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I can't remember what happened in the book exactly. But did anyone notice that despite being summoned by his mummy, Joff never showed up? He left the fight, and that was the last he was seen if I remember right.

Originally Posted by yankeessuck Well you cant fit that book into 10 episodes although 20 episodes seems excessive.

The show producers said in a recent interview that viewers should stop thinking of the books as seasons. A lot of people also assume that ASOS is being split up into two seasons. I doubt that's going to happen. What I think is more likely is we will have season 3 focus on ASOS and then season 4 will ASOS with a little bit of AFFC and (maybe) ADWD at the end. And then Seasons 5 and 6 will be a huge cluster of AFFC, ADWD, and maybe even a little bit of TWOW. I suspect seasons 4-6 will be structured very different from the books because viewers aren't going to tolerate characters disappearing for more than a season. IIRC, GRRM explained that the events of AFFC start a little before the events of ADWD and ADWD goes a little further than AFFC. Heck even going back to the first season of the show, I think some COK events/dialogue were pushed into the end. Soooo yeah.

tl;dr books =/= seasons anymore.

Originally Posted by yankeessuck Well you cant fit that book into 10 episodes although 20 episodes seems excessive.

There was a ton of stuff in ACoK and they seemed to manage although I hate the fact that they cut so much out and changed stupid things like killing off Irri and Rakharo.

Here are the changes I hated (I am putting them in a spoiler so I don't piss anyone off):


1. Making Bronn the City Watch commander.
2. Rakharo dying when they were in the Red Waste.
3. Leaving out the Bastard of Bolton.
4. The 13 in Qarth dying.
5. Danny having to go to The House of the Undying to get her dragons.
6. The killing of Irri to steal the dragons.
7. Renly being stabbed instead of having his throat cut.
8. Not mentioning the chain Tyrion had made and the sea battle on the Blackwater not to mention Stannis being on a ship and leading the charge and mounting the walls of the Red Keep.
9. Sir Rodrik Cassel being killed by Theon (if I remember correctly, he was killed by the Bastard of Bolton/Reek when he brought his men from the Dreadfort).
10. Leaving out the entire Reek scenes such as Sir Rodrik capturing him and killing the real Reek/fake Bastard of Bolton, Lady Hornwood eating her fingers.
11. Arya getting Jaqen H'ghar to free Roose Bolton, not having him help her escape.
12. Robb falling in love with the Volantis wench instead of Janye Westerling.
13. Leaving out Jojen and Meera Reed when Bran and Richon escape from Theon.
14. Jon Snow and how he gets involved with Ygritte and is captured by the Lord of Bones then meets Qhorin Halfhand after he has been captured.
15. Every thing about Jamie and Catelyn Stark.
16. The Northmen army not being at Riverrun where Catelyn helps Jamie escape.
17. Leaving out Danny and Jorah Mormont meeting Strong Belwas and Arstan Whitebeard while looking for a ship to leave Qarth although there still maybe a chance of this happening. If it doesn't, I hate it.

There is a ton more, but I am tired of listing them. I still enjoyed the 2nd season, but I thought they could have done so much more with it. There was no need to make so many changes and still put out a great product. I am sure a ton of you will disagree. This is just one fan's opinion that has read all of the books twice so far and loves GRRM writing (I know he signed off on the changes, but I think it was because he didn't want to upset the producers or HBO and not get paid).

Originally Posted by thebob101 There was a ton of stuff in ACoK and they seemed to manage although I hate the fact that they cut so much out and changed stupid things like killing off Irri and Rakharo. Here are the changes I hated (I am putting them in a spoiler so I don't piss anyone off): 1. Making Bronn the City Watch commander. 2. Rakharo dying when they were in the Red Waste. 3. Leaving out the Bastard of Bolton. 4. The 13 in Qarth dying. 5. Danny having to go to The House of the Undying to get her dragons. 6. The killing of Irri to steal the dragons. 7. Renly being stabbed instead of having his throat cut. 8. Not mentioning the chain Tyrion had made and the sea battle on the Blackwater not to mention Stannis being on a ship and leading the charge and mounting the walls of the Red Keep. 9. Sir Rodrik Cassel being killed by Theon (if I remember correctly, he was killed by the Bastard of Bolton/Reek when he brought his men from the Dreadfort). 10. Leaving out the entire Reek scenes such as Sir Rodrik capturing him and killing the real Reek/fake Bastard of Bolton, Lady Hornwood eating her fingers. 11. Arya getting Jaqen H'ghar to free Roose Bolton, not having him help her escape. 12. Robb falling in love with the Volantis wench instead of Janye Westerling. 13. Leaving out Jojen and Meera Reed when Bran and Richon escape from Theon. 14. Jon Snow and how he gets involved with Ygritte and is captured by the Lord of Bones then meets Qhorin Halfhand after he has been captured. 15. Every thing about Jamie and Catelyn Stark. 16. The Northmen army not being at Riverrun where Catelyn helps Jamie escape. 17. Leaving out Danny and Jorah Mormont meeting Strong Belwas and Arstan Whitebeard while looking for a ship to leave Qarth although there still maybe a chance of this happening. If it doesn't, I hate it. There is a ton more, but I am tired of listing them. I still enjoyed the 2nd season, but I thought they could have done so much more with it. There was no need to make so many changes and still put out a great product. I am sure a ton of you will disagree. This is just one fan's opinion that has read all of the books twice so far and loves GRRM writing (I know he signed off on the changes, but I think it was because he didn't want to upset the producers or HBO and not get paid).

3. Ramsays story will likely exist mostly as it was in the book they just put it off to give Theon more screentime next season. Having no Theon for a couple of seasons would be a problem
5. Likely they wanted to give her a clearer motivation for going there. That isnt a problem so much as it led to more whining.
8. Well the battle had to be cut down. Its just not realistic budget wise. Stannis going over the wall first did seem silly.
12. Irrelevant. We knew nothing about Jeyne Westerling anyway so if they were going to give them screentime might as well make up their own character. They shouldnt have had sex until he found about Bran and Rickon being dead though.
14. I agree with that one. I get they wanted to give him more scenes but it doesnt work as well.
15. Jaime shouldnt have killed Cleos. Not sure what you mean about Catelyn.
17. Doesnt matter if they meet them elsewhere.

Alot of that stuff just seems super minor and borderline irrelevant.

Originally Posted by yankeessuck 3. Ramsays story will likely exist mostly as it was in the book they just put it off to give Theon more screentime next season. Having no Theon for a couple of seasons would be a problem 5. Likely they wanted to give her a clearer motivation for going there. That isnt a problem so much as it led to more whining. 8. Well the battle had to be cut down. Its just not realistic budget wise. Stannis going over the wall first did seem silly. 12. Irrelevant. We knew nothing about Jeyne Westerling anyway so if they were going to give them screentime might as well make up their own character. They shouldnt have had sex until he found about Bran and Rickon being dead though. 14. I agree with that one. I get they wanted to give him more scenes but it doesnt work as well. 15. Jaime shouldnt have killed Cleos. Not sure what you mean about Catelyn. 17. Doesnt matter if they meet them elsewhere. Alot of that stuff just seems super minor and borderline irrelevant.

And now my rebuttal (all in good fun):


5. She had motivation in the book to go there. She was trying to get out of Qarth and none of the 13 would give her any money or boats without her giving up a dragon. She needed to speak to the warlocks to find out information about her future and see if she could secure passage and money to Westeros to claim her throne.
8. I definitely think they had the budget to go bigger with the battle or at least make it a bit more realistic. If they could film the after battle scenes with Robb and had the scenery of beyond the Wall, they definitely could have made the battle ground a bit more realistic rather than a tiny dirty beach. Everything seemed small this season. The room Cersei was in during the battle, the battle itself, the tourney for Joff's birthday.
12. It is relevant because in the later books, there is the issue of her having Robb's child and the family being pardoned by Tywin and the Iron Thrones for their part in War in the North. There are scenes (I believe it is when Jamie goes to Riverrun to capture the Blackfish and sends Jenye home with her parents. The mother tells Jamie that she "dealt" with the possibility of Jenye being pregnant, but when they are leaving, the description Jamie gives of Jenye does not match her original description hinting that she is elsewhere with Robb's child. That would screw up the claim the Bastard has on Winterfell with the fake Arya, not to mention the Northmen rallying around the possible son of their dead king.
15. The Riverrun location is important because it is a central location for the Northmen and the Riverland's army. Robb is off battling in the Westerlands and wins at Oxcross which is where he meets Jenye. The whole point is Robb snubbed the Freys with a girl who is of low birth as far as noble houses are concerned. Not to mention it is the birthplace of Catelyn and where she is confined to watch her father die. Her brother and uncle are an important part of the story in later books.
17. I suppose the meeting could be part of next season. I am sure they will change that too. It just seems like if they are going to go with the book a season (I know someone else posted that the producers said for people to stop thinking about season/book thing, but that is how the first two seasons have been portrayed), that would be a great cliffhanger to have Barristan the Bold come back to help Danny.

I am a fan of the show, but I am a bigger fan of the books and I guess I hate to see so much changed. I still think it is a hell of a show and I am stoked it has been picked up for a third season (although I never doubted it wouldn't be). Everything in the book can easily be translated to the small screen without these changes.

Originally Posted by thebob101 I am a fan of the show, but I am a bigger fan of the books and I guess I hate to see so much changed. I still think it is a hell of a show and I am stoked it has been picked up for a third season (although I never doubted it wouldn't be). Everything in the book can easily be translated to the small screen without these changes.

While not impossible, I think a lot of the changes just have to do with budget and pacing. The supporting cast just blew up in book 2 and I'd almost rather have "known" characters take on additional/combined roles than have a new face pop-in for a few minutes and never again (or until next season). It just gets confusing for people that are new to Westoros.

I'm curious though, will we see a more linear story overall? All this talk of book 3/4 does not simply equal season 3/4. Less hopping around and we may see characters around a little later than we're expecting.

Most of the changes are to pace the show better for couch potatos that don't read...and, therefore, don't exactly have the biggest attention span. Took my dad a couple days to figure out why Tyrion told three different people three different plans to wed Myrcella. Another reason for changes is to combine characters so that, like the books, you don't have to remember 500 names, who they're related to, which lord they're loyal to, etc.

It's how TV works. Get too complex with things and you cannibalize your own success. That's why HBO's greatest show, IMO, "The Wire" didn't have nearly as much public appreciation as they did critic appreciation. For viewers, they either watched it and loved it, or couldn't get past the first few episodes and gave up. Dialog wasn't dumbed down, lots of characters to remember, etc. As complex as George's books are, to be 100% faithful to them would be counterproductive for what really matters: ratings. That's why every other scene on this show is tits.

I see both of your points Bloodbooger and crunchb3rry. I wish ratings weren't so important, but I guess without ratings we wouldn't have GoT. In the end, I am just glad they made the books into a show. Here's hoping the run makes it through 7+ seasons so GRRM can finish this damn series. Maybe the show will put a fire under his arse so he will finish book 6 and 7 and not take 6 years between each one.

Originally Posted by crunchb3rry That's why HBO's greatest show, IMO, "The Wire" didn't have nearly as much public appreciation as they did critic appreciation. For viewers, they either watched it and loved it, or couldn't get past the first few episodes and gave up.

The first few episodes of each season were exposition, with little going on. That didn't help much. The show also made clear that there are no "good guys," and that there were no sacred cows (i.e., anyone could die at any time). So you really had to pay attention early on to understand/enjoy the program, and they took the typical protagonist/antagonist silliness and threw it out the window. Sure, you may have liked McNulty, but he wasn't the "good guy" anymore than D'Angelo Barksdale was a "bad guy."

If you watched the show, you knew that the "main character" was Baltimore, and everything revolved around that city as a living, breathing organism that will go on, day after day, with or without you as a part of it.

Man, still the best show on television. I wish I liked "Treme" a quarter as much.

Game of Thrones is similar(ish). The Iron Throne is the main character in the series that everything revolves around - a thing, not a person. Everyone's story ebbs and flows, but that's the central piece that ties it all together. There are no formal protagonists or antagonists - I think the television program is slow in moving in that direction (i.e., to most viewers, the show's central conflict is "Stark vs. Lannister"), but it is moving in that direction. After reading the first book, I thought "wait, the Starks aren't the 'main characters' in this, are they?" - the show certainly wouldn't have led me to that conclusion.

thebob, now that there's an HBO contract to honor, that fire *is* lit to finish the series. Prior to the show, he had only himself to please, yes? Or just demanding fans? With a television program, there are deadlines, and therefore I'm confident HBO will ensure that constant progress is made. With that much money on the line, it will get done. Informal pressure has been replaced by formal.

At the end of the day you just have to be able to accept that TV/movie adaptations of your favorite books are going to change things and usually be inferior to the books. Books are just a superior story telling mechanism as there's no need to rush things, you can really get into the heads of characters which you just can't do on film etc.

So I just view them as separate more or less, and don't spend much time thinking about what they've changed, whether I like the changes or not. As long as the show/movie stands on its own and I enjoy it on its own merits that's all that matters.

Honestly, I don't think I'd like adaptations that were 100% true to the book as I already have that story in my head so it's kind of boring to just see someone else visualize it on screen.

Books are best medium for exposition. Best medium for story telling is up for debate, but it probably depends on the material. I personally can't stand RR's complete (what I believe to be) self serving piles of exposition, which doesn't do anything to push the story forward.

You can find examples of these piles of exposition from A) all of book four, and B) all of book five.

Originally Posted by thebob101 And now my rebuttal (all in good fun): 5. She had motivation in the book to go there. She was trying to get out of Qarth and none of the 13 would give her any money or boats without her giving up a dragon. She needed to speak to the warlocks to find out information about her future and see if she could secure passage and money to Westeros to claim her throne. 8. I definitely think they had the budget to go bigger with the battle or at least make it a bit more realistic. If they could film the after battle scenes with Robb and had the scenery of beyond the Wall, they definitely could have made the battle ground a bit more realistic rather than a tiny dirty beach. Everything seemed small this season. The room Cersei was in during the battle, the battle itself, the tourney for Joff's birthday. 12. It is relevant because in the later books, there is the issue of her having Robb's child and the family being pardoned by Tywin and the Iron Thrones for their part in War in the North. There are scenes (I believe it is when Jamie goes to Riverrun to capture the Blackfish and sends Jenye home with her parents. The mother tells Jamie that she "dealt" with the possibility of Jenye being pregnant, but when they are leaving, the description Jamie gives of Jenye does not match her original description hinting that she is elsewhere with Robb's child. That would screw up the claim the Bastard has on Winterfell with the fake Arya, not to mention the Northmen rallying around the possible son of their dead king. 15. The Riverrun location is important because it is a central location for the Northmen and the Riverland's army. Robb is off battling in the Westerlands and wins at Oxcross which is where he meets Jenye. The whole point is Robb snubbed the Freys with a girl who is of low birth as far as noble houses are concerned. Not to mention it is the birthplace of Catelyn and where she is confined to watch her father die. Her brother and uncle are an important part of the story in later books. 17. I suppose the meeting could be part of next season. I am sure they will change that too. It just seems like if they are going to go with the book a season (I know someone else posted that the producers said for people to stop thinking about season/book thing, but that is how the first two seasons have been portrayed), that would be a great cliffhanger to have Barristan the Bold come back to help Danny. I am a fan of the show, but I am a bigger fan of the books and I guess I hate to see so much changed. I still think it is a hell of a show and I am stoked it has been picked up for a third season (although I never doubted it wouldn't be). Everything in the book can easily be translated to the small screen without these changes.

5. But its still clearer here. I couldnt even recall why she went there in the books and that made me think it must not have been important and after reading what you said it wasnt.
8. They had to convince HBO to let them do a battle in the first place so yeah they could have gone bigger but not if you want to show to last. Its impressive we got as much as we did.
12. How does that make her relevant? Everything you just said could still apply to this new character. We knew nothing about Jeynes personality so in a sense the only thing that changes in her name.
15. Well Riverun is in next year
17. Not sure he would be remembered well enough by the tv viewers to work as a cliffhanger.

Originally Posted by mykevermin The first few episodes of each season were exposition, with little going on. That didn't help much.

That was exactly what I'd tell people when I tried to get them into the show. "The first couple episodes are all just introducing characters and whatnot. Just get to like the 3rd or 4th episode and you'll be hooked until the series finale." and they'd all watch those two episodes and give up. Their loss.

Originally Posted by crunchb3rry That was exactly what I'd tell people when I tried to get them into the show. "The first couple episodes are all just introducing characters and whatnot. Just get to like the 3rd or 4th episode and you'll be hooked until the series finale." and they'd all watch those two episodes and give up. Their loss.

THIS!!!!!! The Wire was ing amazing!

Originally Posted by crunchb3rry That was exactly what I'd tell people when I tried to get them into the show. "The first couple episodes are all just introducing characters and whatnot. Just get to like the 3rd or 4th episode and you'll be hooked until the series finale." and they'd all watch those two episodes and give up. Their loss.

Send them this.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq6...nes_shortfilms

I describe the show to my reticent friends as Lord of the Rings but with Zombies and Hookers.

the walking dead...
well I will be back in this thread next year

Originally Posted by Msut77 Send them this. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq6...nes_shortfilms I describe the show to my reticent friends as Lord of the Rings but with Zombies and Hookers.

I was talking about The Wire. I tell people to watch this and they're like "I haven't had HBO since The Sopranos."

As for the finale WTF? First they kill Irri, then lock Doreah in a vault? Those are some pretty pointless "changes" from the books. And Old Man Winter at end? I guess they felt the need to just drop in a White Walkers scene so people haven't forgotten about them. Show Danny hallucinating being north of The Wall is some interesting foreshadowing.

OK, burning question I need answered about the assassin: since he can shapeshift, is he Arya's original teacher? It never occurred to me until they made connections to his origin that we never learned the fate of her swordmaster friend. It would totally make sense that he was locked up and by chance (or plot device rather) ended up in her camp as a prisoner. So without spoiling anything am I right or wrong?

Originally Posted by Jodou OK, burning question I need answered about the assassin: since he can shapeshift, is he Arya's original teacher? It never occurred to me until they made connections to his origin that we never learned the fate of her swordmaster friend. It would totally make sense that he was locked up and by chance (or plot device rather) ended up in her camp as a prisoner. So without spoiling anything am I right or wrong?

George brought up the fact he wasn't immortal when asked about his whereabouts IIRC

Doesn't really answer your question though

Hey Theon: