must be stopped.

"5 reasons why America should steer clear of a national ID card"

The privacy concerns make no sense: If we're ever going to improve our national security, the "infuriatingly nonsensical" hand-wringing over privacy needs to end, says Donn Tennant in IT Business Edge. Many non-criminals, including members of the armed forces and "most public servants," are already fingerprinted, and their liberty remains intact. And having to show "a national ID with your biometric information" at the airport is no more "loathsome" than showing a driver's license.
"National ID cards: Pointless privacy argument is getting old"

Issuing every American an ID card would be wasteful: Instituting the national ID cards now, says Megan Carpentier in Washington Examiner, would add "hundreds of millions of dollars" to the federal debt, and impose painful costs on employers. All that just to keep "less than 4 percent of the total population of the United States from accessing the job market. Apparently, cost-benefit analyses aren’t the rage on Capitol Hill these days."
"The government would like to see your papers, please"

It won't pass, anyway: Privacy advocates aren't the only ones who don't want this bill to pass, says Jack Cafferty in CNN. The aim of worker ID cards is to make it harder for employers to hire illegal immigrants. "If you think the corporations that make huge profits on the backs of an illegal alien workforce are going to let something like that get through, think again."
"Are worker ID cards a good idea?"
Click to expand...


http://www.theweek.com/article/index/200644/A_national_ID_card_in_2010


Just wondering what everyone thinks. I'm on the fence personally. First off, I think the premise that this will curb employers from hiring illegals is ludicrous. They will just continue to ignore employment laws.

As far as privacy concerns. Groups like the ACLU get worked up because it's an invasion of privacy. Oh no! the gubmit will have my finger prints, address, maybe even my social security number. C'mon, I'm not so naive to think the federal government can't get all of that information if they wanted it. how many of us were finger printed as children? Last I checked those were taken by my local PD and are no doubt on record somewhere.

Now with that in mind I'm split between "who cares they already have that info" and "why the hell would we spend all the money on it when its fairly redundant" ... probably lean towards the latter though.

Thoughts?
 
I see nothing wrong with it. Either do national ID cards or require everyone have a state ID--driver's license or a non-driver ID.

Everyone should be required to have some form of photo ID for work, voting etc.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I see nothing wrong with it. Either do national ID cards or require everyone have a state ID--driver's license or a non-driver ID.

Everyone should be required to have some form of photo ID for work, voting etc.[/QUOTE]

You pretty much already do need an ID to live in the US. Everything we do requires an ID, purchasing items, flying on an airplane, getting into bars, etc. Why go through this whole hassle (and expense) of mandating it?

As RAMSTORIA already pointed out, if an employers is dead-set on skirting immigration laws, they're just gonna do it, national ID card or not.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I see nothing wrong with it. Either do national ID cards or require everyone have a state ID--driver's license or a non-driver ID.

Everyone should be required to have some form of photo ID for work, voting etc.[/QUOTE]

ID cards won't stop people from creating fakes.

ID cards won't be used for people paying cash for labor or services.

My fingerprints aren't needed to determine if I'm driving erratically or speeding or driving a stolen car.

ID cards are just going to be another money grab or way to control lawabiding people.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']You pretty much already do need an ID to live in the US. Everything we do requires an ID, purchasing items, flying on an airplane, getting into bars, etc. Why go through this whole hassle (and expense) of mandating it?
[/QUOTE]

Because there are still a lot of people who don't have any photo ID. Mandate it and you can require them at the polling stations during elections etc.

And would it really be an expense? Would it not be something they charge for like they do driver's license/state IDs, Passports etc.? I guess if it's mandated there would have to make them freely available for people below the poverty line etc., but given that driver's license are $20 or so most states (and can't cost near that much to process and print) I'd think the majority paying for the ID would more than cover the freebies.
 
I'm for it, but that would mean centralizing alot of the agency's...

Passports
Driver's license
State ID
DNR and Gun licensing, Hunting/fishing
SSN
Medicare

Eventually maybe even Healthcare/Insurance... :roll:

But that would require too much work on every single dept to collect and catalog all that data.

No one is going to be bothered with it. So I vote no, because it's just going to waste money.

WI tried to overhall the Dept of Transportation and setup centralized computing and enter the 21st century... that failed and the state wasted 15 or 50 million, can't remember.
 
In many states you can get a drivers license without being here legally.

I'm not for an ID card, I don't like the idea of the government having yet one more way to track me, who I am, and what I do. Such power will inevitably lead to some bad practices.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']In many states you can get a drivers license without being here legally.

I'm not for an ID card, I don't like the idea of the government having yet one more way to track me, who I am, and what I do. Such power will inevitably lead to some bad practices.[/QUOTE]

The gubmit has NEVAR abused its power.
 
tl; dr: I'd vote no on a national ID

full version:
I'm not morally opposed to a national ID. In a lot of ways, it seems to make sense. Instead of needing a social security card and a passport, I could just carry one form of ID. Working inside "The Government" the amount of ineptitude around here makes me believe that such grand conspiracies that some cook up could never happen. Offices are leakier than a colander so any such plans would be short-lived at best. And as for privacy, the thought that Americans care about privacy is a fucking joke. Just spend a little time on FaceBook and you'll learn more about Americans than you've ever cared to know. We give up our privacy all the time.


However, it's these "other uses" that bother me. Making it *the* ID for voting would essentially be a poll tax. That means that we'd have to find a way to make it virtually free (extra expense).

And what problem does it really solve? Fakes will always be available, people will always be paid under the table, and it's just another bureau that you have to fight with if you're a woman, get married and change her name. An ID card isnt gonna stop any of the behavior that its supporters are so "concerned" about. Thus it's just a big waste of fucking time and money.
 
I'm not sure what the point would be, unless it's to burn more taxpayers money on another government department.

Mind you having said that, what do people who don't drive use for Id ?
 
[quote name='benjamouth']I'm not sure what the point would be, unless it's to burn more taxpayers money on another government department.

Mind you having said that, what do people who don't drive use for Id ?[/QUOTE]

That question serious?

Buying liquor and ID at Airports along with passports. Generally any place that requires a photo ID. Changing name on SS card requires an ID. Proof of age... Stores with M rated games and rental spots...

Banks may request it on loans and such.

Credit card applications might have ID number that's recorded.

WM and Kmart, maybe Sears and Target won't take checks without ID recorded... be it State or Drivers.

Business establishments require for background checks, verify with Employee Services, general security.

At least in our state, State ID looks REALLY close to a Driver's license but doesn't state Driver status or class to drive. Serves double duty.


Really, you can be anyone, or no one without one. There isn't any proof to claim who you really are if you don't have one.
 
They are already combining identificaiton, the EDL (Enhanced Drivers License) is rapidly being accept by multiple DMV agencies and it combines your passport and drivers license into one. It costs more then a regular drivers license but allows you to enter Canada without any extra ID.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm not for an ID card, I don't like the idea of the government having yet one more way to track me, who I am, and what I do. Such power will inevitably lead to some bad practices.[/QUOTE]
How would this change their ability to track you in a negative way? What bad practices would arise that they currently are unable to do?

I'm on the fence. I can't really think of a reason why it's bad, but it just doesn't feel right to me. The "good" stuff just doesn't seem worth the cost of the program.
 
[quote name='GenPirate']They are already combining identificaiton, the EDL (Enhanced Drivers License) is rapidly being accept by multiple DMV agencies and it combines your passport and drivers license into one. It costs more then a regular drivers license but allows you to enter Canada without any extra ID.[/QUOTE]

You mean I can't enter Canada with my regular driver's license? Sweet.
 
[quote name='benjamouth']I'm not sure what the point would be, unless it's to burn more taxpayers money on another government department.[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha.

As someone who is often concerned with inequality issues, I'm okay with a national ID if every assurance is made to ensure it is readily available to *all* legal citizens, including the homeless (no place of residence), those too poor to afford ID fees, shutins, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting at the moment.

Of course, the greater the allowances you make, the weaker the entire proposal becomes because each move in that direction makes it easier to fabricate.

EDL, huh? I may look into that, since I just read passport fees have gone up around $35.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Hahahaha.

As someone who is often concerned with inequality issues, I'm okay with a national ID if every assurance is made to ensure it is readily available to *all* legal citizens, including the homeless (no place of residence), those too poor to afford ID fees, shutins, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting at the moment.

Of course, the greater the allowances you make, the weaker the entire proposal becomes because each move in that direction makes it easier to fabricate.

EDL, huh? I may look into that, since I just read passport fees have gone up around $35.[/QUOTE]

seems to be my biggest beef with it i suppose. the privacy really doesnt concern me. but if this card is going to be for everyone its going to have to be free for a lot of people, if not all. so were talking billions of dollars in cost for the card and millions lost in revenue (ie passport fees).
 
The cost of implementation and execution should be a concern, as the technology they propose would easily overshadow the collective current state expenditures on identification cards.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']You mean I can't enter Canada with my regular driver's license? Sweet.[/QUOTE]

I can't tell if you were being sarcastic, but no you cannot as of June 2009.

[quote name='mykevermin']EDL, huh? I may look into that, since I just read passport fees have gone up around $35.[/QUOTE]

Not every state has adopted the program yet, New York has though. Also since it's in the beginning stages not every country will accept it if you fly there. Before you go to the DMV and try to buy one check to see if your state has it and if the place you're going to accepts it.
 
Last I checked the EDL only works going to Canada, Mexico and certain Caribbean countries. And it doesn't work if you fly there.

For all the time and money you might as well just get a passport.

Only way I see it being useful is if you close to either border and go back and forth a lot.

A national ID isn't the worst idea I ever heard, to make I worth the while we should integrate with a health care card like Taiwan or France has.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Last I checked the EDL only works going to Canada, Mexico and certain Caribbean countries. And it doesn't work if you fly there.[/QUOTE]

How does it work for any Caribbean country then?
 
[quote name='Msut77']

A national ID isn't the worst idea I ever heard, to make I worth the while we should integrate with a health care card like Taiwan or France has.[/QUOTE]

thatd only work with universal health care from the government, and that wont happen. i dont mind a national id card if it had my DL, passport, SS, etc. but when you start adding things like my insurance, banking, i get a little more leery.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']H
EDL, huh? I may look into that, since I just read passport fees have gone up around $35.[/QUOTE]

Just got my first one recently... was $100--$25 fee to the post office, $75 for the passport. $25 more if you want a pass port card for Canada/Mexico/Caribbean--I didn't bother with that.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']thatd only work with universal health care from the government, and that wont happen.[/quote]

I see no particular reason why it wouldn't work even if any attempt at healthcare reform failed.

It would have your medical history, allergies etc. and that would be useful even if there was no insurance or billing info on it.

i dont mind a national id card if it had my DL, passport, SS, etc. but when you start adding things like my insurance, banking, i get a little more leery.
Click to expand...

You would get over it eventually.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I see no particular reason why it wouldn't work even if any attempt at healthcare reform failed.

It would have your medical history, allergies etc. and that would be useful even if there was no insurance or billing info on it.

You would get over it eventually.[/QUOTE]

Everybody means by "having your information on it" that the card has a code that can be used at a very expensive and heavily monitored piece of equipment to access a file with all of that information on it, right?

You don't actually want all of your personal information on a card that can easily be stolen from you, right?

I don't want somebody with a laser to know what my fingerprints are.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']of course. don't want to shun your bloated white tourist dollars.[/QUOTE]

I can't tell if this comment is a case of wealth envy or racism. Or both.

Anywhoo, I agree with a lot of the posts on here - I'm not necessarily *against* the idea, per say. I just don't see the use in it.
 
I can sum up this thread. It's not a big deal if Prez Obama (D) does it. But if Prez _____ (R) does it, it's unconstitutional and the government taking our freedom.

Vice-versa for RedvBlue et al.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Last I checked the EDL only works going to Canada, Mexico and certain Caribbean countries. And it doesn't work if you fly there.

For all the time and money you might as well just get a passport.

Only way I see it being useful is if you close to either border and go back and forth a lot.

A national ID isn't the worst idea I ever heard, to make I worth the while we should integrate with a health care card like Taiwan or France has.[/QUOTE]

France's drivers license is integrated with a health care care? Learn something new everyday.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I can't tell if this comment is a case of wealth envy or racism. Or both.[/QUOTE]

:lol:

You think I'm envious of people who pay to go on "cruise ships."
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:lol:

You think I'm envious of people who pay to go on "cruise ships."[/QUOTE]

Same, I would rather own my own boat the size of a cruise ship. Cruise ships are for tools who wish they were rich but they aren't so they have to share a boat with a couple thousand other strangers.
 
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