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Originally Posted by GBAstar I agree with you on a lot of points but most countries DO "leave children behind" and to be honest I'm all for it. We we can't funnel willing kids into vocational schools/programs at an early(ier) age is beyond me. My highschool used to have a very good tech and forestry program (I live in Maine afterall) but they were forced to shut it down because it was considered "frivelous" spending and the thought was that the money should be pumped back into math and english departments so that those students in the tech classes would score better on their MEA's (Maine Educational Assessements)

Wow we agree on this. I think vocational programs are great as long as countries don't exploit the kids.

For example - in China, Foxconn is able to get students to fill in on assembly lines when a new IPhone or IPad is launched. That ain't right.

It's funny just how capitalistic some supposedly communistic countries can be sometimes.

You guys forgot to mention how the teaching profession is shit on constantly as evidenced in this thread.

Whoever coined the phase "Those who do; do. Those who can't; teach," needs a punch in the mouth from Mike Tyson.

Originally Posted by dohdough You guys forgot to mention how the teaching profession is shit on constantly as evidenced in this thread. Whoever coined the phase "Those who do; do. Those who can't; teach," needs a punch in the mouth from Mike Tyson.

Yep, the lack of respect doesn't help. Especially when dealing with parents.

I'll eat some crow on the school day length. Just read that before this increase the CPS school day was a hour shorter than the average school day nationwide, and the school year two weeks shorter. So it was a case that they weren't working "enough." And this is a case where the Dept. of Ed needs more power as such things should be standard in all public schools around the country so all kid sat least get the same amount of education time per year.

Good column on the strike here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/op...ml?ref=opinion

And if they tried to mandate a minimum school day length you'd have "some" people complaining about government power overreaching.

Of course. That's always going to be the case for anything.

But we need basic standards in education across the country in simple things like length of school day and length of school year. Especially since our averages are shorter than in many countries as is.

I can't say I'm worried about this. The Israeli Nazi will put those ungrateful teachers in their place!!!!! /end sarcasm

I had to call Rahm his real name. Just remember whenever you're talking about Rahm derisively to call him the Israeli Nazi.

edit: dmaul don't forget we need to stop trying to cram more education into the student's heads with fewer time each day(see block scheduling and weighted classes). Even very intelligent students need to have breathing room for that information to really set in and real life classwork or interviews with people or discussions with those people in the classroom to reinforce that. If you're teaching a class on India and some of the religions, get someone from the community who lived there most of their life to discuss the region they lived in and the experience they had in the history being studied(Goa, Amritsar, Patna, Delhi, Bhopal, etc.). For religion, bringing in a Sikh, Buddhist(be they Mahayana or earlier), Hindu or Vedic practitioner.
If you're a class who happens to get into talking about mercury poisoning, speak to those who lived through it's effects and saw it directly. This, more then anything, would be great to cover with students as mercury poisoning I think is abstract to most of us. We really don't know about it's effects. I mean we may have heard of them but not truly seen any video of it. Hearing firsthand from victims in Minamata would be tremendously helpful.
Oh and I would like to add as part of this firsthand experience that this is why I still remember some of the information from the genetics course I took in High School over 10 years ago, very much because it concerned me.

Is there anyone that teaches here?

I have been lurking these forums for a long time and do not post very often but there is a large lack of understanding of what it is to teach in the current environment. I am quoting Chiwii but I do not mean this as an attack - he/she just brought up common misunderstandings that I would like to address.

Some background: I have a B.S. and M.S. (thesis/research based) in ChemEng. then went into teaching because I enjoy it and because I can fill a pretty large demand. Teaching offers great flexibility in location (way more so than chemE) although the pay is far less - a trade-off that I had to think long and hard about. This is my 3rd year teaching chem/ap chem.

Originally Posted by chiwii How can school districts and states continue to fund schools and teachers at the same level when tax revenues are dropping? Teaching is naturally more secure than law, engineering, etc., even without the union protections. Teachers are rarely let go in the middle of a semester, so they can feel secure through the semester. Their jobs can't be outsourced, and the majority of schools will stay open, despite the recession.

Naturally more secure totally untrue. Not sure what you do for a living but new teachers have very little job security - especially if you teach younger kids. Science teachers are somewhat more secure but biology is a bit flooded. Depends on your state but in general you can be fired in the first 3 months for any reason regardless of the union. It is the best time to get rid of someone really ineffective and it does happen (I've seen it). Tenure comes after 3 "successful" years and before this the union can only do a little (very little) to "save" you although they will try if it seems unreasonable. Still, if admins want you gone, then you are gone. After tenure you can still get fired but it takes a lot more work to do so from admins including well documented cases/reasons/evidence. I've seen teachers (who are better teachers than me) under post-tenure attack simply because of local politics and it would be a real shame to the students if they were gone.

Originally Posted by chiwii Oh, and they get summers off, lots of nice long breaks around the holidays, etc. That's a perk. Seriously, who hasn't been stuck at the office on a beautiful summer day and thought about how they could be at the beach, if only they had become a teacher.

For clarity's sake. We do get 8 weeks off in the summer but most non-teachers think it is a full 3 months. During this time I work without pay on curriculum, new labs/methods, seminars on how to teach things etc (sometimes these are paid for by the district, sometimes not). Holiday breaks are amazing and without them I would lose my sanity - not even kidding. I know a lot of jobs are stressful but I have never been so mentally and physically drained. It honestly caught me by surprise as you are not really prepared for it no matter how much you hear about it. However, it does get a little better with time and practice.

As many of you know the 7 hour day is true on paper but untrue in reality. I arrive at school at about 6 - 6:30am and leave school at about 3-5pm (it varies depending on how much lab prep I need to do for the following day). I then come home and plan for tomorrow, make worksheets, and grade. Most of the time it ends up being at least an 11 hour day. Furthermore, during the 7 hour school day there is literally no downtime - at all. I mean I can't even pee when I need to go and forget about a #2! That took some serious getting used to!! Before school starts and during my 45 min prep I run around like a headless chicken setting up labs/photocopying etc., doing all this crazy paperwork that just takes time away from planning and students bla bla. It is not some honeyhole of awesomeness that's for sure. Constantly being "on" takes a lot out of you.

Originally Posted by chiwii According to the census, the average household income in Chicago is about $47,000. So, compared to the citizens in their city, they're doing well. If these teachers are so concerned about funding for art-related programs, school closings, and lay-offs of fellow teachers, why are they still demanding a raise?

Hmmm, that 47k number probably includes people working at Walmart. Seriously, it is a professional career (I have 7+ years of schooling for this including my science background and ed. classes) that requires constant improvement to stay relevant - we should be paid higher - most careers should pay more than burger joints. C'mon. Also, most high school teachers make nowhere near 70k until you have been doing it for 15 years and have a PhD! I am glad they get paid so high because if I worked in an inner city chicago school i would buy my own kevlar vest (which can run like 700 bucks and you need a new one every 3 yrs or so)!

Originally Posted by chiwii With "high-stakes testing", are you referring to the teacher evaluations where 25-40% of the evaluation is based on test results? It doesn't seem outrageous to me that a portion of a teacher's evaluation should be based on test results. Is the method of teacher evaluation really something that at teachers union should be able to strike over? It seems crazy to me that an entire city school district is shut down because the teachers don't like the way they're going to be evaluated.

Evals are definitely needed but here is what everyone forgets... A 10th grader fails his state math test that is required for graduation - who do you fire??? The 10th grade math teacher? The 9th grade math teacher? The 6 previous math teachers that pushed this kid through because he was just too difficult to teach? The English teacher because he couldn't read or understand what the question was asking? You can't possibly link a state test that is only given once every few years to the current teacher with any degree of certainty! If an admin wanted you gone they just overload you with difficult students and you might as well say goodbye. At the same time the "best" teachers from this standpoint might be the ones that only teach AP. How about the teachers that teach classes where there is no required state exam? Like history classes? That eval system is not fair and not consistent. You wouldn't weed out bad teachers - just the unlucky ones (and might even lose a few great ones).

To put it from a business perspective...Students aren't simply products that either function or don't function - there is a history of "usage" that has to be considered, and the funds required for such an evaluation would just take funds away from teachers that could be used for improved teaching conditions (like hiring another teacher so you can get class down to 18)

---
Anyway, I enjoy teaching and I don't mean to complain (it does have its highs but also has its lows) but people need to seriously stop crapping on the profession. We try out best everyday and most of us just want to help people so that they can have a better life.

Also to anyone that thinks teaching is some amazingly secure job where you make bank then stop complaining, go get your teaching cert. and reap the sweet benefits. I'll even give you free tips on how to start the process and get a teaching job - because we definitely need more teachers.

Thanks for all of your comments. I do know a number of teachers (friends and family), but I am not one.

Anyway, I'm curious about what you, as a teacher, think of the CPS strike.

Originally Posted by ToadallyAwesome Naturally more secure totally untrue. Not sure what you do for a living but new teachers have very little job security - especially if you teach younger kids. Science teachers are somewhat more secure but biology is a bit flooded. Depends on your state but in general you can be fired in the first 3 months for any reason regardless of the union. It is the best time to get rid of someone really ineffective and it does happen (I've seen it). Tenure comes after 3 "successful" years and before this the union can only do a little (very little) to "save" you although they will try if it seems unreasonable. Still, if admins want you gone, then you are gone. After tenure you can still get fired but it takes a lot more work to do so from admins including well documented cases/reasons/evidence. I've seen teachers (who are better teachers than me) under post-tenure attack simply because of local politics and it would be a real shame to the students if they were gone.

While I don't doubt that teachers could be fired in the middle of a semester or that tenured teachers can be fired, I assume that it is rare. Is that a fair statement?

Originally Posted by ToadallyAwesome As many of you know the 7 hour day is true on paper but untrue in reality. I arrive at school at about 6 - 6:30am and leave school at about 3-5pm (it varies depending on how much lab prep I need to do for the following day). I then come home and plan for tomorrow, make worksheets, and grade. Most of the time it ends up being at least an 11 hour day. Furthermore, during the 7 hour school day there is literally no downtime - at all. I mean I can't even pee when I need to go and forget about a #2! That took some serious getting used to!! Before school starts and during my 45 min prep I run around like a headless chicken setting up labs/photocopying etc., doing all this crazy paperwork that just takes time away from planning and students bla bla. It is not some honeyhole of awesomeness that's for sure. Constantly being "on" takes a lot out of you.

Good points about being "always on." In a typical professional offce job, if we don't have anything that needs to get done right away, we can take a quick walk to get some fresh air, go to a doctor's appointment, even decide to take the day off at the last minute if we want (depending on the specific job and boss, of course). That flexibility is nice, and it's something that teacher's certainly don't have during the school year.

Originally Posted by ToadallyAwesome Hmmm, that 47k number probably includes people working at Walmart. Seriously, it is a professional career (I have 7+ years of schooling for this including my science background and ed. classes) that requires constant improvement to stay relevant - we should be paid higher - most careers should pay more than burger joints. C'mon. Also, most high school teachers make nowhere near 70k until you have been doing it for 15 years and have a PhD! I am glad they get paid so high because if I worked in an inner city chicago school i would buy my own kevlar vest (which can run like 700 bucks and you need a new one every 3 yrs or so)!

Yes, the 47k number is an average household income, so it would include non-skilled workers. I'm not implying that teachers in Chicago should be making the same as non-skilled workers. I only brought up that figure to illustrate that Chicago is not a very high-income/high-cost city.

Regarding the average 70k salary - I'm aware that most school districts don't pay as well as CPS. I was only mentioning the salaries of the CPS teachers, since they're the ones on strike.

Originally Posted by ToadallyAwesome Evals are definitely needed but here is what everyone forgets... A 10th grader fails his state math test that is required for graduation - who do you fire??? The 10th grade math teacher? The 9th grade math teacher? The 6 previous math teachers that pushed this kid through because he was just too difficult to teach? The English teacher because he couldn't read or understand what the question was asking? You can't possibly link a state test that is only given once every few years to the current teacher with any degree of certainty! If an admin wanted you gone they just overload you with difficult students and you might as well say goodbye. At the same time the "best" teachers from this standpoint might be the ones that only teach AP. How about the teachers that teach classes where there is no required state exam? Like history classes? That eval system is not fair and not consistent. You wouldn't weed out bad teachers - just the unlucky ones (and might even lose a few great ones). To put it from a business perspective...Students aren't simply products that either function or don't function - there is a history of "usage" that has to be considered, and the funds required for such an evaluation would just take funds away from teachers that could be used for improved teaching conditions (like hiring another teacher so you can get class down to 18)

I think most people understand that evaluating teachers is difficult, but the current system just isn't working. People (imo, administrators, teachers, and students) need to be held accountable for the dismal state of these schools. What's the percentage of Chicago Public School freshman who graduate? I thnk it's something crazy low, like 60%.

Originally Posted by ToadallyAwesome --- Anyway, I enjoy teaching and I don't mean to complain (it does have its highs but also has its lows) but people need to seriously stop crapping on the profession. We try out best everyday and most of us just want to help people so that they can have a better life. Also to anyone that thinks teaching is some amazingly secure job where you make bank then stop complaining, go get your teaching cert. and reap the sweet benefits. I'll even give you free tips on how to start the process and get a teaching job - because we definitely need more teachers.

I sincerely apologize if I gave you the impression that I don't respect your profession. I'm just frustrated with the CPS strike.

Thanks for the comments and again I am not trying to fight and not really offended or anything. Just frustrated too.

So it is fair to say that you get laid off less as a teacher than in other positions but it really depends on what that other position would be and what kind of teaching position you have. About 20% of the new teachers I started with at the high school 3 years ago are gone, but that is only one anecdote and doesn't mean too much.

Admins are reluctant to get rid of you because there really is a shortage - especially in science. So as far as science teaching is concerned it is more secure because of demand and you can really find a job almost anywhere in the country and that is a huge perk. However, if you teach Art/History/robotics/other electives then you really are working from year to year and hope to keep your job - if the district decides to stop funding your elective then it doesn't matter if you have tenure or how good of a teacher you are.


Things are changing (curriculum and evals) but it takes a long time because of the nature of the job.

To get real change you need a systemic change from K - 12 and to notice if the change was effective takes at least half the student's (K-12) lifetime imo. You cant make some new policy and next year expect some statistically significant results.

My state just required a new eval system and currently teachers and admins are learning how to use this system. I think it is actually fair and improved but rather complicated and very time consuming for everyone. So there is a trade-off... a super ultra rigorous system to make sure you are teaching or... spend time with students that need extra help (instead of admins talking to difficult students or doing community outreach - they are doing paperwork.)

There is a actually a HUGE movement right now in the education sphere. The country has developed new math and english standards and the science standards are currently being debated. I like the move in science because there is more of a focus on problem solving/learning how to learn and less on cram them full of info!

For more info:
http://www7.nationalacademies.org/bo..._homepage.html

There is also a move to get rid of high stakes state-based testing for a high stakes national test to more readily compare states. It is called PARCC. This is probably a few years away before it is everywhere.

http://www.parcconline.org/about-parcc

Honestly, the most successful schools are the ones where the parents are involved and where the community has a sense that academics do matter. Not always the ones with the most rigorous eval systems. It is probably not even possible to get data on this because of how fragmented everything is.

Also, Those graduation rate numbers can be misleading. What they leave out is that those reported % are 4-YEAR high school graduation rates and that is how the state decides when to punish you. You can have a 5 year graduation rate of 95% but that doesnt matter. Kind of the situation my school is in now and I honestly had no idea this was going on until I started teaching.

Honestly, some kids just need another year or so - especially when you have a lot of transient students (students with no permanent home and move from district to district) and students that come to you and speak very little English and have to pass these catch-all exams for a degree, or students with huge emotional disabilities/horrid family life, have to work 8 hour jobs after school to support their family (sick mom/dad). Those are the ones lowering these rates and they are not failures in life or anything but just in bad situations and need more time.

To sum it up here is in the dilemma: From the media/state point of view...giving up and letting the kid drop-out is equivalent to working your butt off and making sure the kid gets an education but it happens to take 5 years because of various difficulties. So where should the school put it resources? Should you shove these kids out in 4 years by passing them through so you don't get slapped by the state?

How does this make any sense? I suspect Chicago is in a similar position and have lots of teaching challenges and that 60% is a 4-year rate.

They are striking because whatever is taken away will NEVER come back to the teachers when/if the situation improves. If you do well in a private business you can move up - not in education. Bargaining is the ONLY way you get anything at all. No district will ever say, hey we had a surplus this year, go ahead and give teachers a raise! So the unions are both really useful and totally senseless at the same time and no system in perfect - just have to pick your poison.

Off-topic
Also our schools are not tthaaaaat dismal when you compare us to other countries. We actually try to educate every single person here. Places like Finland (popular in the news these days) only test the top 1/3 of the country and those are the rates posted. They have extreme tracking (not to mention a very homogenous population) from a very young age. We actually had an admin visit from Finland as part of his schooling and he was SOOO surprised that everyone gets tested. It is really crazy stuff.

Originally Posted by chiwii Good points about being "always on." In a typical professional offce job, if we don't have anything that needs to get done right away, we can take a quick walk to get some fresh air, go to a doctor's appointment, even decide to take the day off at the last minute if we want (depending on the specific job and boss, of course). That flexibility is nice, and it's something that teacher's certainly don't have during the school year.

It's not even the lack of being able to take breaks. It's that when teaching you have to be "on" as you're engaging students, be it lecturing, leading class discussions etc. Maybe some down time while you're having them read or work on assignments in class, during exams etc. But that's it.

There are very few other professional jobs that require that. Most are people sitting at a computer doing their own work, with some meetings here and there. Or doing lab work with some meetings here and there etc. That just doesn't take the same amount of mental energy (and I know since I teach a couple days a week, and the other days work on my research and the former is far more mentally exhausting).

The closest thing in most professional jobs would be giving presentations and leading meetings, and few are doing that most of their shift every day.

So I have a lot of respect for K-12 teachers as I know how wiped I am just teaching a couple 1 hour 15 minute classes two days a week. I couldn't imagine doing that for 5-7 hours a day, 5 days a week. And then having to get the mental energy to do all the prep work, grading, etc. after hours.

noone FORCED these people to become teachers...

Dont like the contract QUIT and get a new job

no they will just cry and complain until they get what they want....


it would not shock me at all in the next 100 years (no im not saying tomorrow or next year) But sometime in the next 100 years if this crap that is going down today keeps going the way it is

it would not shock me at all if we had another civil war in the united states what is very sad to say.

Union delegates are consulting thousands of members on a compromise deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19619624

Under the proposed deal published by the union the evaluation system would be phased in over several years while the weighting of students' test results in teacher-evaluations would be reduced teachers' health care benefits would stay at current levels teachers would receive a 3% raise this year followed by 2% in the following two years a further increase would be included if the agreement went into a fourth year

It's just really easy to crap on any public servant, fact of the matter is that all this is about is getting misinformed people to turn on teachers so they can get the older higher payed teachers fired or forced to retire.

People need to take a step back like they pay soooo much money in taxes and start asking themselves "how do I get what you have?" instead of trying take what others have.

Originally Posted by ID2006 Union delegates are consulting thousands of members on a compromise deal. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19619624

yet they refuse it.. shows they are nothing but greedy pigs. you want to talk about corporations are evil greedy pigs.. Take a look at the chicago teacher system they dont give a damn about your children but the idoits will side with them

I have to imagine it's the evaluation system more than anything else.