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The Star Trek III (Back from the Dead) Thread


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#1231 dothog

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:47 PM

I don't know that Geordi's sex life would've been that interesting. Geordi was okay as TNG goes, but even as ST in general goes, he's not my favorite engineer, to be honest.

Come to think of it, I don't know who my favorite ST engineer would be. O'Brien, maybe? Then Barclay -- he'd be #1 if not just a bit player, Barclay was such a full, fun character. But O'Brien did good work across a lot of episodes. Geordi next, then Scotty. I know it's probably considered ST heresy to place Scotty this far down the list, but it's hard for me to get past the accent (and the mustache).

Then I'm scraping bottom. Trip from ENT, I guess, is next. Although there's another worthless accent. (Whereas Scotty's was just regrettable, why did they have that guy put an accent on Trip? What did it add? I think he's going for an ozark holler type voice, but it's just a bland "Southern" potpourri.) Trip wasn't bad otherwise. Don't ask me how, but he bagged T'Pol. So he's got that going for him.

I forget Voyager's engineer, was it Blanna? If so, she's dead last. Blanna.
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#1232 Javery

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:55 PM

B'Elanna was the hottest one by far.

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#1233 dohdough

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:00 PM

:rofl: So Geordi had a jheri curl?

Did they have someone else besides Burton? That guy doesn't look like him at all.

#1234 Clak

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:02 PM

He may have just been someone they dressed up to test the costume. Or maybe someone else who auditioned, don't know.

Scotty is by far the best engineer in ST history.
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#1235 dothog

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:04 PM

B'Elanna was the hottest one by far.


Careful. You'd get whatever delta quadrant VDs Tom Paris is carrying around. No thank you. I'll Fuck Scotty instead. "dothog, aye cannae take any mooore!" "Well, hold on to your bagpipes, montgomery, because this warp core's about to breach."

Yeah, TOS slashfic. I just wrote it.
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#1236 TheCochese

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:34 PM

Careful. You'd get whatever delta quadrant VDs Tom Paris is carrying around. No thank you. I'll Fuck Scotty instead. "dothog, aye cannae take any mooore!" "Well, hold on to your bagpipes, montgomery, because this warp core's about to breach."

Yeah, TOS slashfic. I just wrote it.


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#1237 Friend of Sonic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:21 AM

I really like the Geordi character-- very compassionate, but a geek that got upset by geeky stuff.

I wonder how a romance would have went. Unfortunately, probably not that interesting?

Whose nipples are getting hard at TNG Blu Ray? I know mine are, fo sho.
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#1238 dothog

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:34 PM

I really like the Geordi character-- very compassionate, but a geek that got upset by geeky stuff.

I wonder how a romance would have went. Unfortunately, probably not that interesting?

Yeah, I liked Geordi, too. The few romances he did have weren't really that great, which was part of Burton's point. The holo-romance was kind of a strange story to tell, because I don't know how it changed Geordi beyond his instituting a new "No gettin it on with living persons" holodeck rule. It's a good rule, though. A safe one, at least.
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#1239 Clak

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:40 PM

That would probably be the main use of holodecks if they did exist. It'd kinda be like that one episode of Futurama, people would be downloading profiles of celebrities and pornstars.
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#1240 ITDEFX

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:42 PM

Whose nipples are getting hard at TNG Blu Ray? I know mine are, fo sho.

:???:

FoS.......ummmmm.................

#1241 blandstalker

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:43 PM

I like Geordi -- saying you don't like Geordi is kind of like saying you hate puppies -- but he's not a very developed character. Once you take away his main defining characteristic (his VISOR) he's got engineering and friendliness. Geordi would be a great person to hang out with, but he's like really pretty wallpaper -- nice, but essentially background.

I don't think more romances would have solved anything because his character wasn't defined enough to make them interesting. The first, with the fictional Leah Brahms, was the best and probably one whose relevance will grow with time. But the sequel where he met the real woman is one of the most excruciatingly bad episodes and the one where he dated a monster was so boring that having his girlfriend be a BEM was the only thing that saved the episode from going completely comatose.

I'm going to disagree and say that B'Elanna was much more interesting, if only because she wasn't totally defined by her job. She actually had one of Voyager's best episodes -- when she decided to tinker with her daughter's DNA in Lineage -- because it worked for her character and no one else could have stood in.

When you think of "good Geordi episodes" they tend to be of two types. There's the kind that uses him as a plot device, like The Mind's Eye or The Enemy. They only barely move past the VISOR to an actual character. Then there are the ones which have him in it, but they really could have starred anyone, like The Next Phase. When Geordi isn't a human tricorder, he's off spouting technobabble or being nice but nondescript.

Of course, B'Elanna sucks too, for two major reasons. Whoever decided to make her Klingon on a show set in the Delta Quadrant where there are no Klingons really didn't think things through. They kept coming up with ridiculously implausible ways to shoehorn in Klingons, and none of it worked as well as Worf's interactions with his culture.

The second was that Voyager's feminism turned retrograde, making them more like women out of Mad Men. Even though they started off as strong women, they all became defined by their gender in appalling ways. Janeway became a sexless mommy, then granny figure. B'Elanna practically disappeared once she became Tom's girlfriend, then his babymama. She lost everything that made her who she was in favor of becoming Lt. Girlfriend. Then there's Barbie of Borg, but that's a whole 'nother thing.

Voyager's writing didn't help. Some of the writers had a good handle on B'Elanna, but others were pretty clueless, making her more "Me Klingon. You don't want to make me ANGRY. B'Elanna SMASH!"

Still, it's more than Geordi got. It's one of the things I find most irritating about Trek and why I think Voyager and then Enterprise sunk. They forgot that characters are important and they are more than their jobs or one trait that usually ends up fixed in the first season. Geordi's defining trait -- being blind -- was nerfed before the series began. He's blind, but not really. There were minor consequences, but nothing that went anywhere. What do you do with that? TNG could never really figure it out.

If the characters don't grow and change, they leave the series little more than seven (or however many) years older, going through the same motions, doing nothing of any real consequence. Only the technobabble changes.
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#1242 blandstalker

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:08 PM

I wrote some of this earlier, but we're moving soon and I keep getting interrupted ;)

My gut feeling is that, while they were eager to put a "face" on the swedes, they were even more excited about sexing up Data. It's something the TV broadcast wanted, they love the goddamn emo chip, and to take it a step further on film had to be very tempting. That emphasized the perceived need for the Queen even more -- you kill two subplot birds with one character stone.


I don't know. I don't consider myself a prude, but android love was not something I really wanted to see. I thought sexing up the queen worked because it came off as somewhat creepy. The idea of Data falling for it, though, never seemed plausible. It's like those femme fatale villains who think they can corrupt Superman or Batman with their sexy wiles. It's just not in their character to betray their friends or morals for hanky panky.

[It actually would be a great story to have Data genuinely tempted by this, i.e. in a situation when crew members' lives would not be at stake. While we know he's "fully functional", it would be something else more like Odo's Great Link for him to do the mambo with other machines. The only problems with this is it's not something that's really suited to a movie, and Trek has always been so juvenile about sex that no good would come of it. So to speak.]

I can see how people cut down First Contact (a friend sent me a link of the Phantom Menace guy going after First Contact), and I don't disagree with a lot of it. But to me it's the only TNG movie that feels true to broadcast. Everything else with the TNG cast feels like a shitty generic action movie with TNG plastering.


Good points. I also think this is why Wrath of Khan is far and away the best of the TOS movies. Everyone has something meaningful to do. Everyone's component has some sort of emotional resonance, and it's pretty amazing they were able to do that for guest stars, too.

It also shows that the writers truly understand the characters and give them situations where they can either be themselves or be challenged by something and not have it seem fake. Lursa and B'Etor hacking Geordi's visor in Generations feels like such a cheat, makes the crew look stupid, and shows only the most facile understanding of the character as a plot device (see? even in the movies, Geordi gets shafted).

There were lots of little moments in First Contact that showed depth of understanding that was absent in the other movies. When Picard shoots the crewmember being Borgified, I was upset. At first I thought it was out of character, but then it really speaks to unresolved issues for Picard, which is pretty smart. I can still quibble with the scene a little -- it seems unfair for Picard to deny him any hope of a rescue like Picard got -- but respect what it was trying to do. In any case, a scene where you can have a genuine exploration about its meaning and ramifications is pretty powerful. Contrast that to Kirk wanting to spend his retirement riding horses, living in a cabin in the woods and having to be talked out of it -- I'm sorry, I can't buy that for a second. I suppose you can have a debate about that, but to me that one is all about laziness and lack of imagination.

I don't recall if I've seen the Mr. Plinkett review of First Contact. I consider Nemesis and Generations such cinematic abortions that sure, declare open season on them. There's so much wrong with just about everything that shining a light on all of it is instructive as to how much went wrong and why the resulting movie is so bad.

But you can do that on just about any movie. There are going to be continuity errors, mistakes, and bad ideas in even the best movies. I mean, take Star Trek II. That prefix code was awfully convenient as are the magic mind control bugs that spare regular cast members. And, depending on how charitable/jaded you are, Peter Preston can either be a good idea or a walking bullseye with a countdown to destruction in neon over his head. I also couldn't have been older than 12 when I saw the movie the first time, and even then I saw through Spock's "code"; Khan is supposed to be a genius.

And yet...most of those things are there to keep the story going, to keep things going at a decent pace, and to communicate things in a way that makes sense to an audience. Does anyone really think they have a special light up display just for prefix codes like they showed? No, that would be silly. But it's there so the audience can follow along. I think there's a big difference between giving an audience cues and dumbing down everything so that it only makes sense if your brain is turned off.

I think First Contact actively tried to make a better movie, to highlight moments with the characters, and to make a movie that genuinely works on more than one level. You could say Nemesis tried to do that too, but it was so inept that it failed on just about every level. While execution matters, intention matters too. It's one of the reasons I find the dune buggy and Data crap in Nemesis so galling -- when making a good movie is no longer the primary intention behind what's going into the movie, how can anyone be surprised when it turns out to be crap. Or Insurrection -- the primary goal seemed to be to make a movie, any movie, to keep the license alive.

isn't there a story about how the borg were to be used? I recall reading somewhere that the "Great War" concept used in DS9 was originally intended to play out in TNG with the borg. I'm probably off, I just need to google this for myself.


I don't recall hearing that one.

What I do know is that the Borg were supposed to be introduced earlier, what with all those mysterious outposts and colonies being scooped off their planets way back at the end of the first season. Supposedly the writers' strike interfered with that.

I don't read many ST novels, but Peter David's Vendetta goes a bit into this, actually showing it done to a planet. (Anything Peter David is usually worth a read. I understand he even had a throwaway bit in another book on why the Borg never showed up to DS9.)

The creator of the Borg -- Maurice Hurley -- was also the guy who got Beverley dumped. By the third season he was gone and she was back. Cast and creative changes can have huge impacts -- who knows what Hurley had planned and how that was changed.

And I just read (while looking up some stuff on Generations) that the saucer crashing was originally intended as a cliffhanger ending to All Good Things, had TNG gone for another season. There's that intention thing again -- the destruction of the Enterprise in Generations always seemed so out of place to me. It was more a Braga moment of "Let's blow some stuff up!" as opposed to having it make any sort of thematic sense. And it totally was.

Ideas change all the time, and lots of ideas that got leaked to fans were only sort of accurate. When I first heard about the Cardassians, they were supposed to be the next Big Thing on TNG, and while they did make an impact, they were much more of a force in DS9 and they didn't really come into their own until the whole TNG-Maquis-DS9 linkage. (Which, in retrospect, I don't give enough credit to. Even though that didn't really deliver on its possibilities, it was really something to coordinate over three different shows and something which had a massive effect on DS9.)

At the time, though, the scuttlebutt was that the Cardassians were the new Klingons or whatever and, well, that was a bit more hype than reality, until DS9 came along. And part of this is due to limited viewpoints of the people involved. Unless you're talking to the higher-ups, nobody really knows how it can change from one episode to the next or what's ultimately going to happen. And it's here where intention doesn't matter enough. The Ferengi were also supposed to be the new Klingons, and when they landed like a lead balloon, the series moved on to other things. You can come up with an idea and hope it takes wings and flies, but not all of them do.

And small things can have huge impacts. I have to be reminded that "Major Kira" was originally intended to be "Major Ro" because the very idea now seems so incongruous. Can you imagine how different DS9 would have been with that one change?
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#1243 dothog

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:35 PM

Well, my opinion of blanna has nothing to do with the actor behind her, it's the character, the writing, her presence onboard the Voyager to begin with. I don't know what more to say than blanna didn't work for me, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. An interesting story or two doesn't vindicate that character.

As for Geordi being one-note, you can't really argue otherwise. As development goes, JLP got the goods; Worf and Data didn't do so bad, either. It's hard to say with the rest. I feel like Riker was handed more material than the remaining crew, but for a number of reasons (incl. Frakes), he really didn't do much with it.

I guess I'm pointing this out, in part, in response to Levar Burton. If his assertion is that Geordi was singled out in being underdeveloped, he need look no further than the material handed to Bev or Troi. It didn't have to be romance; as you note, there were opportunities lost aplenty on Geordi's visor and how that changed his POV. I mean, for being half-Betazoid, Troi's telepathy effectively gave her a nightmare and the ability to state the obvious.
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#1244 Clak

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:04 PM

Riker was fairly one note as well. His character was basically just the good looking, reckless first officer, basically the TNG equivalent of Kirk. They tried a few times, like that episode where his father shows up, but it seemed forced.
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#1245 Javery

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

I liked B-Elanna but the writers really dropped the ball. She was 1/2 Klingon. She was a Marquis forced to follow Federation rules (not to mention a strong-willed woman being forced to follow another strong-willed woman in Janeway - they should have hated each other). She had a temper (probably because she was 1/2 Klingon and they are MAD GRRRRR!!). She had a sort of complicated relationship with Tom Paris (someone she never would have gotten married to if not for being lost in the Delta quadrant). There was a lot to work with there but they blew it.

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#1246 dohdough

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:27 PM

I liked B-Elanna but the writers really dropped the ball. She was 1/2 Klingon. She was a Marquis forced to follow Federation rules (not to mention a strong-willed woman being forced to follow another strong-willed woman in Janeway - they should have hated each other). She had a temper (probably because she was 1/2 Klingon and they are MAD GRRRRR!!). She had a sort of complicated relationship with Tom Paris (someone she never would have gotten married to if not for being lost in the Delta quadrant). There was a lot to work with there but they blew it.

She should've hooked up with Harry instead. Two birds with one stone.

#1247 dothog

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:29 PM

I don't know, blanna shouldn't have been there in the first place. As bland and you point out, she had two modes on the show: the Klingon MAD GRRRR! and the mother.

Voyager is such a mess. They ruined such an interesting premise by being amazing chicken shits. I will never watch Voyager ever, ever again -- I'm happy to forget everything about that show.
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#1248 ITDEFX

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:27 PM

Although I am excited about the BR release of TNG Season 1...what the Fuck I am going to do with the first run DVD releases of the series box sets?

can't sell them because they aren't worth shit.

#1249 Friend of Sonic

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:43 AM

All of this talk about character development being lacking just reminds me on why DS9 was terrific. Seriously, all of the main characters were so well defined, and truly made the DS9 a universe a level above the other (spinoff?) universes.DFX

Man, I would shit myself if they treated DS9 to a HD overhaul. Unfortunately, that's still years away with the pace they've set themselves for TNG.

ITDEFX, it looks like it's worth 20.00 on Amazon. I'm sure you can craigslist for 15.00? That would take some heartburn away from the Blu price? I'm actually thinking about selling all of my DVD sets now while the other seasons have a little more value.

Guys, anyone use DeepDiscount lately? They have a preorder price of 72.00, free shipping. Last consensus I've heard is they have turned to shit... but, 70 bucks is a great price for this.

#1250 ITDEFX

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:48 AM

Ok, I take that back...they started back in 2005!
http://io9.com/59254...tion-on-blu ray

#1251 TheCochese

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:51 AM

By 2050, they'll be done with DS9.

#1252 ITDEFX

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:10 AM

ITDEFX, it looks like it's worth 20.00 on Amazon. I'm sure you can craigslist for 15.00? That would take some heartburn away from the Blu price? I'm actually thinking about selling all of my DVD sets now while the other seasons have a little more value.


I tried dumping it for like 25 a pop a few years ago on CL but no biters.
The price of the DVD will tank even more once the BR's come out.


By 2050, they'll be done with DS9.


Honestly I doubt it.........depending on the sales figures from the season box sets, paramount may hire more people to step up the process...I think that's their goal..to make a very good impression with the first two seasons to tell Paramount/CBS..."hey look what we can do to a 25 year old show and how much money it can make you!"

I predict we will get DS9 HD on it's 25th anniversary..so 2018?

I hope they give us new runabout scenes...those ships were cool....
As for the space battles....I think they got it right when Season 4 hit as we got more boom and fire in space battles.

Going back to TNG.......I really wonder what kind of a challenge it's going to be recompositing the destruction scenes from Cause and Effect...

#1253 ITDEFX

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:39 PM

Wow I am really happy with Paramount/CBS right now.
http://tng.trekcore.....html#comiccon1

The support for DS9 is there and they are waiting for the fans to say YES. Honestly I think Paramount/CBS just needs to get started with DS9.

#1254 Clak

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

I'd actually buy an HD DS9 sooner than TNG. Even though I grew up watching TNG, I've enjoyed DS9 more in the last few years.
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#1255 ITDEFX

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:02 PM

Honestly I would love a picture in picture BTS with some of the VFX people in certain episodes where they explain how the effect was done .

That's the question they need to ask...."what special features you would like to see in the next season?"

#1256 Friend of Sonic

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 10:34 PM

Maybe I should start up a Facebook group and get people to like it. Shoot for a 100,000 likes or something.
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#1257 davo1224

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:17 AM

You know, I've only watched a season of DS9 so far and I already like it more than TNG in terms of actual good storytelling. I prefer the characters on TNG, but I already know so much about each character.

#1258 ITDEFX

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:58 AM

AICN somewhat reviews it

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/57022

I told my fiancee that I rather have TNG HD BR than the tablet I think she bought me for my wedding gift lol.

You know honestly they should replace those ridiculous first season phasers. With modern CG, they can do it!

That enterprise in the space cloud thing looks very cg'ish....reminds me of the Galaxy class Fuck up in Star Trek online.

#1259 Clak

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:34 PM

Yeah those early phasers looked horrible. What as that phaser called that Picard always seemed to use? It was a tiny little thing, I want to say that called it a personal phaser?
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#1260 ITDEFX

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 02:55 PM

I wonder if they also fixed the angle in which the beam came out of the phaser? Even back then if they were pointing it at one angle, the beam would fire at a lower angle. VFX goof I guess. But with modern tech, they can fix that easily....

Now that the show is in HD, I wonder how plastic looking all their props will look? I remembered seeing the the displays on the tricorders barely moved except for a graph or something and a few blinks...with that the doctor said "oops you have terminal cancer!" or data says "There is way too much radiation behind this door.....you stay here..."