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Starcraft 2 Official Thread: Heart of the Swarm Time, Yo


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#991 dcm1602

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 06:58 AM

Void Rays are still absurdly overpowered. I love playing Protoss, but its such a pain since you dont wanna use Void Rays because theyre so OP, but if you dont then youll have shit for anti air.

#992 David Hibiki

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    Well then...

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 03:03 PM

Any word on when the Beta is going to end now that theres a solid release date for SC2:WOL? (Sounds so wierd saying theres a solid release date for a Blizzard game!).

#993 dcm1602

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 05:31 PM

No word on when itll end.

Odds are strongly that itll be late june/july though. On account of the game coming out in july and all.

#994 BattleChicken

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 05:57 PM

It does seem that there is less stability, graphics wise.. I'm also using an ATI card. perhaps it is related.

It seems like games have a bit more stuttering or lag.

#995 JolietJake

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 06:39 PM

Nothing causing trouble for me, I'm using a Geforce GTX 260, maybe it's an ATI related issue?

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#996 The Crotch

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 06:40 PM

Void Rays are still absurdly overpowered. I love playing Protoss, but its such a pain since you dont wanna use Void Rays because theyre so OP, but if you dont then youll have shit for anti air.

I'm hesitant to call anything overpowered or imbalanced (except Infestors, Fuck those fuckers), but I know exactly how you feel.

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#997 KhaosX

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 08:33 PM

The only thing i deemed overpowered were roaches pre-nerf. You just couldn't stop those fuckers...

#998 dcm1602

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 11:03 PM

The only thing i deemed overpowered were roaches pre-nerf. You just couldn't stop those fuckers...


Roaches get crushed by air or when I played protoss immortals.

Never had a problem with them

#999 BattleChicken

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 11:19 PM

According to the void ray design.. they're supposed to be counters to capital class air.

Currently, they demolish tiny things as well because of how they retain their charge when they shift targets. They're really strong against everything; They may be somewhat fragile.. but if voids get into your base and get charged up, 4-5 can take out way more stuff than they should be able to.

#1000 The Crotch

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 11:30 PM

Dramatically shorter charge time (maybe even max charge) but no charge retention, maybe?

Problem with the anti-capital-ship role is that by the time they're charged up, odds are, the BCs or whatever they were focusing on has already either been brought down or won the fight.

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#1001 Tony208

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 12:12 AM

On AMERRRRRICAN forums.

We don't know about dem KORRREAN forums.


if no skilled noobs are pwning with Void Rays I wonder what those Koreans can do with a Ray
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#1002 Strell

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 12:13 AM

I bet Koreans probably win with SC1 units.


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#1003 BattleChicken

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 12:27 AM

Dramatically shorter charge time (maybe even max charge) but no charge retention, maybe?

Problem with the anti-capital-ship role is that by the time they're charged up, odds are, the BCs or whatever they were focusing on has already either been brought down or won the fight.


I've proposed it on the forums.. and i still think it would be a good change:

I think Void Rays need to be modified in the following way:

1) change them from the current 2-stage attack back to the 3-stage one. max and min damage would be the same. If the math worked, the min to max charge TIME should be the same also.
2) When the void ray kills or changes targets, the void ray's charge level should drop by one.

The results of those changes would be reduced damage against swarms of small units - like marines and hydralisk - and equal effectiveness against the big units they're supposedly designed to counter.

Void rays should be situationally useful, not universally useful like they currently are. I'm not convinced that void rays should be the base rape that they currently are.. right now, if they're charged and have proper positioning, good luck taking out a small group of them.

"If you use your units right they don't die" may seem obvious.. but the range, paired with the type of damage reduce wasted damage with void rays. There are no units as efficient as a void ray - everything else does burst, and overkills by some number of points. Voids don't really have that going on because of how fast they fire. Voids only gain momentum, and become absurdly powerful against armored.

A well microed group of void rays will win against an equal cost group of possible GROUND void ray counters in most scenarios. I don't think that is the intent of the unit, and a tweak is certainly in order.

While they're at it.. they should revamp hydra so zerg has AA before T2.5

#1004 The Crotch

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 12:34 AM

Vomit creep and spore crawler up, bitches.

Oh, what's that? You can't do that? Why, you worried tha-

Oh. Right. You can't because, according to the games Blizzard keeps arranging for me, nobody plays Zerg. I am really getting tired of Terran-with-a-dash-of-Protoss.

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#1005 Magus8472

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 01:14 AM

While they're at it.. they should revamp hydra so zerg has AA before T2.5


http://www.youtube.c...u/7/s0eu0VRyM-4

It's worth watching, if you haven't seen it.
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#1006 dcm1602

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 01:15 AM

I've proposed it on the forums.. and i still think it would be a good change:

I think Void Rays need to be modified in the following way:

1) change them from the current 2-stage attack back to the 3-stage one. max and min damage would be the same. If the math worked, the min to max charge TIME should be the same also.
2) When the void ray kills or changes targets, the void ray's charge level should drop by one.

The results of those changes would be reduced damage against swarms of small units - like marines and hydralisk - and equal effectiveness against the big units they're supposedly designed to counter.

Void rays should be situationally useful, not universally useful like they currently are. I'm not convinced that void rays should be the base rape that they currently are.. right now, if they're charged and have proper positioning, good luck taking out a small group of them.

"If you use your units right they don't die" may seem obvious.. but the range, paired with the type of damage reduce wasted damage with void rays. There are no units as efficient as a void ray - everything else does burst, and overkills by some number of points. Voids don't really have that going on because of how fast they fire. Voids only gain momentum, and become absurdly powerful against armored.

A well microed group of void rays will win against an equal cost group of possible GROUND void ray counters in most scenarios. I don't think that is the intent of the unit, and a tweak is certainly in order.

While they're at it.. they should revamp hydra so zerg has AA before T2.5


Yup ive been playing some private matches vs a friend who is far better than me and I was using VR heavy strategies to see how well he can counter it.

The best counter to VRs that ive seen is mass hydras which actually does a mediocre job at shutting them down. Problem is once VRs get that first upgrade from the Beacon, they become absolute monsters and will completely obliterate anything. Before that upgrade theyre definitely somewhat counter-able with mass ground AA though.

Nothings that effective vs em though

#1007 KhaosX

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 02:47 AM

You know its funny, battle.net is full of Terran plays with all these toss and zerg nerfs, yet not a single Terran remains in the HDH tournament. I'm not on board with any void nerf, rather im not on board with any toss or zerg nerf unless they revamp reapers.

Nothings that effective vs em though

I was playing with that unit matchup thing that crotch linked earlier, and through a couple of test runs, Equal resource value of hydras for every voidray always beat them in any scenerio of upgrades and phase charge, whether they started the battle phase 3 or phase 1. Same goes for marines. Stalkers however, won against phase1, but lost against pre-charged voids. Also if i recall, prior to the the patch that removed their phase 2 and revamped the VR, it was actually weaker against light armor with a phase 3 damage of 8 (now its 10). People were complaining they weren't doing enough damage to light...

In an actual skirmish, if your opponent is using voidrays, dont ever use bcs or thors or anything with high hp for them to charge off of. Without them, its really difficult for them to phase up since all your small units will die relatively quick.

Edited by KhaosX, 15 May 2010 - 02:59 AM.


#1008 ZasKuLL

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 04:03 AM

So the Beta can now be exited normally without it crashing?

#1009 BattleChicken

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 04:33 AM

http://www.youtube.c...u/7/s0eu0VRyM-4

It's worth watching, if you haven't seen it.


Only part 1 was showing up for me... so i couldn't see all of it. but i DO see where the game was going based on part 1 - queens are AA. Transfusion also makes them very resilient against attacks, if you have enough of them.

Queens are at best a defensive unit. They DO have 150 HP, but you can't use queens in a base raid. IF you were trying to go on the offense, you couldn't pick off AA when you attack. perhaps that is by design, but it is a limitation that only zerg have. Terrans have T1 marines, protoss have T1.5 stalker.

Zerg have T2.5 hydra as their only ground based offensive STA/STS unit. with the recent roach nerf, Zerg really aren't the swarm anymore; they have no 1 food units. zerglings are half a food, but everything else is 2 or more supply.

I think they should swap the hydra and roach in the zerg tech tree; reduce hydra damage and HP, reduce cost, reduce to 1 food, make roach more expensive, give them their armor and better regen again.

#1010 kainzero

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 09:36 AM

if no skilled noobs are pwning with Void Rays I wonder what those Koreans can do with a Ray

the top korean player says you can counter rays with 4 marines and a viking
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#1011 JolietJake

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 04:29 PM

Makes sense, none of those would last very long for the ray to build up a charge.

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#1012 dcm1602

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 05:18 PM

the top korean player says you can counter rays with 4 marines and a viking


So to kill 1 void ray (2 units) you need to use 4 marines and a viking (6 units).

I see some potential problems with that.

#1013 Oktoberfest

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 05:39 PM

I'm still waiting for this reset that's supposed to happen...

#1014 The Crotch

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 06:45 PM

So to kill 1 void ray (2 units) you need to use 4 marines and a viking (6 units).

I see some potential problems with that.

Void Rays are three food, no? And they come out slower than four Marines and a Viking? And they cost more gas than all that?

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#1015 dcm1602

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 06:57 PM

Void Rays are three food, no? And they come out slower than four Marines and a Viking? And they cost more gas than all that?


Ah yeah they are 3 supply not 2.

So its 250minerals and 150 gas 3 supply for 1 VR, vs 350 minerals 75 gas 6 supply for their counter.

Maybe its just me but id gladly sacrifice a little gas to save on all the supply cap.

I mean im really not going to whine about VRs much since I play protoss, but theres no doubt in my mind theyre definitely the best unit in the game and by a significant margin.

And if their best counter requires the other guy to have twice as many units as you, well thats not much of a counter in my opinion.

#1016 JolietJake

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 07:21 PM

I've found that battlecruisers aren't too bad against void rays if you use the yamato cannon, just have to kill them as fast as possible.

I enjoy the videos and puns posted by Joliet Jake. I think he's almost as funny as my favorite comedian, Dane Cook. Now excuse me while I listen to Fallout Boy's music on their myspace page.


#1017 KhaosX

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 07:33 PM

By the time your opponent pops out void rays, you should already have a sufficient supply of units anyway. How hard is it to mass light units against them?

#1018 BattleChicken

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 08:45 PM

By the time your opponent pops out void rays, you should already have a sufficient supply of units anyway. How hard is it to mass light units against them?


Hard. That is the point. Voids have a range of 7 and their damage type is really efficient. If they position right, your light units can't all even shoot them.. and they pick your units off faster than they should be able to.

Someone who is really good playing voids against someone who is really good with anything else.. the voids almost always have a greater than even chance to win.

#1019 dcm1602

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 11:06 PM

By the time your opponent pops out void rays, you should already have a sufficient supply of units anyway. How hard is it to mass light units against them?


Protoss can get VRs out REALLY fast while popping out a zealots.

Gateway - Zealot spamming

While adding a cybernetics core then your starport.

Zealots should be more than enough to hold off any rush till you get your first VR up. Add in the chronos power from the nexus and you can get a VR up real quick. Plus 1 VR should be more than enough to crush MOST rushes.

#1020 KhaosX

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 01:24 AM

You guys really need to watch that video magus linked.