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How do you get facts and examples from a myth?

Originally Posted by depascal22 How do you get facts and examples from a myth?

Originally Posted by Msut77 Mythical?

First it was an expression. There were no examples or facts from you. Do I need to go back and edit that word, is it really going to hold up a response from you Msut? Perfect, is that a better choice, or great, exceptional, balanced, fair....?


It seems you chose the word "working" for your response. I have edited my post as to get some real response from you.

The current system "works", maybe not for everyone, but its "working". I think your choice of word allows you to just duck around on the internet. I could care less if you or I win any piss contest on the internet. Hell it seems for the past decade the government has been "working" on a solution....

You come on and start your response by calling me dim. I have not insulted you, nor do I really need to. I guess this is not the place to have a discussion on the subject. But I am still willing to listen to anyone I can on it. It effects me personally on many levels, as it does a lot of people.

I am by no means an expert in this field. I have worked for 10 years in Health insurance, previous to that I worked for 4 years in a nursing home. I read about the subject with more regularity than I ever had before. I have many, many personal experiences between myself, family, friends, insureds, etc.




to depascal22,

I answered your question in my post on page 4, post # 79. I just revised it so you may have missed it once Msut answered and the thread went to page 5.

Originally Posted by Snake2715 First it was an expression.

An expression of ignorance? Stupidity?

There were no examples or facts.

Of non-mythical working healthcare systems in other countries? Really?

You want me to hold your hand or tie your shoes for you as well?

Perfect, is that a better choice, or great, exceptional, balanced, fair....

No one has argued that other systems are "perfect", better yes but if you want to argue a strawman go somewhere else.

The current system "works", maybe not for everyone, but its "working"

There is no way in hell I am going to spot you millions of Americans in order for you to pretend you have an argument.

You come on and start your response by calling me dim.

You are taking the George W. Bush position on ER as healthcare.

Msut77,

Yup, I am both ingorant and stupid. Thank you.

We will disagree then, thanks for your reasoning to that. Sorry if I missed it in another thread, or another news article you read some time during your life.

Since there seems to be an answer out there, I am surprised you have not been more proactive in getting this news to the government. I suspect there is this working system that we should copy exactly, no?

Better... thats your choice of word now? See how this thread gets jacked up with pissing contests. I rarely post in the politics threads for this very reason.

Let me ask one question.
Your argument for better had better be pretty damn good, because all sides of this "reform" have people just like you giving example, after example, as to why they are right. To say something is better with no possible downsides seems a little silly to me.

Can our system get better, sure. Will a government run health system be better, thats open to discussion. I thought this thread was for that exact reason. I was wrong.

Maybe you should go back and prove how dim I am as I probably misspelled quite a bit. I know I used punctuation incorrectly. If my single Mother would have had more money to put me into a good college this would probably not be a problem... but then she was working and trying to pay medical insurance so we had a choice of being dead/sick or going to a good college. I see now how your side of the argument will positively effect everyone involved for the best. I will concede. Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Snake2715 Msut77, Yup, I am both ingorant and stupid. Thank you. We will disagree then, thanks for your reasoning to that. Sorry if I missed it in another thread, or another news article you read some time during your life. Since there seems to be an answer out there, I am surprised you have not been more proactive in getting this news to the government. I suspect there is this working system that we should copy exactly, no? Better... thats your choice of word now? See how this thread gets jacked up with pissing contests. I rarely post in the politics threads for this very reason. Let me ask one question. Your argument for better had better be pretty damn good, because all sides of this "reform" have people just like you giving example, after example, as to why they are right. To say something is better with no possible downsides seems a little silly to me. Can our system get better, sure. Will a government run health system be better, thats open to discussion. I thought this thread was for that exact reason. I was wrong. Maybe you should go back and prove how dim I am as I probably misspelled quite a bit. I know I used punctuation incorrectly. If my single Mother would have had more money to put me into a good college this would probably not be a problem... but then she was working and trying to pay medical insurance so we had a choice of being dead/sick or going to a good college. I see now how your side of the argument will positively effect everyone involved for the best. I will concede. Thanks for sharing.

Haha, it does get pretty lively in here, that's just the way it is. But anyway, I'll concede to you that the system is working, but if you want to use that argument, it technically works in Canada too, just not perfectly like the U.S. system. All I'm saying is that we should look at it, because it definitely could work better. How about free basic/preventative healthcare, and maybe an option to purchase better healthcare for more serious problems? I know there's a lot of problems with inequality there, but I'm just throwing it out there to see what people think.

Originally Posted by docvinh Haha, it does get pretty lively in here, that's just the way it is. But anyway, I'll concede to you that the system is working, but if you want to use that argument, it technically works in Canada too,

Thats the issue, none of them I have read about, or discussed seem to really work throughout. Someone is getting shorted.


If I were to say we need one change no matter what (and for the record we need more than that). I think we need to get away from individual state mandates. Lets make it a clean Federal mandate on healthcare to start. That I think is going to be the hardest thing for the government to tackle, is looking at each state and how they are going to effect its rules and regulations.

For instance in regards to group coverage, Florida recently mandated that healthcare can only be increased by 15% for "underwritten carriers". They saw this as a solution for stopping the evil healthcare carriers from raising rates to those with bad experience, or types of business (SIC), age/demographics, etc.

Now that that has been in place a few things happened. Some carriers flat out left, leaving less competition. The other carriers that stayed came back with revised plans (and a higher price for these new plans), grandfathered their old planholders in, but are cutting coverages.

The most recent thing that has happened is the carriers that are now re entering the state are raising their base rates to compensate for the 15% maximum rate up. So those people that had good health are now not able to afford the coverage becuase the base rates are so high... now what is happening is those people with good health are choosing to not take coverage, leaving adverse selection, once again, for the health insurance carriers... Domino effect for the group health insurance in that state as its went through the roof.

from the responses here i'm convinced <5% even know what it is the democrats are proposing.. it's not socialized, it's not nationalized, it's nothing like canada's.. seeing a whole lot of arguments here about "oh the government does things inefficiently so nationalized care would suck", which isn't applicable at all...

obama/dems want:
- forced healthcare, everyone has coverage, people without insurance are fined, like car insurance.

- subsidies for low-income families (up to some crazy-high income bracket, over 100k i think) to get insurance

- a self-sufficient federal insurance program as an option, to compete with private insurers

it's mostly geared toward lowering how much we spend on healthcare as a nation, and partially to getting basic care to the poor. it's amazing how many people will make up their mind about something and begin moaning without even knowing what's going on.

Originally Posted by Snake2715 I suspect there is this working system that we should copy exactly, no?

I am not very good at handling the level of butthurt you have displayed but anyhoo...

There is no particular system we have to copy "exactly", as koggit pointed out there are different ways of going about it they aren't all socialized at least to any worthwhile meaning of the word.

Technically even if we do copy another system there is no reason we would have to make the same if any mistake they happen to be making or made.

Let me ask one question.

Ok.

Your argument for better had better be pretty damn good, because all sides of this "reform" have people just like you giving example, after example, as to why they are right. To say something is better with no possible downsides seems a little silly to me.

That is not a question.

By "better" I am referring to the fact that many other countries manage to spend a whole lot less on healthcare than we do while covering everyone. Most of these countries provide better quality care on the whole than in America.

Also this isn't so much about the poor as some try to pretend it is, there are many solidly middle class people who are getting the short end.

When I say better I mean better any way a sane person would define it unlike the way you seem to be defining "working".

Originally Posted by Snake2715 None, why when you can get it free from the government? Thus reducing the spread of risk the private carriers have, and increasing their prices more. You all sit here like these companies are ripping everyone off. There are RX for RA, and Crohns out there athat are $10,000 a pop and they are prescribed quarterly. So $40,000 in 4 treatments. No realistically the person getting those treatments has many other medical expenses, but you can bet your ass they are not paying $40,000 a year on medical insurance are they. But somehow the insurance carrier that has to meet certain surplus funds, and liquid assets to liability ratios is the evil overcharging HMO. Its a spread of risk, some people pay in and get nothing or verylittle back, others get much more then they pay in.... its the entire concept of insurance.

Well what do you suggest for someone like myself who can't get insured because of a pre existing condition then? I'm uninsurable because they won't make any money off of me. My health has been broken down to a matter of profit for a company.

Now before you paint me as some sort of anti corporate liberal, i was technically a business major in school, i've had business clases, i understand the company's responsibliities. However, that matters little to me when i'm sick and can't afford to see a doctor. You want your private insurance, then be my guest, but i'll take whatever the i can get at this point.

edit- Wanted to add that my own general physician hates insurance companies himself, completely hates dealing with them. They dictate how he cares for his patients and he despises that. I'd imagine he'd love any system which allowed him to prescribe what he felt was the best medicine for the situation.

Originally Posted by MSI Magus I seriously wish there were more Canadians weighing in here.

Kinda busy here. You know, repairing the nation's forests. Healing the Earth. Destroying my body so that you guys can wipe your asses.

Ungrateful pricks.

Originally Posted by MSI Magus Pretty much any people I ever talk to from "socialist" nations like Canada love their health care and say that its only stupid American right wingers portraying them as waiting months for care or all these other misconceptions. Most recent was a chick me and my fiancee were talking to online and thinking of meeting up with in person. After a month or so of talking to her off and on I asked about healthcare and she said that even with having not 1 but 2 freaking autistic children she had never had a problem and thanks God she isnt in the US where she would be saddled with debt and little to no help for her two sons.

Well, lesse. I come from a pretty poor-ish family. My older brother and I both had a decent pile of medical problems when we were younger, and were it not for Damned Socialism!, we would have been ed eight ways from Sunday.

But hey, anecdotal shit is anecdotal. Still better'n nothing, and I'm a little pressed for time, yeah?

I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

I think crotch is kind of a reverse lumberjack.

Originally Posted by MSI Magus I seriously wish there were more Canadians weighing in here. Pretty much any people I ever talk to from "socialist" nations like Canada love their health care and say that its only stupid American right wingers portraying them as waiting months for care or all these other misconceptions. Most recent was a chick me and my fiancee were talking to online and thinking of meeting up with in person. After a month or so of talking to her off and on I asked about healthcare and she said that even with having not 1 but 2 freaking autistic children she had never had a problem and thanks God she isnt in the US where she would be saddled with debt and little to no help for her two sons.

Swingers?

SYstem now...


I sit in office for 30 mins waiting to be called

Nurse calls me to back room

I sit in back room waiting for doctor for 15mins

Doctor walks in

Doc : whats wrong
Me: My back hurts
DOC: here let me write something up for that

Total time 2 mins

Doc leaves and nurse hands me a bill for 150 bucks


GOT TO LOVE THE MEDICAL SYSTEM LOL

obama/dems want: - forced healthcare, everyone has coverage, people without insurance are fined, like car insurance.

Icky.

Originally Posted by JolietJake Well what do you suggest for someone like myself who can't get insured because of a pre existing condition then? I'm uninsurable because they won't make any money off of me. My health has been broken down to a matter of profit for a company. Now before you paint me as some sort of anti corporate liberal, i was technically a business major in school, i've had business clases, i understand the company's responsibliities. However, that matters little to me when i'm sick and can't afford to see a doctor. You want your private insurance, then be my guest, but i'll take whatever the i can get at this point. edit- Wanted to add that my own general physician hates insurance companies himself, completely hates dealing with them. They dictate how he cares for his patients and he despises that. I'd imagine he'd love any system which allowed him to prescribe what he felt was the best medicine for the situation.

If you have said it already excuse me what state are you in? Every carrier says you get no coverage from prex conditions correct?

Let me see what I can find out.

Originally Posted by slidecage SYstem now... I sit in office for 30 mins waiting to be called Nurse calls me to back room I sit in back room waiting for doctor for 15mins Doctor walks in Doc : whats wrong Me: My back hurts DOC: here let me write something up for that Total time 2 mins Doc leaves and nurse hands me a bill for 150 bucks GOT TO LOVE THE MEDICAL SYSTEM LOL

Your forgetting the guy the doc was meeting with before he came to see you... you know the one that left all the fancy noteb=pads, and pens. The one that his pushing his new found medicine, so the doc can get his bonuses, and the RX companies can stay rich.

Originally Posted by Snake2715 If you have said it already excuse me what state are you in? Every carrier says you get no coverage from prex conditions correct? Let me see what I can find out.

for my sis with chiari, they only cover pain meds (and give $500/mo disability).. they don't cover stuff like spinal decompression surgery ($300,000) or the repair of that hardware when it breaks ($65,000), both of which she's already needed and she's only 25..

If I get in a wreck, then go out the next day and buy automotive insurance, who would expect the insurance carrier to pay to replace my car?

- forced healthcare, everyone has coverage, people without insurance are fined, like car insurance.

Damn socialism! I'm being forced to pay for services I know I won't use! Why should I pay for somebody's use of a firefighter squad when it's not MY house that's burning down?