Jump to content



Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

The Star Trek III (Back from the Dead) Thread


  • Please log in to reply
1879 replies to this topic

#1411 dafoomie

dafoomie

Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:48 AM

I just started DS9 and I'm about 6 or 7 episodes in. This is the first time I've watched since the original airings almost 20 years ago. It's funny, I know the characters very well but I don't remember anything that happened to them. Should be fun.

My god, it'll be 20 years in January. 2 weeks before Clinton was sworn in, 2 months before the original Pentium came out, 6 months before Windows NT, 11 months before Doom...

The 25th anniversary of the original Star Trek was around that time and I thought it was impossibly old.

#1412 TheCochese

TheCochese

    I make things out of wood

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:19 PM

It's amazing how well DS9 has held up. Just started Series 4 and I'm loving it. Always loved TNG more, but that might be changing.

#1413 ITDEFX

ITDEFX

    My foot itches..must be athlete's foot

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:42 PM

I would love to have a ds9 HD sampler disc for next year just to hold me over :p Yeah I know it's YEARS away from a release. It's too bad paramount can't put in more money into the restoration project to make a DS9 release sooner than later.

#1414 davo1224

davo1224

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:41 AM

I'm glad people are getting into watching it again. I can't wait for the discussion. I'm on the last episode tonight.

#1415 Tony Stark

Tony Stark

    Keep Calm Chive On

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:51 AM

anyone been to any conventions?

Check my YouTube channel for exotic cars: https://www.youtube.com/user/DKGarage


#1416 blandstalker

blandstalker

    I am Irrelevant Bitching

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 03:36 AM

anyone been to any conventions?


I went to a few back in the 90s. I enjoyed them.

I saw Patrick Stewart and, um, maybe William Shatner? -- it's a blur. It was either him or Leonard Nimoy and it was fine but obviously not terribly memorable. I think it was Nimoy. The thing is, with a big star like that you think it's going to be mind-bendingly amazingly everything, and they're only human. It's kind of like V for Vendetta -- before you see them they are their larger-than-life character, and after the small amount of time you get with them, it only reinforces all the things they could have been but weren't. If that makes any sense.

The guest star I enjoyed most was Marina Sirtis. In person, she's warm and funny, full of great stories, and fantastic with an audience. If only the writers had given Troi half her personality.

After awhile, I found the conventions feeling very similar -- same old stuff, lots of waiting around between interesting things, and never as much time with the guest speaker as you'd like.

The last one I went to was a combined Trek/B5 convention, and they had Bruce Boxleitner, Mira Furlan, and JMS. I waited forever for Bruce to sign my custom Sheridan figure, but he left before getting to where I was in line. JMS and Mira, however, stayed as long as there were still fans. They were awesome, and I still have JMS' signature.
Now playing: Some Game I Last Played Months Ago (DS), Ancient Game I Tried Once (PS3), Why Do I Never Update My Signature? (360), Backlog Assassins (iPad)

#1417 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 06:27 PM

I went to one convention-- Vegas 2011, which as far as I understand it, was Nimoy's second to last convention appearance. So that was neat. But I could see myself getting burnt out/bored if I went every year. I'm thinking every 3-5 years it'd be an exciting, fresh experience.
Though, I would love to see Avery Brooks speak, and to get an autograph just for the chance at any sort of conversation from him-- say what you will, think he's a phase coil short of a transporter, whatever, but I find him to be absolutely fascinating, indepth, and provocative. Plus I absolutely respect what he brought to the Sisko character, and his push for racial commentary on what is (unfortunately) a very real issue for the viewers of DS9.

#1418 Clak

Clak

    Made of star stuff.

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 06:40 PM

I went to one convention-- Vegas 2011, which as far as I understand it, was Nimoy's second to last convention appearance. So that was neat. But I could see myself getting burnt out/bored if I went every year. I'm thinking every 3-5 years it'd be an exciting, fresh experience.
Though, I would love to see Avery Brooks speak, and to get an autograph just for the chance at any sort of conversation from him-- say what you will, think he's a phase coil short of a transporter, whatever, but I find him to be absolutely fascinating, indepth, and provocative. Plus I absolutely respect what he brought to the Sisko character, and his push for racial commentary on what is (unfortunately) a very real issue for the viewers of DS9.

Far Beyond the Stars, best episode of DS9 IMO. I'd love to meet Avery Brooks, he actually teaches, I forget where. Taking a class with him would be awesome.

I went to a thing a few years ago, not long before James Doohan died, and got his autograph. Unfortunately I don't think he was feeling too well, the autograph is barely legible.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#1419 dothog

dothog

    n ur race snakin mai kart

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 08:42 PM

In spite of the message, Far Beyond the Stars ranks for me among other meta/holodeck episodes. I'll watch it because it's on, but it's not something I'll seek out.

I've always felt like if they had something to say but couldn't say it within the everyday world the ST characters inhabit, then they weren't trying hard enough. Especially if you're looking at commentary on race and bigotry, the ST universe is really good for that.

I don't need to be magically transported to 1950s New York, I'm watching ST to be in the Gamma Quadrant. I'm not singling DS9 out, this is a known issue for ST. I suppose I'm beating a dead horse by raising the point, it's just that Far Beyond is to me an example of actors who were capable and eager for material. I don't think the writing/production staff was able to keep up.
Posted ImagePosted Image

#1420 Clak

Clak

    Made of star stuff.

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:02 PM

It had meaning, there was a reason they had it take place in the past. You had a black writer, barely able to get work, much less with anyone knowing he was black. You had this character played by the black captain of the show, showing how far as a race they had come. That for Benny DS9 was just a fanciful idea, but Sisko was living it. Plus it was kind of a comment on the actors themselves. That folks like Brooks and Dorn are well respected actors today, when back then they probably couldn't have become what they are today.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#1421 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:19 PM

I think a real benefit to the "magical" transportation to the 50s was to see all of the cast play wildly different characters-- I mean who didn't at least think "Hey, that's neat" when they saw Armin Shimmerman without makeup, playing a human?
I mean, I guess I can't sell you benefits of Holodeck type episodes since some of them were tragically overdone or misused, but I would call Far Beyond the Stars a cut above the rest, at least for the simple fact it had something meaningful to say.

#1422 blandstalker

blandstalker

    I am Irrelevant Bitching

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:58 PM

I have a tough time with Far Beyond the Stars.

On the one hand, the episode itself is gorgeous, well-acted, interesting, and compelling. Seeing the actors do something different is great because it's not as hammy as Mirror Universe stuff, nor as meta or gimmicky as the holodeck. Also unlike some of those episodes, it's still rooted in the idea of science fiction rather than wish-fulfillment, outright fantasy, or technological masturbation. Like dothog, I don't watch DS9 to see period dramas, historical fiction, or intellectually lazy things like visiting the present day era. I want science fiction in my sci-fi, dammit. I feel, though, that by making Sisko and DS9 part of the story in the past and being a commentary on the notion of science fiction and dreams of the future that it's not just the same old holo-bullshit.

I just don't quite get a number of things about it. For the vast majority of DS9, Sisko's race is a non-issue. That makes it hard to understand why the Prophets would choose this particular story as a means to impart wisdom to him, or what exactly he was supposed to get out of it. Sisko was thinking of resigning because a friend died and the Prophets serve up an Afterschool Special? How does this experience help with that trauma? It is affirming of Sisko's struggles and position, but it's almost a non-sequitur. And how does inserting themselves into the story and talking about the "true path" fit?

(I don't even want to get into the minefield of what the Prophets would make of racism, or why they would go back to the 1940s. They have no concept of time, so is racism something they associate with Sisko in the present? That isn't supported by anything in the series. Is it important to their understanding of The Sisko? If not, why are they showing it to him?)

I feel the episode is on the edge of brilliance, especially with the idea that everything may just be a dream inside Benny's mind. The problem I have is that, like just about everything else with the Prophets, they decided to hint and suggest without any substance, explanation, or reason behind it.

You end the episode, wondering what exactly they mean by "he is the dreamer and the dream" and thinking this is probably Important or will be followed up on or something. But no. It's more Mystery of the Prophets™ that doesn't have to mean anything.

I guess that's more of my frustration that the Prophets were made up as they went along, with no intention of ever having some sort of payoff or, for that matter, coherence. It makes them feel even more like a plot device or that they were shoehorned into the script for this episode on the second or third draft.

Also, I think it needs to be said: for an episode whose major point was Racism is Bad, it's kind of sad that the women got stuck with little more than cliches and dismissal. You can't just say it was the time, either, since that's kind of the point of the episode.

This sounds harder on it than I meant to come across. I do quite enjoy the episode, and consider it in the same league (both in terms of quality and theme) as The Inner Light and The Visitor. It's not like The Inner Light was critical to later TNG episodes, nor did it have to be.

It's just that those episodes were obviously self-contained. This one hinted at being a bit more and, by failing to deliver on that promise, ended up feeling like a little bit less.
Now playing: Some Game I Last Played Months Ago (DS), Ancient Game I Tried Once (PS3), Why Do I Never Update My Signature? (360), Backlog Assassins (iPad)

#1423 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 21 September 2012 - 11:15 PM

Well, I would personally make the argument that the prophets (who assumedly know everything going on in this guy's head) picked race because it was something sensitive to Sisko (I point to the episode where Vic is having problems with the casino, and Sisko was uninterested because the time period was racist) I see the lesson to Sisko being that, even in the face of overwhelming odds, you can't give in. I honestly do see the parallel betwen that, and Sisko staying in to see the end of the Dominion War/his path as laid out by the prophets.

And I'm not sure of the criticism for the part of the episode dealing with the woman episode. I thought the whole point was that she had to use a man's name to get her work published, and that was bad. Were you wanting that character to revolt against the bullshit as well?

I dunno, I see this as a strength... to integrate this kind of story into a sci-fi show. I don't want it all the time, but once in a blue moon? Huge fan when it's pulled off. But I'm a fan of something becoming more than it is, though (I always root when Robin Williams or even Adam Sandler of all people pull off fantastic drama, etc)

#1424 davo1224

davo1224

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:46 AM

I think the prophets had more to do with introducing him into a different world while still existing in his own. They harped on not understanding a linear life. Race was just something that was relevant to the 1960's Sisko.

#1425 Clak

Clak

    Made of star stuff.

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:09 AM

I have a tough time with Far Beyond the Stars.

On the one hand, the episode itself is gorgeous, well-acted, interesting, and compelling. Seeing the actors do something different is great because it's not as hammy as Mirror Universe stuff, nor as meta or gimmicky as the holodeck. Also unlike some of those episodes, it's still rooted in the idea of science fiction rather than wish-fulfillment, outright fantasy, or technological masturbation. Like dothog, I don't watch DS9 to see period dramas, historical fiction, or intellectually lazy things like visiting the present day era. I want science fiction in my sci-fi, dammit. I feel, though, that by making Sisko and DS9 part of the story in the past and being a commentary on the notion of science fiction and dreams of the future that it's not just the same old holo-bullshit.

I just don't quite get a number of things about it. For the vast majority of DS9, Sisko's race is a non-issue. That makes it hard to understand why the Prophets would choose this particular story as a means to impart wisdom to him, or what exactly he was supposed to get out of it. Sisko was thinking of resigning because a friend died and the Prophets serve up an Afterschool Special? How does this experience help with that trauma? It is affirming of Sisko's struggles and position, but it's almost a non-sequitur. And how does inserting themselves into the story and talking about the "true path" fit?

(I don't even want to get into the minefield of what the Prophets would make of racism, or why they would go back to the 1940s. They have no concept of time, so is racism something they associate with Sisko in the present? That isn't supported by anything in the series. Is it important to their understanding of The Sisko? If not, why are they showing it to him?)

I feel the episode is on the edge of brilliance, especially with the idea that everything may just be a dream inside Benny's mind. The problem I have is that, like just about everything else with the Prophets, they decided to hint and suggest without any substance, explanation, or reason behind it.

You end the episode, wondering what exactly they mean by "he is the dreamer and the dream" and thinking this is probably Important or will be followed up on or something. But no. It's more Mystery of the Prophets™ that doesn't have to mean anything.

I guess that's more of my frustration that the Prophets were made up as they went along, with no intention of ever having some sort of payoff or, for that matter, coherence. It makes them feel even more like a plot device or that they were shoehorned into the script for this episode on the second or third draft.

Also, I think it needs to be said: for an episode whose major point was Racism is Bad, it's kind of sad that the women got stuck with little more than cliches and dismissal. You can't just say it was the time, either, since that's kind of the point of the episode.

This sounds harder on it than I meant to come across. I do quite enjoy the episode, and consider it in the same league (both in terms of quality and theme) as The Inner Light and The Visitor. It's not like The Inner Light was critical to later TNG episodes, nor did it have to be.

It's just that those episodes were obviously self-contained. This one hinted at being a bit more and, by failing to deliver on that promise, ended up feeling like a little bit less.


The dreamer IMO means Benny, dreaming of a better future. Sisko is the dream, he's what Benny hopes for. I guess they were saying that Benny and Sisko were one and the same. They were both dreaming of a better future, just for different reasons.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#1426 davo1224

davo1224

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:24 PM

Can we all agree that Kira as the intendent, was a straight ho?

#1427 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:06 AM

Can we all agree that Kira as the intendent, was a straight ho?

Yes we can, I would hit that shit so hard then I would toss some gold pressed latinum to Seven and tell her to suck my dick
You hurt the right person and you're wrong for life.

#1428 6er

6er

    XBOX, GO HOME

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:58 PM

The dreamer IMO means Benny, dreaming of a better future. Sisko is the dream, he's what Benny hopes for. I guess they were saying that Benny and Sisko were one and the same. They were both dreaming of a better future, just for different reasons.


It isn't actually that simple. In one interview....maybe the one on the "Captain's Log" box set, You will find this is actually a race based episode, at the very least to him, and he played the role that way. Avery Brooks is very deeply emotional when it comes to the history of Blacks in America, and this episode absolutely is out of the norm for Trek.....why?

First, get in the head of someone living in this mythical show, and its time and circumstances.

It's deep in the 23rd Century, and in "Trek Universe", race hasn't been any kind of issue for Black humans for 400 years.

Look at TOS. Uhura is on the bridge. Her race NEVER comes up in the story of the show. WHY?

BECAUSE EVERYONE IS PAST IT! IT DOESNT MAKE A FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE! EVERYONE IS PERFECTLY EQUAL!! People no longer dwell on the dark past. They remember it to prevent it from happening again, but it doesn't haunt their dreams. On several occasions in DS9, Sisko talks about how hard they worked, "our people's history" in reference to slavery and civil rights movement. IF we were talking about a VERY early Star Trek where the utopia is starting, after The Vulcans landed, you might have an episode.

The entire premise of Star Trek as a show is to show what could theoritically be possible(but I doubt humans will EVER achieve, we like conflict too much), if ever one puts aside all their differences and works together. Brooks, is a great actor(and very odd in real life like all the best ones), but should have left Trek to be Trek.
PS3, 360, Wii, DS,3DS, Vita
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#1429 Clak

Clak

    Made of star stuff.

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

It isn't actually that simple. In one interview....maybe the one on the "Captain's Log" box set, You will find this is actually a race based episode, at the very least to him, and he played the role that way. Avery Brooks is very deeply emotional when it comes to the history of Blacks in America, and this episode absolutely is out of the norm for Trek.....why?

First, get in the head of someone living in this mythical show, and its time and circumstances.

It's deep in the 23rd Century, and in "Trek Universe", race hasn't been any kind of issue for Black humans for 400 years.

Look at TOS. Uhura is on the bridge. Her race NEVER comes up in the story of the show. WHY?

BECAUSE EVERYONE IS PAST IT! IT DOESNT MAKE A FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE TO ANYONE! EVERYONE IS PERFECTLY EQUAL!! People no longer dwell on the dark past. They remember it to prevent it from happening again, but it doesn't haunt their dreams. On several occasions in DS9, Sisko talks about how hard they worked, "our people's history" in reference to slavery and civil rights movement. IF we were talking about a VERY early Star Trek where the utopia is starting, after The Vulcans landed, you might have an episode.

The entire premise of Star Trek as a show is to show what could theoritically be possible(but I doubt humans will EVER achieve, we like conflict too much), if ever one puts aside all their differences and works together. Brooks, is a great actor(and very odd in real life like all the best ones), but should have left Trek to be Trek.

You're mad that race entered into Star Trek, seriously? How dare that 24th century black captain be aware of human history, how dare he I say!. That's just sad, man.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#1430 ITDEFX

ITDEFX

    My foot itches..must be athlete's foot

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:32 PM

That 3 FRAME (NOT seconds
clip was a slap in the face...what the Fuck!?!?!

#1431 dafoomie

dafoomie

Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:00 AM

TOS had plenty of racial episodes. The obvious one has the aliens who are painted half black and half white, and they hate the ones who have the colors on the opposite sides... I believe (not home, can't look this up) it was the result of network sensors but it made racism look as ridiculous and arbitrary as it is. The one where they beam up Lincoln and he calls Uhura a negress to her face, then apologizes. I'm sure there are others. The core of Star Trek was always about the issues of the day and giving us a better future without the barriers we have today, that's exactly what that DS9 episode does.

#1432 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:16 AM

It's deep in the 23rd Century, and in "Trek Universe", race hasn't been any kind of issue for Black humans for 400 years.

"Far Beyond the Stars" took place in 2374. You're saying race ceased being any sort of issue beyond 1974?
Posted Image
You hurt the right person and you're wrong for life.

#1433 davo1224

davo1224

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:13 AM

Sisko never brought up racial issues in a present-day context. The only time it's expressly brought up is when someone asks him to go see Vic Fontaine (which is the real stinker we should be talking about). In the Benny storyline, it was only when the prophets brought him back in time and to a different life. Having him be considered crazy and the oppression due to being black, was part of the struggle with the evil spirits.

#1434 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:44 AM

Sisko never brought up racial issues in a present-day context. The only time it's expressly brought up is when someone asks him to go see Vic Fontaine (which is the real stinker we should be talking about).

And I would argue that after his experience in Benny's shoes, he has become more sensitive to the historic racial issues. He never said as such in the episode, but that was always my take on it.
You hurt the right person and you're wrong for life.

#1435 davo1224

davo1224

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:07 AM

Just to clarify, I meant that Vic Fontaine was a stinker, not Sisko's apprehension of a black person in the 1960's.

#1436 ITDEFX

ITDEFX

    My foot itches..must be athlete's foot

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

Well this is no surprise.......
http://ent.trekcore....tblurumors.html

#1437 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:20 PM

I'm glad for that, more Trek on Blu is a good thing, and I guess it in hopes that it supports DS9 being remastered (though Enterprise on Blu is pretty far removed from the remastering process)
You hurt the right person and you're wrong for life.

#1438 Tony Stark

Tony Stark

    Keep Calm Chive On

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:32 PM

I'm glad for that, more Trek on Blu is a good thing, and I guess it in hopes that it supports DS9 being remastered (though Enterprise on Blu is pretty far removed from the remastering process)


Yeah, based on that article, making Enterprise on Blu-Ray is as simple as printing discs (minus the adding new content)

Check my YouTube channel for exotic cars: https://www.youtube.com/user/DKGarage


#1439 ITDEFX

ITDEFX

    My foot itches..must be athlete's foot

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:07 AM

I liked how they said that if they re did the effects to 1080p, it would look too perfect compared to upresing from 720p. Honestly it would have been nice for them to release enterprise on BR last year for the tenth anniversary of the show, then TNG for 25th this year, then DS9 for next year for the tenth and finally Voyager in 2015 for the tenth.

#1440 Friend of Sonic

Friend of Sonic

    Toneman.org coming soon..

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:43 PM

So Trekcore had an interview, and if I understand right, the extended cut of The Measure of a Man is going to be in proper HD with the original film negatives. I was under the impression they were going to splice in the VHS footage in with the remastered episode, but it sounds like they got it all 100% composited from the negatives. Fucking amazing.

http://tng.trekcore....damsgrant2.html
You hurt the right person and you're wrong for life.