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What a mess. My wife was all for this bill until I told her that myself and our daughter would probably be stopped for ze papers if we ever visited Arizona.

I'm actually looking forward to a confrontation with the police on the matter if I should ever drive through the state or visit for business.

Originally Posted by depascal22 What a mess. My wife was all for this bill until I told her that myself (sic) and our daughter would probably be stopped for ze papers if we ever visited Arizona. I'm actually looking forward to a confrontation with the police on the matter if I should ever drive through the state or visit for business.

Wow. I read this whole thread and there is a ton of misinformation. Have any of you even read the bill? I have.

Please refer to:
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBil....x=6&image.y=7

and
http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1304.html
and
http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode...6----000-.html

The law essentially provides provisions for local Arizona officials to help with the enforcement of pre-exisiting federal law. Read 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) and 1306(a). If you are a resident alien in the US above age 18, you are required by federal law to carry proof of Alien Registration.

There is no provision that allows police to just ask someone to show them papers at random... this can only occur when the police stops you for a legitimate reason (traffic violation, suspcion of a crime, or if you are arrested). Then, if they suspect that you may be illegal, they can further look into the issue.

The requirements for proof are rather lenient:
a) a valid Arizona driver license or nonoperating identification license;
b) a valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification; or
c) a valid U.S. federal, state or local government issued identification if the entity requires proof of legal presence in the U.S. before issuance.

Personally, I find the DMCA and patriot act more objectionable. This law is really not as wide reaching as it has been represented. If you disagree, please show me where I'm wrong...

Suspicion of a crime..... I suspect you have drugs because you're Mexican. Oops. Because you're carrying a backpack. Now how about we see them papers, boy. See how that works?

What about the dude that doesn't carry his ID when he grabs a gallon of milk at the corner store? Let's say cops roll by and think he's a perfect match for an APB. On top of it, the cops suspect he's an illegal alien. Do you think the cops are going to let him run and grab his ID?

I've been pulled over for Driving While Black. Don't give me this bullshit about the cops just going by the letter of any law.

Writing a law is one thing. Enforcing it is another. Gov. Brewer admitted she doesn't know what an illegal immigrant looks like. I guess cops do? Awesome, let's keep signing laws that are impossible to enforce.

I agree with BigT to some extent, this is overblown. A ing boycott of Arizona? Are you kidding me?

But I think although the law may be written in a way to save political (brown) face, enforcing the law is going to be something else entirely. I think that's where most of the anger is coming from. How are they supposed to determine reasonable suspicion without stereotyping? I'd love to meet the cop that can do that and have 0 false positives.

Originally Posted by depascal22 Suspicion of a crime..... I suspect you have drugs because you're Mexican. Oops. Because you're carrying a backpack. Now how about we see them papers, boy. See how that works? What about the dude that doesn't carry his ID when he grabs a gallon of milk at the corner store? Let's say cops roll by and think he's a perfect match for an APB. On top of it, the cops suspect he's an illegal alien. Do you think the cops are going to let him run and grab his ID? I've been pulled over for Driving While Black. Don't give me this bullshit about the cops just going by the letter of any law.

Driving While Black is the perfect analogy for this.

Originally Posted by BigT Wow. I read this whole thread and there is a ton of misinformation. Have any of you even read the bill? I have. Please refer to: http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBil....x=6&image.y=7 and http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1304.html and http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode...6----000-.html The law essentially provides provisions for local Arizona officials to help with the enforcement of pre-exisiting federal law. Read 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) and 1306(a). If you are a resident alien in the US above age 18, you are required by federal law to carry proof of Alien Registration. There is no provision that allows police to just ask someone to show them papers at random... this can only occur when the police stops you for a legitimate reason (traffic violation, suspcion of a crime, or if you are arrested). Then, if they suspect that you may be illegal, they can further look into the issue. The requirements for proof are rather lenient: a) a valid Arizona driver license or nonoperating identification license; b) a valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification; or c) a valid U.S. federal, state or local government issued identification if the entity requires proof of legal presence in the U.S. before issuance. Personally, I find the DMCA and patriot act more objectionable. This law is really not as wide reaching as it has been represented. If you disagree, please show me where I'm wrong...

I guess the biggest issue is that we're going to have to trust that police officers will not find a way to abuse this law.

Originally Posted by docvinh I guess the biggest issue is that we're going to have to trust that police officers will not find a way to abuse this law.

What amuses me, so many people are saying that you can't trust them not to abuse their power.

As if there's something about government employees abusing their power... I mean, that never happens. Let's give them some more power. Should be fun when all the doctors are government employees. Wait until you're "Sick While Black".

Originally Posted by depascal22 What a mess. My wife was all for this bill until I told her that myself and our daughter would probably be stopped for ze papers if we ever visited Arizona. I'm actually looking forward to a confrontation with the police on the matter if I should ever drive through the state or visit for business.

Originally Posted by depascal22 Suspicion of a crime..... I suspect you have drugs because you're Mexican. Oops. Because you're carrying a backpack. Now how about we see them papers, boy. See how that works? What about the dude that doesn't carry his ID when he grabs a gallon of milk at the corner store? Let's say cops roll by and think he's a perfect match for an APB. On top of it, the cops suspect he's an illegal alien. Do you think the cops are going to let him run and grab his ID? I've been pulled over for Driving While Black. Don't give me this bullshit about the cops just going by the letter of any law.

First of all, what you just described already happens in Arizona and has always happened in Arizona. Nothing will change in that regard.

Last I checked there are not a ton of black people streaming across the border in Az, so I don't think you should be too worried about asking for proof of being here legally.

Originally Posted by docvinh I guess the biggest issue is that we're going to have to trust that police officers will not find a way to abuse this law.

Originally Posted by BigT Wow. I read this whole thread and there is a ton of misinformation. Have any of you even read the bill? I have. Please refer to: http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBil....x=6&image.y=7 and http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1304.html and http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode...6----000-.html The law essentially provides provisions for local Arizona officials to help with the enforcement of pre-exisiting federal law. Read 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) and 1306(a). If you are a resident alien in the US above age 18, you are required by federal law to carry proof of Alien Registration. There is no provision that allows police to just ask someone to show them papers at random... this can only occur when the police stops you for a legitimate reason (traffic violation, suspcion of a crime, or if you are arrested). Then, if they suspect that you may be illegal, they can further look into the issue. The requirements for proof are rather lenient: a) a valid Arizona driver license or nonoperating identification license; b) a valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification; or c) a valid U.S. federal, state or local government issued identification if the entity requires proof of legal presence in the U.S. before issuance. Personally, I find the DMCA and patriot act more objectionable. This law is really not as wide reaching as it has been represented. If you disagree, please show me where I'm wrong...

1070 (the AZ law) uses the "reasonable suspicion" standard for stopping someone.

Go revisit section 13-1509 of sb1070:

42 A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF 43 TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 44 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 45 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a).

Hey, being in the states illegally is a crime - therefore, a person can be detained based on reasonable suspicion of being here illegally.

Originally Posted by xxDOYLExx

I find it highly hilarious they had Raul Grizalva on the news talking about this fiasco. Also... If this were the case everyone except for maybe Indians would be "immigrants" to this place we call "America"...

Originally Posted by VipFREAK I find it highly hilarious they had Raul Grizalva on the news talking about this fiasco. Also... If this were the case everyone except for maybe Indians would be "immigrants" to this place we call "America"...

Sure, but the only immigrants that "count" are the white ones that are REAL AMERICANS.

We really need to just do one of the following:

A) Repeal all immigration laws and abolish the INS. Put neon signs on the border that say "Abierto para todos!"

or

B) Start enforcing our existing laws.


Why is it more complicated than that? Why do so many people think we can, and should, do something in-between?

Why can't Mexicans be more like Canadians?

Originally Posted by thrustbucket We really need to just do one of the following: A) Repeal all immigration laws and abolish the INS. Put neon signs on the border that say "Abierto para todos!" or B) Start enforcing our existing laws. Why is it more complicated than that? Why do so many people think we can, and should, do something in-between?

You're not going far enough for Plan A covers more than just policing it. Even if we open it up, other areas of government will be hit harder.

Plan B is what we should be doing, but no one is doing it. Why?

Originally Posted by xycury Plan B is what we should be doing, but no one is doing it. Why?

That's easy. Look at the news headlines. We don't have the political will to threaten 20+ million potential voters.

Originally Posted by fatherofcaitlyn Why can't Mexicans be more like Canadians?

What are you talking aboot, neither can speak english. Ask a Canadian what time it is and your assaulted with "Je ne comprends pas ce que vous dites".

Originally Posted by xycury Plan B is what we should be doing, but no one is doing it. Why?

Like it or not, answer is simple: tons of industries rely on the cheap labor.

I'm willing to bet the people in power in Arizona have had tons of interactions with people who could be deported at the drop of the hat. Respectfully said, let's not mince words here - the day laborers (maids, construction, gardening, etc) are going to fall into this category.

A way to troll this law (if you're kind of a double edged sword bastard) would be to rat out this group from the bourgeois. Find who works for the governor, or the rich people, or whatever, and set your traps. Course, you're playing with the lives of hard working people, but at the same time, you're sending a message. Hence why I said it's a double edge here.

Point is, our country wants to throw up some nonsense about how we hate these illegal groups being around. But we absolutely are standing on their backs. Industries lose out on this labor, and I guarantee you they'll raise prices, having been cushy for the last few decades on their infinite access to those willing to work for lower pay.

So I don't know what the answer is. But let's not faf about here - enforcing these things is going to have a lot of aftershocks echoing around endlessly, and by the time Joe Teabagger finds out prices for certain services and products is jumping up, we'll have wasted billions in taxpayer money fending off something we can't win.

This is just another drug war, Iraq war, building your sand castle too close to the waves situation.

Originally Posted by thrustbucket First of all, what you just described already happens in Arizona and has always happened in Arizona. Nothing will change in that regard. Last I checked there are not a ton of black people streaming across the border in Az, so I don't think you should be too worried about asking for proof of being here legally.

Last time I checked, most people assume I'm Puerto Rican or another Hispanic nationality. I can't tell you how many people come up to me and start speaking Spanish only to get frustrated because I'm not fluent.

Also, many black people of Hispanic descent are flowing across the border. Did you forget that the Spanish also held slaves in the Caribbean and Central America? Dark scary Spanish speaking people are coming across this border as we speak and if they're smart, they're making a run to the "urban" stores first.

So you're telling me that cops will automatically and correctly assume that I'm black and not Hispanic while I'm driving through the crappy state of Arizona?

As for you Uncle Bob, don't equate the institutional racism of police departments around this country with a new program by the government. With your logic, if I don't like one branch of local government, I must hate and distrust EVERY branch of local, state, and federal government. You make no sense, dude.