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The Star Trek III (Back from the Dead) Thread


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#1561 blandstalker

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:06 AM

What's wrong with Take me Out to the Holosuite? It was a sillly, funny episode. I enjoyed it.


I hate it.

I reserve this kind of hate for episodes that are worse than awful; there's something really wrong at the core of them.

This is the episode that introduced Vulcan bashing, which became a thing for the rest of televised Star Trek. It's not enough that Vulcans are different. Oh no. They also have to be insufferable, overbearing, and nakedly emotional to the point that they can't even pretend that they're not. It's turning the idea of Vulcans on its head and replacing it with something ugly and one-dimensional.

The original series always played with the idea of Vulcans -- were they really unemotional, or were they just pretending or stifling their emotions? This DS9 episode simply makes them assholes, and that's the precedent that set the tone for Voyager and Enterprise.

That's bad enough. Then we have Sisko gleefully trying to "get" them. For as progressive as "Far Beyond The Stars" is, here we have an example of casual racism that I find appalling, doubly so coming from Sisko. It is not just the Vulcan character is a jerk, but Vulcans are jerks, and it's the job of every red-blooded Starfleet officer to show them up with baseball.

Then we get an episode which gives the term "afterschool special" (look it up) a bad name. It's treacly and simplistic and stupid.

The episode's big revelation is that it should just be a game and friends are, like, more important than winning the tournament that shows you are the superior race.

That's dumb and it's reductive. Sometimes competitions are important. Otherwise, why practice, why work hard, why field a team in the first place? Of course, winning isn't everything. But you don't just take everyone's time and effort and say they don't matter by letting complete imbeciles play. The idea that just because someone wants to play a game because it looks fun means that you should just give up on all your training and hard work is insulting and brain dead. Let's let anyone, regardless of ability level, play on our Olympic teams because that would be fair and anything else would get in the way of everyone's fun.

The really obvious answer is that you can play a frickin' game of holodeck baseball whenever you want. It's a holodeck. Rom doesn't have to come in and stink up the field on a tournament when everyone can just schedule another game against a computerized team for him anytime. It's a false dilemma that's there only to sell the vapid, heartwarming message that being nice to the village idiot is more important than showing up a bunch of arrogant pricks.

So, basically, I see the entire episode as a stupid, simplistic waste of everyone's time. The only person I think that acts with half a brain cell is Rom because he realizes what's going on and actually understands that him playing on the team is not necessary and is bringing the rest of the team down. He is the only one with more than a stimulus-response in the entire episode. Then, the episode takes great pains to show how wrong that is, and how we should let everyone play, no matter their ability level, no matter the circumstance, because for some reason that's the right thing to do.

It's bullshit. This is not the kind of message I expect from DS9. It's what I expect from a Lifetime movie, or something on the Disney channel. But it's not even consistent. Here we have this sanitized, brain-dead happy happy message that takes place in the same episode as the ugliest racism I think I've seen on Trek. It's easy to dismiss because Vulcans aren't real. But substitute any real-life ethnicity into the dialogue and you would get something that would make just about any thinking person uncomfortable. It goes beyond the Vulcan character being a jerk. It's sending the message that Vulcans are jerks and it's okay to hate them for being jerks, and that we should do stuff to make them feel bad and show we're better than them.

Finally, there's the little things. There's the fact that this episode comes in the middle of the last season, in the middle of a war. They really have nothing better to do? When I think of what an extra hour could accomplish, I really get annoyed. Fate of Cardassia? Resolution for Garak? Some denoument for Kira? Nah, let's play holodeck baseball.

And, to be really petty, Kira's uniform annoys the Fuck out of me. On her jersey, it says "Nerys". That's the equivalent of her 'first' name in Western terms. Her jersey should say "Kira" because she is Major Kira.

Rather than dismiss that as a nerdy nitpick, I hold it up as an example that no one gave a Fuck during this episode. Either no one noticed (because they were all brain dead) or someone noticed and they decided not to fix it. I'm not sure which is worse.
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#1562 Clak

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

Because conflict between vulcans and humans didn't exist before DS9. Did you even watch the original series?
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#1563 lordwow

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:09 PM

An interesting theory at Hitfix that Cumberbatch is actually playing
Spoiler

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#1564 EdRyder

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

It's easy to dismiss because Vulcans aren't real. But substitute any real-life ethnicity into the dialogue and you would get something that would make just about any thinking person uncomfortable. It goes beyond the Vulcan character being a jerk. It's sending the message that Vulcans are jerks and it's okay to hate them for being jerks, and that we should do stuff to make them feel bad and show we're better than them.


This.
And while we're at it : The reason why this episode turned out the way it did is because Piller loved baseball and Berman Loves baseball. Its just indulgent. The episode parallels nothing. Doesnt parallel anything about Vulcan performance enhancing (They hit harder or throw faster so you cant win) Doesnt parallel anything about unbearable terrible little league parents.(The unbearable coach here is Captain Sisko? WTF? The dude loves baseball so no wonder it turned him into an insensitive dick) You can tell its made by people that think baseball is wonderful. Thats all well and good but why even do baseball if you're not going to challenge whats up with modern baseball?
Ultimately they forgot they were writing for their own show, because they turned their main character into the villain by accident. So , baseball didnt bring out the characteristics that make humans humans , it turned Sisko into a Klingon.

#1565 ITDEFX

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

So I am rewatching TNG both Remastered and SD and noticed that Riker got away with a LOT OF shit. He was just too charming for his own good. The whole Pegasus incident should have gotten him sent to prison after the cover up was exposed.
Did he really stick around the enterprise and pass up command just to get Troi back?

#1566 EdRyder

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:15 PM

It always bugged me that Riker didnt lead the Mutiny but rather helped Pressman escape. Not to mention : He's involved in this incident which you mentioned he probably should've been court martialed, Then years later he's granted a tour of the Defiant , which he steals. (It was Thomas but they thought he was Will) Probably should've been in his record to not let him anywhere near the Defiant.

And you cant bring up that episode without talkin about the Enterprise finale.... I still remember Braga talking about it like "It was a great idea , it didnt work because the actors hated it" Ugh

#1567 EdRyder

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

An interesting theory at Hitfix that Cumberbatch is actually playing

Spoiler


No
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#1568 Clak

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

They may have tried to somehow merge the characters.
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#1569 ITDEFX

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:08 PM

It always bugged me that Riker didnt lead the Mutiny but rather helped Pressman escape. Not to mention : He's involved in this incident which you mentioned he probably should've been court martialed, Then years later he's granted a tour of the Defiant , which he steals. (It was Thomas but they thought he was Will) Probably should've been in his record to not let him anywhere near the Defiant.

And you cant bring up that episode without talkin about the Enterprise finale.... I still remember Braga talking about it like "It was a great idea , it didnt work because the actors hated it" Ugh



I blame starfleet for that screw up.. they could have done something to his fingerprints. It's really too bad they never followed up with that episode..yes I know the books and that buggy PC game did..but still would have been nice though.

As for Braga...I think he said it was a "Valentines for the fans!" WTF?

There was no need to bring Riker and Troi back for this......they were so tired looking and gained more weight.

#1570 ITDEFX

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

Speaking of which.........the season 5 episode "Disaster" talk about big whoops on every one's part. Not ONE person is on duty in Engineering? No one on the same deck as the antimatter containment pods to help out? What every vital person is on the holodeck when the QF hits? Can you imagine being there when the power goes out......just complete darkness.

Guess starfleet investigations didn't do much about this.

#1571 ITDEFX

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:53 PM

OH SNAP


#1572 dothog

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

My hatred for "Take me out to the holosuite" is straighforward and far less intellectual than bland's (whose perspective is as always appreciated).

I generally dislike holodeck episodes. I hate baseball. Combining the two is, for me, the perfect awful ST episode in the same way that tomato soup and grilled cheese is, for some, a perfect comfort food.

The same reasoning applies to Vic Fontaine. I don't "get" Rat Pack swagger/crooners, it annoys me, in fact. And you put that in holosuite interactions? Yeah, Fuck that noise. I want to choke him with his tux bowtie. Ring a ding ding.
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#1573 ITDEFX

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

I hated that "Save Vic" episode...... Take me out to the HS was better.

anyways thoughts on the new trailer?

#1574 Syranth

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

OH SNAP


Yours was taken down, but this one will be harder to stop.

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#1575 RedvsBlue

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:31 AM

ITD, yours was good... Worm's was better...

#1576 Syranth

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:19 AM

I guess that is the 10 minutes that people who went to the Hobbit IMAX edition got to see.

#1577 davo1224

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:26 PM

You know what I actually really liked? When Rom had to get a new leg.

#1578 ITDEFX

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

You know what I actually really liked? When Rom had to get a new leg.


You mean NOG?

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#1579 johnnypark

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:41 PM

Now that I've finished TNG and DS9, I'm trying to decide between Voyager or Enterprise. I know some really hate ENT but I also hear it has a lot of throwback references to explain things in later series. Speaking of which, I haven't seen all of TOS if that matters.

Will I get more out of ENT if I watch Voyager first? I love Quantum Leap and so I'm really interested to see Bakula in the role, even if the show is subpar.

And yeah... I already know about the god-awful introduction. I bet that killed half their potential audience alone!

#1580 davo1224

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:25 PM

Haha yeah I forgot his son's name was Nog and he's Rom. I hated the Ferengi episodes like so many but I'm glad they got some race development.

Instead of watching another Trek, watch Babylon 5 if you haven't seen it. It feels a little cheesy at first SFX wise and sometimes the dialogue makes you want to jump down a flight of stairs but it's ridiculously engrossing. Every episode builds on the past and foreshadows the future.

#1581 dohdough

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:55 PM

Now that I've finished TNG and DS9, I'm trying to decide between Voyager or Enterprise. I know some really hate ENT but I also hear it has a lot of throwback references to explain things in later series. Speaking of which, I haven't seen all of TOS if that matters.

Will I get more out of ENT if I watch Voyager first? I love Quantum Leap and so I'm really interested to see Bakula in the role, even if the show is subpar.

And yeah... I already know about the god-awful introduction. I bet that killed half their potential audience alone!


Yeah, I'd say that you'd enjoy Enterprise more than Voyager, but that's once you get through the first couple seasons. Bakula actually kinda sucks in Enterprise because he can't help but exude being a nice guy.

Personally, I thought Enterprise was great and really found it's stride right before they cancelled it. Call me crazy, but I liked the theme song too. Voyager was so shitty that the finale was just an hour long.

#1582 blandstalker

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:13 AM

While I can't in good conscience recommend that you watch Voyager under any circumstances and agree that Enterprise is the way to go....

...if you're set on watching both of them, you probably should watch Voyager first.

The only thing worse than watching the Voyager finale is if that's the last Star Trek you watch. You can wash that bad taste out of your mouth with Enterprise and end with a show that was improving.
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#1583 ITDEFX

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:01 PM

http://www.darkhoriz...nor-controversy

I seriously doubt we are going to get a reissue ...but this shit has to stop!
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how can this get passed quality control?!?!?!?!

#1584 Clak

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:27 AM

Damn, that's a pretty big oversight. Can't believe that wasn't caught.
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#1585 blandstalker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:01 AM

In honor of johnnypark's question, I decided to watch the third and fourth seasons of Enterprise. When the show aired, I watched the first ten episodes as a trial, then decided not to watch the series because it looked like all the worst habits of Voyager. It's been on my to-do list for awhile. And hell, I suffered through most of Voyager over the past few years.

I just finished the third season and am pretty impressed. They did something I've never seen on Star Trek before, which was to create a consistent, arc-based story that progressed through the entire season. While it can't compete with the depth DS9 accomplished over five seasons, it did do some things I've never even seen on DS9, and the attention to continuity and character is incredible.

When it's good, it's really good. Unfortunately, when it's bad, it's still warmed-over Voyager (which is itself warmed-over). There are episodes that are complete wastes of time, and others that are uneven or whose pacing could be improved. Characters are also a mixed bag, and Sato, Mayweather, and Reed are as undeveloped and wallpaper as ever. There were a couple of true surprises in there, though, which were a genuine delight. I'd place one of the third season episodes in any Trek top ten list.

I'm trying to be a little vague, because if (like me) you hadn't seen it, it's worth watching. Even though there are dogs (sorry Porthos), the payoff is worth it, and if the show had been like this from the start, I never would have quit watching it. It's a shame that it took the show so long to figure itself out, resorting to actual quality as a last resort. That I was able to skip almost 40 episodes and not notice anything missing says a lot about how much potential went to waste as the show aimlessly went where every Trek show had been before.

I'm catching up on a handful of highly rated Season 2 episodes, then on to Season 4.
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#1586 ITDEFX

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:03 AM

See this is where CG needs to come in and be used to replace that shot. There is absolutely NO excuse why that shot was over looked like that. I think one of the enterprise/star base effects from Measure of a man has this weird warping effect as the enterprise moves from left to right of frame. I noticed this during the theatrical screening a few months ago. I was like huh?

The only shot I see them having issues with because of the complexity is when the Enterprise blows up multiple times in Cause and Effect. They did a bang up job when that came out and I am hoping they will add more boom to it.

#1587 johnnypark

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:43 AM

In honor of johnnypark's question, I decided to watch the third and fourth seasons of Enterprise. When the show aired, I watched the first ten episodes as a trial, then decided not to watch the series because it looked like all the worst habits of Voyager. It's been on my to-do list for awhile. And hell, I suffered through most of Voyager over the past few years.

I just finished the third season and am pretty impressed. They did something I've never seen on Star Trek before, which was to create a consistent, arc-based story that progressed through the entire season. While it can't compete with the depth DS9 accomplished over five seasons, it did do some things I've never even seen on DS9, and the attention to continuity and character is incredible.

When it's good, it's really good. Unfortunately, when it's bad, it's still warmed-over Voyager (which is itself warmed-over). There are episodes that are complete wastes of time, and others that are uneven or whose pacing could be improved. Characters are also a mixed bag, and Sato, Mayweather, and Reed are as undeveloped and wallpaper as ever. There were a couple of true surprises in there, though, which were a genuine delight. I'd place one of the third season episodes in any Trek top ten list.

I'm trying to be a little vague, because if (like me) you hadn't seen it, it's worth watching. Even though there are dogs (sorry Porthos), the payoff is worth it, and if the show had been like this from the start, I never would have quit watching it. It's a shame that it took the show so long to figure itself out, resorting to actual quality as a last resort. That I was able to skip almost 40 episodes and not notice anything missing says a lot about how much potential went to waste as the show aimlessly went where every Trek show had been before.

I'm catching up on a handful of highly rated Season 2 episodes, then on to Season 4.


I watched the pilot while I was off work for winter break and was surprised how good it was - Trek pilots are notoriously bad. DS9's wasn't terrible but it was a slow start IMO.

Based on your comments I'll probably stick with it, especially since it's only 4 seasons.

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#1588 ITDEFX

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:03 AM

:wall:
http://trekweb.com/a...on-BluRay.shtml
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What the hell happened to the other concept covers they asked the fans to vote on?

#1589 Tony Stark

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:38 AM

that was not one of the voted covers, my guess is it is a UK future cover

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#1590 johnnypark

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:29 PM

Didn't see this posted, thought it was pretty cool. A terminally ill Star Trek fan got to see Into Darkness early:

"There is nothing left to do but make him comfortable, at 41, he [has] jaundice & his liver is enlarged, his body has had enough, he has weeks to live," ideeeyut, quoting Dan's wife, wrote in his post. "[W]e, his friends and family…WOULD LOVE him to be able to see the Star Trek movie," the post continued.

The film is not due to appear in theaters till May 2013.

Undaunted, several members of the Reddit community soon stepped up to lend a hand.

As Mashable notes, some redditors attempted to contact Paramount Pictures, while others reached out to friends and family members who had contacts in the film and TV industries.
Eventually, Dan's story was picked up by national news agencies and soon, his plea reached the ears of J.J. Abrams himself.

According to updates to the original Reddit post, Abrams, who directed both the 2009 film "Star Trek" and the upcoming Star Trek sequel, personally called Dan and his wife and offered them the opportunity of a lifetime.

Two days ago, Dan's wife, through ideeeyut, posted an update, saying that her husband had indeed been able to see the film:

Hi everyone, it's Daniel's wife, we are of course sworn to secrecy, BUT we are officially allowed to say we saw it and we enjoyed it IMMENSELY as a film and as a gesture... It is also so wonderful for his friends & his family to finally hear some good news from us, they know how important film is to Daniel & could not think of a better way to please him. So this gesture really has brought a lot of smiles all around.

After reading the good news, many Redditors were effusive with praise for both Abrams and the Reddit community.

"It's moments like this which remind me why I love this subreddit," wrote user "Deceptitron". "J.J. Abrams earned a few points in my book doing this. I was somewhat shocked he would do this considering how secretive he can be with his work."

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