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#1 Msut77

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

I am all for it.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#2 irideabike

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

no way, never would have guessed that.

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#3 Knoell

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:27 PM

Wow. I want one. No two. Yeaaah two :)

#4 ID2006

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

I'd love to see the reactions from some people. Jay Carney squirmed out of answering whether they would rule it out as an option yesterday.

#5 soonersfan60

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:59 PM

People that are for this don't understand economics.

Why not just mint 20 of these to wipe out the debt?

#6 speedracer

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

14th, section 4

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.

I'm still trying to figure out how the "debt ceiling vote" is even constitutional. The debt is authorized by virtue of the law that was passed that incurred it. "It shall not be questioned."

So uh...

edit: Hell, even the freepers agree that if invoked it probably wouldn't even be heard by the Supreme Court.

if Obama invoked the Fourteenth Amendment to raise the debt ceiling unilaterally, the most likely outcome is that the Supreme Court would refuse to hear the case. The conservative justices have long required clear evidence of legal “standing” before opening the courthouse door—something they showed in their recent 5-4 decision rejecting a taxpayer’s challenge to an Arizona school vouchers program—and it’s hard to imagine who could establish enough of a legal injury to establish standing in this case.


Even Heritage's opposition is total weak sauce:

At most, this clause might require the federal government to prioritize debt payments on existing debt, but no one doubts there is enough tax revenue to cover service on existing debt—without incurring more debt. Besides, the President’s unilateral action to add new debt in violation of a debt limit would not be “authorized by law” and so would be the opposite of what the clause requires.

Shockingly, Republicans don't like executive branch departments. Who authorized the executive the power to have departments? Oh right. Congress. Neeeeeeeeeeext:

In addition, unilateral action by the President to take on additional debt would be a clear violation of the Constitution’s separation of powers. After all, the Constitution vests in Congress—and withholds from the Executive—the power to commit to spending, to raise revenue by enacting taxes, and to incur public debt. The Fourteenth Amendment did not alter this. Congressional control of borrowing, through the debt limit, and section four of the amendment are in unison, not tension.

Really? The Solicitor General is going to have the 14th amendment in his hand and Congress's defense will be that it's a violation of the separation of powers... because the president is paying for what Congress has already authorized?

lolwut

Edited by speedracer, 10 January 2013 - 09:14 PM.

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#7 Msut77

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

People that are for this don't understand economics.


Im ok with that, because this isn't about economics.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#8 Dr Mario Kart

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

For it. Its marginally better than letting the terrorists Republicans sink the world economy.

Its purpose is not to deal with the debt. Its to deal with the concept of a debt ceiling, which by itself would not be a problem if it werent for Republicans.

#9 ID2006

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:38 AM

If the roles were reversed and they voted for the face, I bet the majority of the Republican party would vote to put Jesus on the coin. Or Reagan. It'd be a close match.

#10 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM

Idiotic.

#11 UncleBob

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

Its purpose is not to deal with the debt.


Of course it's not. No one expects government of any flavor to actually deal with the debt.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#12 Msut77

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:55 AM

Idiotic.


'splain.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#13 speedracer

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

Idiotic.

Why? Explain like I don't know why it's a bad idea because I don't.
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#14 Spokker

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:07 AM

Mint 16 of them and let's get it all over with.

#15 Msut77

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

Why? Explain like I don't know why it's a bad idea because I don't.


I think this is gonna be healthcare reform II - Electric Boogaloo.

They are against it but can't tell you why.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#16 Knoell

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:33 PM

I think this is gonna be healthcare reform II - Electric Boogaloo.

They are against it but can't tell you why.


You not accepting what is wrong with this idea does not mean noone can tell you why.

You really think this wouldn't have adverse effects?

#17 Msut77

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

Is there a downside to denying nuclear launch codes to elementary school children?

Is there a downside to defusing any hostage situation?
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#18 Knoell

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

Is there a downside to denying nuclear launch codes to elementary school children?


I don't get the reference in this one.




Is there a downside to defusing any hostage situation?


If you take a blind shot at the hostage taker and maybe take him out. Sure you solved the problem, but noone will trust you to negotiate again. And you could very well hit a hostage instead.

#19 thrustbucket

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:21 AM

It's making money out of thin air to pay for debt incurred from promising to make money out of thin air.

Think about that for a bit next time you toke one.

#20 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:05 AM

It's making money out of thin air to pay for debt incurred from promising to make money out of thin air.

Think about that for a bit next time you toke one.


Just came in to 'splain but seems you summarized it quite well. It is absurd to make a coin and give it such a value just because they can. Government messes with the natural order and free market which resulted in the financial mess we are in.

#21 Clak

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:43 AM

You know, there is absolutely nothing wrong with printing money, the key is to print the right amount. It doesn't mean automatic inflation either, despite what the crackpots on the bullion forums may tell you. I swear those folks are going to be really disappointed when gold and silver return to a reasonable price.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

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#22 Dr Mario Kart

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:13 AM

Actually in this particular case, the inflation triggered would be zero. They could mint a $100 Trillion coin and deposit it at the Fed, the resulting inflation would be zero. If the government tries to spend it, that is to say, purchasing $10 trillion worth of goods or services, then would you have inflation. Until its spent, its something of an accounting gimmick. Its less a coin than a token. A token that authorizes the government to pay the debts it has already accumulated with money it already has. We dont have a problem servicing our debt. We've just created a fictional, legal barrier to doing so for no good reason.

#23 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:46 AM

You know, there is absolutely nothing wrong with printing money, the key is to print the right amount. It doesn't mean automatic inflation either, despite what the crackpots on the bullion forums may tell you. I swear those folks are going to be really disappointed when gold and silver return to a reasonable price.

Yeah, except the right amount is no more. FED printed too much money which were given to the banks to loan out to people. This resulted in artificial low interest rates that led to the housing crisis. The government's solution? Print more money! Billions were again given to the banks to cover bonuses and private airplanes. Before calling those people crackpots I suggest you do more research. Gold and silver have increased in value exponentially over the last few decades. I myself have invested, not to profit but keep my money safe and secure. Remember Germany when they printed too much after the war?

#24 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

FED printed too much money which were given to the banks to loan out to people. This resulted in artificial low interest rates that led to the housing crisis.


Where in the world did you get this whackadoo theory? CDOs, shameful (corrupt) ratings agencies, an addiction to ARMs for banks far beyond the purview of the Community Reinvestment Act - that led to the bubble and its explosion.

The government's solution? Print more money! Billions were again given to the banks to cover bonuses and private airplanes. Before calling those people crackpots I suggest you do more research.


Let me guess; we're fifteen borrowed dollars away from HYPERINFLATION AND OMG THE CRASHING DOLLAR AND OMG MILK IS SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A GALLON AND OMG THE UNITED STATES IS THE NEW WEIMAR REPUBLIC.

Right? Is that what you think? Based on what empirical standards are we going down the same path as Germany? Can you find a single economist who thinks we're the next Germany?

(p.s., Good luck.)

Gold and silver have increased in value exponentially over the last few decades. I myself have invested, not to profit but keep my money safe and secure. Remember Germany when they printed too much after the war?


Copper has increased in value as well, but that's due to its use as a metal more than it is fears of a crashing currency. Correlation is not causation - and in any event, self-fulfilling prophecies and all that would indicate that it only takes a small pool of crackpots to drive up the price of a commodity like precious metals. This isn't "smart people getting out of the dollar while the getting is good," this is "crazed loons have become the tail wagging the dog."
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#25 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

Where in the world did you get this whackadoo theory? CDOs, shameful (corrupt) ratings agencies, an addiction to ARMs for banks far beyond the purview of the Community Reinvestment Act - that led to the bubble and its explosion.



Let me guess; we're fifteen borrowed dollars away from HYPERINFLATION AND OMG THE CRASHING DOLLAR AND OMG MILK IS SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A GALLON AND OMG THE UNITED STATES IS THE NEW WEIMAR REPUBLIC.

Right? Is that what you think? Based on what empirical standards are we going down the same path as Germany? Can you find a single economist who thinks we're the next Germany?

(p.s., Good luck.)



Copper has increased in value as well, but that's due to its use as a metal more than it is fears of a crashing currency. Correlation is not causation - and in any event, self-fulfilling prophecies and all that would indicate that it only takes a small pool of crackpots to drive up the price of a commodity like precious metals. This isn't "smart people getting out of the dollar while the getting is good," this is "crazed loons have become the tail wagging the dog."


1. Ron Paul predicted this early in 2000s.
http://www.lewrockwe...ul/paul376.html
This could also be applied to student loans and price of education. Price of education has increased because government became involved by giving out loans and grants. Quick google search led me to this:
http://www.thepoliti...iews/Education/

2. 15 dollars from hyperinflation? So do you believe we are having an inflation right now? If so, why?

3. Price of copper is driven by free market. Here is a great 40 minute video I hope you watch:

Demand for gold rises as central banks diversify reserve holdings
http://usa.chinadail...nt_16107893.htm
Germany’s Bundesbank Repatriating Gold from the New York Federal Reserve
http://www.globalres...reserve/5319048
Another short video on gold by Peter Schiff:


Now let me ask you a few questions:
1. Do you believe in government involvement in economy? If so, how much involvement?
2. By printing so much money, does the dollar value decrease? Does the price of goods go up because of that?
3. Why did the price of gold and silver has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?

#26 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul are economists? Derrrrrrrp. Fuck almighty.

Now let me ask you a few questions:
1. Do you believe in government involvement in economy? If so, how much involvement?
2. By printing so much money, does the dollar value decrease? Does the price of goods go up because of that?
3. Why did the price of gold and silver has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?


1. Stupid question, ridiculous premise. Let me answer it this way - anyone who believes that a market can be truly independent of government involvement either (a) doesn't understand the first fucking thing about economics or (b) is an anarchist. If you use the US dollar in your transaction and typically refrain from bartering, there is a remarkable likelihood that you are an (a) and not (b).
2. Check the CPI. Printing money doesn't effect prices. You are clearly in category (a) above.
3. "Why did the price has increased?" Sweet grammar, guy. Are you a trust fund Archbishop Moeller grad? At any rate, I'm not sure why it has done up. Demand? Beats me, I don't invest in it.

Let me ask you: "Why did the price of AAPL has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?" Since you are fishing for a desired result in the final question, should we glean that any commodity/security whose price has increased since 1998 is a potential candidate for replacing the dollar as the currency of choice in the modern world? Should we then think that people are buying AAPL stock certificates expecting them to replace the dollar? No? Why would we expect that gold is different? Because its price as a commodity went up? Talk about a conclusion in search of evidence. Jesus, kid. Back to the drawing board with you.
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#27 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul are economists? Derrrrrrrp. Fuck almighty.



1. Stupid question, ridiculous premise. Let me answer it this way - anyone who believes that a market can be truly independent of government involvement either (a) doesn't understand the first fucking thing about economics or (b) is an anarchist. If you use the US dollar in your transaction and typically refrain from bartering, there is a remarkable likelihood that you are an (a) and not (b).
2. Check the CPI. Printing money doesn't effect prices. You are clearly in category (a) above.
3. "Why did the price has increased?" Sweet grammar, guy. Are you a trust fund Archbishop Moeller grad? At any rate, I'm not sure why it has done up. Demand? Beats me, I don't invest in it.

Let me ask you: "Why did the price of AAPL has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?" Since you are fishing for a desired result in the final question, should we glean that any commodity/security whose price has increased since 1998 is a potential candidate for replacing the dollar as the currency of choice in the modern world? Should we then think that people are buying AAPL stock certificates expecting them to replace the dollar? No? Why would we expect that gold is different? Because its price as a commodity went up? Talk about a conclusion in search of evidence. Jesus, kid. Back to the drawing board with you.

1. I studied Economics for several years in California being taught by different kinds of professors. Just because my view is different it does not mean that I am an anarchist or stupid. You use the same tactics by people who do not have the facts by calling me stupid, making fun of one's opinion and etc. This tactic is also used by Pierce Morgan against anyone who has a different opinion.
USSR had strong government influence on the market and what happened? They are gone!
Want another example? How about Sweden who was praised by a very famous economist Paul Krugman. http://mises.org/daily/2259
2. CPI? Ok check the link below
http://seekingalpha....ng-with-the-cpi
3. AAPL increased due to demand, for many people it was or is a solid substitute for paper money. Please enough with name calling and use more facts, none of your responses are back up by anything.

Also I am still waiting for my dollar.

#28 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

It's funny you bring up California.

http://news.yahoo.co...-141509838.html

free market durrrrrrrrr.
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#29 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

It's funny you bring up California.

http://news.yahoo.co...-141509838.html

free market durrrrrrrrr.


The tax on the rich would also result in huge amount of revenue but that would be a short term solution. In the long term, more jobs will be cut and prices will go up.

Now I can play this game as well:
http://beforeitsnews...-2-2558344.html
More insightful information.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100016697
http://www.thenewame...aving-for-texas

#30 mykevermin

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:00 PM

Now I can play this game as well:


That's the *only* thing you've actually done on this site thus far, to be honest. Ape tired Libertarian talking points and blogs.

Now that I've seen what kind of internet sources you use as "support," perhaps you should stick to the rhetoric after all.
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