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Stan Lee has lost his mind


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#31 epobirs

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 05:57 AM

you know I went to Wizard World 2006 and sat in on the Kevin Smith panel on that Saturday night and he actually made a very valid point about how the Xmen movies could be taken in a homosexual light. something I never thought of before but actually a very interesting conversation to hear.



Could be taken? COULD BE TAKEN? I think Mr. Smith was having a laugh at the expense of those incapable or unwilling to read the incredibly blatant gay subtext of Xmen 2.

The moving was so flaming they had to add extra fire extinguishers at the theaters where it played. The movie was so intensely gay it had 'Batman and Robin' in a jealous snit.

This is a movie from Bryan Singer, who also placed massive heaping dollops of gay subtext in his Superman movie.

When Iceman's mother asked him if he'd tried not being a mutant, didn't that remind you of a scene played out in so many other movies and TV shows as to be a cliche and why the scene was so funny?
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#32 epobirs

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 06:15 AM

Awesome post! I just knew there were some comic geeks on this site who could equal or better my nerdiness when it comes to the historical context of comics, the creators, and the paranoid societal forces around such inventions as the Comics Code Authority. The ultimate irony being that in my opinion, the CCA made the medium better, because when you think about it, creators like Frank Miller, Alan Moore, and Neil Gaiman would never have created the great works they have unless they had the stupid rules of the CCA to work around.

It's limits that define genius, because without them, how would we ever know what can be possible?


I really have to disagree. Before the CCA there were some very respectable writers spending part of their time in the comics field. After the CCA came in and the market for adult oriented content disappeared, only writers incapable of competing in the prose market or simply desparate for cash would work in comics.

When Frank Miller starting building a name for himself, there had been many events that had loosened the stranglehold the CCA had on creativity. The stories in the 60s and 70s were severely constrained by being unallowed to depict certain major aspects of modern life or even allude to their very existence. When Roy 'Speedy' Harper was revealed to be a heroin addict it was a big deal, not just because of a hero's fall from grace but because it acknowledged that there was such a thing as narcotics and addiction.

Moore and Gaiman never worked under the code when it was in strength. The situation in the UK was a lot looser when they started their careers and much of the constraints had dropped before their work started appearing in the US. Gaiman has made clear that he could easily have skipped comics and worked in short stories and novels all along. Actually, his first work to appear in the US was a book about the creative process behind the 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' first for radio, then TV, and then novels. He got approached for comics work because Moore gave him an acknowledgment for research help on Watchmen at the end of the series and had been talking him to editors as a talent to encourage. If Gaiman hadn't met Moore through a mutual aquaintance he might never have become known as a comics writer before establishing a successful career in novels.

If the CCA had still reigned over US comics publishing, it's unlikely any of the three would have become famous for comics works instead of pursuing other mediums.
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#33 snookie_wookums

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 06:56 AM

I really have to disagree. Before the CCA there were some very respectable writers spending part of their time in the comics field. After the CCA came in and the market for adult oriented content disappeared, only writers incapable of competing in the prose market or simply desparate for cash would work in comics.

When Frank Miller starting building a name for himself, there had been many events that had loosened the stranglehold the CCA had on creativity. The stories in the 60s and 70s were severely constrained by being unallowed to depict certain major aspects of modern life or even allude to their very existence. When Roy 'Speedy' Harper was revealed to be a heroin addict it was a big deal, not just because of a hero's fall from grace but because it acknowledged that there was such a thing as narcotics and addiction.

Moore and Gaiman never worked under the code when it was in strength. The situation in the UK was a lot looser when they started their careers and much of the constraints had dropped before their work started appearing in the US. Gaiman has made clear that he could easily have skipped comics and worked in short stories and novels all along. Actually, his first work to appear in the US was a book about the creative process behind the 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' first for radio, then TV, and then novels. He got approached for comics work because Moore gave him an acknowledgment for research help on Watchmen at the end of the series and had been talking him to editors as a talent to encourage. If Gaiman hadn't met Moore through a mutual aquaintance he might never have become known as a comics writer before establishing a successful career in novels.

If the CCA had still reigned over US comics publishing, it's unlikely any of the three would have become famous for comics works instead of pursuing other mediums.


Please forgive my being unclear regarding the CCA: most of the best work from Miller, Moore, Gaiman was specifically *not* under CCA rule, Miller having kicked off a large part of this with "The Dark Knight Returns", for which DC invented a new format called "the Graphic Novel" in order to market it through direct channels, avoiding the bailiwick of the CCA, which was actually the news outlets that used to be the only place to buy comics. And even in this, it was the presence of the CCA that forced creators and the braver publishers to seek out alternate ways of doing things.

You are absolutely right to point out the body of great work that preceded the CCA that Wertham and company completely destroyed, but the modern day form that comic books have taken is (still) in direct rebellion against everything that the CCA and the moral majority heaped upon the comic book pop culture mainstream.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm no fan of the CCA, but I recognize and celebrate the sweet lemonade we got out of that era of lemons. All that plus the goofy Batman comics of the 60's that make Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" that much more pithy in its execution.

Great thoughts generated here. Thanks for all the great input!!

#34 emdub

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 08:00 AM

So....33 posts an still nobody gets that this article is from the British equivalent to the National Enquirer?
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#35 epobirs

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 08:23 AM

Please forgive my being unclear regarding the CCA: most of the best work from Miller, Moore, Gaiman was specifically *not* under CCA rule, Miller having kicked off a large part of this with "The Dark Knight Returns", for which DC invented a new format called "the Graphic Novel" in order to market it through direct channels, avoiding the bailiwick of the CCA, which was actually the news outlets that used to be the only place to buy comics. And even in this, it was the presence of the CCA that forced creators and the braver publishers to seek out alternate ways of doing things.

You are absolutely right to point out the body of great work that preceded the CCA that Wertham and company completely destroyed, but the modern day form that comic books have taken is (still) in direct rebellion against everything that the CCA and the moral majority heaped upon the comic book pop culture mainstream.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm no fan of the CCA, but I recognize and celebrate the sweet lemonade we got out of that era of lemons. All that plus the goofy Batman comics of the 60's that make Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" that much more pithy in its execution.

Great thoughts generated here. Thanks for all the great input!!


Just a small nitpick but DC did not start the graphic novel with 'The Dark Knight Returns.' The term was first used by Marvel in branding a series of high end one-shot with higher quality binding and heavy paper, starting with 'The Death of Captain Marvel' and soon moving on to entirely original works. Before 'Dark Knight' DC and Miller got into this outreach to more mature readers with 'Ronin.' both companies were reacting to their talent being more and more attracted to doing work with small independents or self-publishing. It wasn't a big money maker for the creators but it was far more satisfying to not be bound to any existing backstory at Marvel or DC.

The big publishers didn't like the idea of characters who received new material when the creator felt he had something genuinely worth doing rather than on a set schedule. A publishing schedule of 'when I feel like it' doesn't go over well with big companies.

The CCA did have a tremendous influence on the work of writers like Moore but mainly in that it inspired deconstruction of those bizarre universes in which normal human motivations were grossly distorted or missing. One of the many subtexts of Watchmen was comparing the world of Golden Age comics to the harsh realities of a more believable world. At first, the era of the original Minutemen seems idyllic but is revealed to have been rather gruesome with many casualties and regrets.

This legacy carries on. It was only a few years ago that DC got a lot of shock value in revealing that Sue Dibny had been raped by Dr. Light years earlier. But in a universe abounding with amoral superhumans, shouldn't this be a very frequent threat to female superheroes and women close to male superheroes?

Even casual sex is still a rarity. The Ultimate Hulk Annual from last week is hilarious in breaking that barrier. After a massive battle, the Squadron Supreme's doppleganger for Wonder Woman takes the Hulk out for breakfast and at his suggestion they get a motel room for a one-night stand. In almost any other medium this would be amusing but in this setting it is far funnier thanks to the shock value of two version of iconic characters jumping into bed together purely for the experience and not some grand cosmos shattering passion.
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#36 epobirs

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 08:24 AM

So....33 posts an still nobody gets that this article is from the British equivalent to the National Enquirer?


The story has been covered extensively elsewhere. It's real.

The source material:
http://www.amazon.co...32094240&sr=1-1
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#37 snookie_wookums

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 03:54 PM

So....33 posts an still nobody gets that this article is from the British equivalent to the National Enquirer?


You might not understand this, but nearly *all* the British newspapers are equivalent to the National Enquirer.

#38 snookie_wookums

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 04:00 PM

Just a small nitpick but DC did not start the graphic novel with 'The Dark Knight Returns.' The term was first used by Marvel in branding a series of high end one-shot with higher quality binding and heavy paper, starting with 'The Death of Captain Marvel' and soon moving on to entirely original works. Before 'Dark Knight' DC and Miller got into this outreach to more mature readers with 'Ronin.' both companies were reacting to their talent being more and more attracted to doing work with small independents or self-publishing. It wasn't a big money maker for the creators but it was far more satisfying to not be bound to any existing backstory at Marvel or DC.

The big publishers didn't like the idea of characters who received new material when the creator felt he had something genuinely worth doing rather than on a set schedule. A publishing schedule of 'when I feel like it' doesn't go over well with big companies.

The CCA did have a tremendous influence on the work of writers like Moore but mainly in that it inspired deconstruction of those bizarre universes in which normal human motivations were grossly distorted or missing. One of the many subtexts of Watchmen was comparing the world of Golden Age comics to the harsh realities of a more believable world. At first, the era of the original Minutemen seems idyllic but is revealed to have been rather gruesome with many casualties and regrets.

This legacy carries on. It was only a few years ago that DC got a lot of shock value in revealing that Sue Dibny had been raped by Dr. Light years earlier. But in a universe abounding with amoral superhumans, shouldn't this be a very frequent threat to female superheroes and women close to male superheroes?

Even casual sex is still a rarity. The Ultimate Hulk Annual from last week is hilarious in breaking that barrier. After a massive battle, the Squadron Supreme's doppleganger for Wonder Woman takes the Hulk out for breakfast and at his suggestion they get a motel room for a one-night stand. In almost any other medium this would be amusing but in this setting it is far funnier thanks to the shock value of two version of iconic characters jumping into bed together purely for the experience and not some grand cosmos shattering passion.


I've seen that comic on the internet, Wonder Woman and the Hulk, but there was no breakfast or motel room involved ;-) :bouncy:

Awesome feedback man! It's rare for someone to outgeek me on the nitty gritty of comic books history. Bravo! :applause:

#39 neocisco

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 06:27 PM

The big publishers didn't like the idea of characters who received new material when the creator felt he had something genuinely worth doing rather than on a set schedule. A publishing schedule of 'when I feel like it' doesn't go over well with big companies.


Maybe in theory but not in practice. Unfortunately, many writers and pencilers today have no work ethic, allow work to be solicited and then let it become months late. Warren Ellis, Jeph Loeb, Ed McGuinness, Tim Sale, Bryan Hitch, Joe Madureira, fill-in-the-blank Hollywood guy writing a comic, etc. The publishers and editors are just as much to blame for hiring these people with proven records of not being dependable. IMO, this is the single biggest problem with the comics industry.

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#40 snookie_wookums

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:41 PM

Maybe in theory but not in practice. Unfortunately, many writers and pencilers today have no work ethic, allow work to be solicited and then let it become months late. Warren Ellis, Jeph Loeb, Ed McGuinness, Tim Sale, Bryan Hitch, Joe Madureira, fill-in-the-blank Hollywood guy writing a comic, etc. The publishers and editors are just as much to blame for hiring these people with proven records of not being dependable. IMO, this is the single biggest problem with the comics industry.



And yet, Brian Michael Bendis continues to defy my expectations for him to start sucking any day now. No matter how much I try to not like his stuff just on principle, he consistently puts out a TON of material and it's almost always great reading.

Also, don't forget about Robert Kirkman, who in my opinion is probably the best currently working and very active writer in the business. The Walking Dead is probably the absolute best character development work I've ever read, and that's saying something since I worked at a comic book shop for close to 10 years.

#41 crunchb3rry

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 01:03 AM

Walking Dead is great but the dialogue can be a little too hokey at times. I wish like crazy that Tony Moore stayed on as the main artist. Charlie Adlard isn't even in his league. I bought the first 8 TPBs as a lot on eBay (which I might sell since I also got the hardcovers due to a shipping mistake that I never returned), and going from TPB 1 to TPB 2 and onward is like night and day.

#42 snookie_wookums

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 02:28 AM

Hokey dialogue, sure, but the world Kirkman has set up is believeable enough that I let it go.

Agreed, Tony Moore is a great artist, and set a tone that Adlard has not quite matched, but after so many issues, I have to admit I've gotten used to Adlard since the story and the style in which it's told (black and white) is stark enough that his style fits.

#43 epobirs

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 03:30 AM

I've seen that comic on the internet, Wonder Woman and the Hulk, but there was no breakfast or motel room involved ;-) :bouncy:

Awesome feedback man! It's rare for someone to outgeek me on the nitty gritty of comic books history. Bravo! :applause:


I was referring to this: http://www.demonoid....46969/13328001/

Perhaps you saw something else. I recall some bad fan art depicting the Hulk raping Wonder Woman.
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