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CAGcast #147: The Airing of the Grievances


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#121 Joon2324

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:48 PM

Very interesting show as usual. I enjoy the fact that wombat makes conjectures in industries that aren't his forte. I agree that he has a firm grasp on the demands of marketing, but he likes to dabble in topics he isn't necessarily educated in. This gives him the propensity to be incorrect every now and then, but more importantly, I think it gives us a fresh look on whatever it is he's dabbling in at the moment.

Cheapy helps keep the show flowing and has valuable opinions, but some of the topics I find really interesting are brought up by wombat. The conversations about the wii audience consumer education level and sony's marketing strategy being two from this podcast.

That leads me to my comment: My personal impression of Sony is that they're are a company that continues to rely on brand name rather than product development. They've had little impetus to shorten product development cycles and really develop a better product. Their Bravia line of LCD TVs are technologically competitive with Sharp, but Sharp and Samsung make comparable products that are frequently available at lower prices. My wife has a Vaio laptop, and my personal experience with Vaios is that they are pretty but not really reliable products.

Samsung has actually taken a large market segment in an array of Sony's product lines due to the fact that they are now manufacturing competive products at a lower pricepoint.

The end. Sorry this was so long.
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#122 sunbound

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:51 PM

[quote name='trip1eX']I like the temporary blue laser light trail in Dead Space more than the golden crumb trail in Fable2 because you could easily call it up with a button press whenever you got lost. It lasted a few seconds and then it was gone until you called it up again. It didn't hang around and it didn't require a pause the game/menu function to get rid of it.quote]

I would have to agree also. When this topic first came up, I was like "what about the way Deadspace does things?!" Is simple, it doesn’t interfere with the game, and its temporary.


As for Sony picking on the XBOX, I'm just surprised that they failed to notice that the same reason they are NOT on top this time is the same reason XBOX wasn’t last time... I remember people bashing the XBOX because it was big, black and ugly... while i have to admit, the PS3 is "purrty", its friggn HUGE!

Sony and MS have swapped places this gen... Last gen, the XBOX had the best graphics, but the games weren’t there to back it up. PS2's graphics weren’t up to par, but the games where awesome!

When both neighbors look over the fence and both say "your grass is greener, lets swap places", someone always looses.

I'm not sure if people remember the vaporware called "phantom" that was unveiled at the 2004 E3, that promised 100% digital distribution. Others are right, no way is a completely digital distribution model going to thrive with the bandwidth the US has (collectively), and the bandwidth caps the ISP are looking at enforcing. What might work is a model after iTunes, where people can purchase cards at a retailer; the cards come with the code to download the game, and might include the artwork and instructions for the games. This way the retailers can still "sell" the games, and the games would take up less space. Unfortunately, GameStop might disappear, along with services like GameFly. I also agree that after buying a movie, it is rare that I ever really watch it again, unless I have a guest over who hasnt seen it (or if its porn, and i need a little "skin time").


As for the show overall, I think this was one of the best shows so far; It was great listening to the both of you bicker about the relevance of Howard Stern and Jay Leno, I personally cant stomach either of them vary much (though I do like leno's bike collection), and think arguing who is better is like arguing weather SPAM is better than Marmite.

Also, any tips for a first time dad who needs more gaming time, who is a full time employee and a full time student? BTW, my kid is 9 months old, and listening to you guys talking about your kids helps me relate, even if it is just about baby poop.

Keep it up guys.



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#123 Joon2324

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 11:00 PM

Sunbound makes a good point, but I actually turned onto Xbox late; and at the end of last generation it was largely my console of choice. This is almost solely due to the existence of Xbox Live. My PS2 was more comfortable and cheaper, but as soon as enough of my friends could play on live with me, I played my Xbox the majority of the time.

I also wanted to comment that perhaps Nintendo DS sales continue to be strong because console owners are actually purchasing new "copies" of the DS. I've considered replacing my DS just because of cosmetic wear. Owners of the original DS can justify purchasing the DS Lite, and casual gamers might find the as the battery slowly dies they can buy a fresh DS. Battery failure was a driving cause of early generation Ipod sales.
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#124 sunbound

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 11:10 PM

I purchased my original xbox AFTER I had already purchased a PS2 and a gamecube (still have them). I actually bought the xbox to play splintercell because it looked the best on xbox. Once I started playing it, I barely ever picked my PS2 up, and the gamecube didn’t get any play till RE4 came out. (I also favored my xbox because of the legitimate joys modification can bring. I haven’t modified my 360 because everything I want comes with it, out of the box)




I also feel that one of the reasons Nintendo has been successful with both their newest home and portable consoles is because they are "multipurpose" in the sense that they don’t only have games... they have "applications". Wii fit, the language games, and the like aren’t really games, they strive to teach you something and help you improve in a practical way. Why the other console manufacturers haven’t noticed this is beyond me... it seems to be a lucrative niche.

Edited by sunbound, 22 January 2009 - 11:23 PM.


#125 DarkNessBear

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 01:20 AM

Ok so what's with all this commotion about Bluray being replaced by digital downloads. Well of course it's going to eventually happen, but not any time soon. I think Bluray and DVD make a great couple, for those epic movies I tend to go towards Bluray and for all others I tend to just take DVD so I can take it between houses ect.

And you know if you have a console that's entirely "digital download" you are going to be set with a limit of downloads (like the PS3's gameshare), that's going to be annoying when I just want to watch a movie I purchased at my place at my friends place.

I mean, I enjoy having a big digital collection on my PS3 and all... but until human interaction ends or if they figure away that makes "borrowing" and trading easy than it will never be the main format choice for people. (I mean Cheapy you are living in Japan, of course you'd prefer Digital downloads; the nearest person you'd trade with is like a bajillion miles away.)
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#126 trip1eX

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:16 AM

[quote name='Wombat'][quote name='trip1eX']wtf was Wombat trying to say about digital downloads? A game is longer than a movie so digital downloads aren't viable or not coming soon or ??!?!?! Wombat you were on a roll until then!!!!
QUOTE]

you misheard me, i was referring to me personally, I don't "need" to own a movie which is why I like on-demand services. Games I want to own. My problem mostly would be storage. And the broadband issue is a good arguement. Oh and the retail lobby. Steam works because it is PC where storage is cheap and the audience is targeted. But right now you have EB refusing to stock games that require a Steam download http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3172408. So it the real question is who is more powerful, the stores or the digital clients. So a complete digital marketplace is far far off. Mostly becuase the Big Box stores won't allow it. Its about business not technology. Can do and will do are two different things[/QUOTE]


Ok first you were on a roll and made some great observations during the show. Impressive as I pointed out earlier.

... but i didn't mishear you. Sure you answered the question with your own personal situation, but that was the problem with your answer. :) It didn't take into account the many developments (and variables) going on in the digital download marketplace outside of Wombat's home. ;)

On STeam you can re-download games anytime you want so the storage issue is a fairly mute issue as is ownership. It's not like you need anything more than a 250gb drive or so to keep a good number of games on hand either. Just because the 360 doesn't let you purchase an off-the-shelf hard drive like the Ps3 does doesn't mean storage will be a roadblock next-gen.

And bandwidth and time to download isn't even much of a big deal since Steam has shown it is possible to pre-download most of a game before the release date so then one has very little of the game left to download by the time the game is released.

The App store seems to showing us that an entire digital download marketplace is very viable. Nintendo was scared enough to release the DSi. Music amongst the kids is all digital downloads now too. Movies are just beginning to go there as well although the device to play them in the living room haven't exploded in popularity yet.

Ultimately the digital clients and game publishers (and really the consumers) have the power. The retailers can only hope to delay the inevitability of an all digital download marketplace. GS is taking that stand on Dawn of War 2 because they have their own download service. It's not like their B&M business makes any money selling brand new pc games and there is no used pc game business for them to profit from either.

But at least we agree big box stores are a big hindrance to digital downloads because digital downloads become much more attractive when some of the cost savings is passed onto customers which won't happen with the same product in big box stores.

I say there is a big reward waiting for the first home platform to jump into a totally digital download marketplace. Perhaps it will be the pc even. Here's how you need to think of it. Remember the PS1 and the N64 and one of the big reasons Sony was able to come out on top and end Nintendo domination? IT was because they offered a cheaper format to publish games on. Don't think digital downloads are any different.

#127 charleytony

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:32 AM

Since I heard about Nick Sutner (RockSolidAudio) asking CheapyD about making reviews for CAG, I started thinking about reviews on this site again.

Cheapy, is it that you dont want reviews on the site or that you dont want to hire people because the site wont be profitable anymore ?

How about making a review crew with community members that would do it for fun/free ? I would be the first to register and could probably produce a decent sized post about a game each week, maybe even more. If we got 5 to 10 CAGs into this, we would have a lot of review in no time !

Think about the cagcast where you and wombat talked about using different scales to report on games, like evaluating what a game is worth, which kinda goes hand in hand with the deals posted on this site.
All this stuff could be linked together with the new CAG 2.0

Simply adding a reviews section here could bring more traffic around here !

Edited by charleytony, 23 January 2009 - 03:48 AM.

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#128 charleytony

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:53 AM

Second subject: Having a 3rd guy on the show: Shipwreck !

Cheapy said that he thought it wasnt worth the trouble and lag to have a 3rd person in the cagcast. Since Im pretty sure you guys use skype to record it, didn't you know that you could use Skype and have everyone record their audio from their computer and then have Wombat and Shipwreck send you the audio files and all you have to do is mix the 3 files into one .....

This also helps, apparently, when you need to bleep something or erase a nasty cough because you can edit the audi from one person and not cut off the next guy...
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#129 CheapyD

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 04:23 AM

How about making a review crew with community members that would do it for fun/free ?

Simply adding a reviews section here could bring more traffic around here!

It's coming Feb 1 (beta).

didn't you know that you could use Skype and have everyone record their audio from their computer and then have Wombat and Shipwreck send you the audio files and all you have to do is mix the 3 files into one .....

Yeah, this is what we do. The problem is the latency that occurs when you are actually trying to talk to each other during the show. It results in people talking over each other.

#130 xGunCrazyx

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 04:42 AM

I think I'm the one who accidentally started all this GameTZ vs CAG non-sense when I posted the link to that Forbes article.
Personally I thought it was a good article and wanted to share it with the GameTZ community because we were also mentioned (which hardly happens around GTZ).

Within hours, it became a flamefest that was totally unintended for on my part.

As far as those pictures are concerned, I wouldn't take it for too much.
Some members of the GameTZ community (at least in the forums) have a pretty warped sense of humour
If you were a regular user of the site, you would get used to it like me and many others have

Either way, sorry about all the crap from GameTZ

Edit: By the way, kudos to Bill for apologizing too :)
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#131 acolon

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 04:43 AM

As usual another great show ... Also liking what I am hearing about CAG 2.0, but damn Cheapy, seems like you've been talking about this upgrade for the longest ... At this rate I'd expect to be playing the next Duke Nukem before CAG 2.0 hits.

#132 acolon

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 04:49 AM

I have to agree with the whole discussion regarding the 30 Live cards that have been popping up. I strongly believe that Microsoft is testing the waters regarding the possible price drop of the PS3. As an alternative to dropping the XBOX price to counter-act a PS3 drop, I see Microsoft focussing on dropping the prices of their accessories and Live membership as well as offering another bundle or two.

#133 Death by Kuvasz

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 08:53 AM

Good show as usual. I have a problem though with the NPD's (not picking on Cheapy and Wombat discussing them, just the NPD's in general). I don't think it's fair to compare Wii's NPD numbers to the other two, as it seems it is more of a jump-on-the-bandwagon fad rather than a serious video game console. I think it only sells well because it is the current "it item", as can be seen by high console selling rates yet low attach rate. Many get it home, play with it for a week, then it sits in the corner with the Nordictracks and Total Gyms. I believe there will come a time when the sales will just drop off because people will see it for what it is.


*Obviously all of them don't go unused and are played regularly, but many are dust bunny homes.*
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#134 thenexus6

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:27 AM

Pretty good show guys, not quite as laugh out loud funny as always but still a real good listen. Plus I was featured on the show for the first time in the CAG bag. Happiest day of my life!

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#135 Devil May Cry

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:57 AM

This one is for Wombat.

What is your view on the recently announced Killzone 2 PS3 Bundle? (ps3fanboydotcom has it up if confirmation is needed) Is Killzone 2 a popular enough title/series to be put in a bundle? Is the Killzone 2 the "hot title" needed to sell units? Also, do you think the Killzone 2 will match or possibly outsell the MGS4 bundle? Thanks for your time.

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#136 thenexus6

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 11:26 AM

I liked the discussion about digital downloads and heres what I think. Movies works perfectly for downloads, like Wombat said most people only need to see a movie once and they're done. But rewatching them will also be fine i.e. when kids watch the same movie everyday. All you do is boot up the 360/PS3 etc and bam you're in business.

The main problem with downloading movies and or game is: Storage file sizes from them aren't that small and you'll find your hdd full in no time. Also internet speed too, if the only method of buying movies/games were by downloading alot of people would be pissed if their internet isn't great.

But my main problem is I don't really like downloading stuff like movies/games because I don't really own it. If I get a movie or game on disc it's mine, I have a solid copy.

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I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it. Don't wait for it. Just let it happen. It could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot black coffee.
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#137 Daze311

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 12:42 PM

I really like how you two dove into what company's (Hem! PS3) marketing should be doing and how other company's made a whole new name for it self. i really enjoyed how you guys talk in which way the industry is going and said a lot of smart stuff. by the way i hope you get your 900 bucks back soon. Remember 1/2 ounce of prune juice.
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#138 LiK

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 01:27 PM

you misheard me, i was referring to me personally, I don't "need" to own a movie which is why I like on-demand services. Games I want to own. My problem mostly would be storage. And the broadband issue is a good arguement. Oh and the retail lobby. Steam works because it is PC where storage is cheap and the audience is targeted. But right now you have EB refusing to stock games that require a Steam download http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3172408. So it the real question is who is more powerful, the stores or the digital clients. So a complete digital marketplace is far far off. Mostly becuase the Big Box stores won't allow it. Its about business not technology. Can do and will do are two different things


the stores are definitely way more powerful. we need more AO games! ;)
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#139 xDARKx Knight

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 01:42 PM

Daze311 the GIF in your signature is awesome lol :)

Anyway, loved the show guys. You should do a 2 hour(ish) show all the time!

#140 Tengaport

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:13 PM

kudos on the Fletch quote :)

#141 trip1eX

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:23 PM

Wombat's Killzone 2 observation was also keen. It really isn't a big franchise and yet some gaming media are treating it as such.

#142 PhaperPlane

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 06:54 PM

That song at the beginning is made of awesome :D Brings back many memories!

Great show as always, keep up the great work!
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#143 StinkyCheese

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 08:27 PM

That song at the beginning is made of awesome :D Brings back many memories!

Great show as always, keep up the great work!


You make me mad Cheapy. when I started listening to the start, I heard the Inspector Gadget theme song sirens, and I got my hopes up. I like My Milkshake Brings all the Boys to the Yard, but that was a horrible amalgamation.

<-- Never listening again


No, it was not awesome :bouncy:
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#144 otherland

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 11:12 PM

Wombat makes several cogent hypotheses, interpretations, and conclusions concerning the success of any particular console or game, and I despair at such conjecture; not because I suspect Wombat of being an idiot (though being an alumnus of UPitt, one does wonder. Tessaro's and Church Brew Works are the only real saving grace of the city.), but because of the "truthiness" behind them. The fact that so many consumers are prone to agree, myself included, with Wombat just furthers this conclusion. The very idea that non-industry people perceive and large disconnect to what should be marketing aimed to them is a troubling sign that something is wrong. And since marketing is about promises and perceptions, if the public perceives something wrong, something is wrong. In a time when adds are trying to be "hip" weird", or "avant-garde", they often miss the point of showcasing the actual product. When the product is... something like tampons, showing the product in use is obviously not going to work; so you need "clever" marketing. But games have flashing graphics. Show them off. There really isn't a need to wrap them in shiny wrappings. To Sony, if Nintendo really isn't your competition, and the Wii is clearly a "family-room-kid-friendly-casual-gamer-machine" then any attempt to poorly market your products to a "mainstream" audience just contradicts you and makes you look both hypocritical and foolish to the more niche (though growing) gamer demograph, and confusing and ineffectual to the "mainstream" demograph. You can't have your cake and eat it too; if you do, you need much better marketing.

#145 Moxio

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 01:49 AM

I really like how you two dove into what company's (Hem! PS3) marketing should be doing and how other company's made a whole new name for it self. i really enjoyed how you guys talk in which way the industry is going and said a lot of smart stuff. by the way i hope you get your 900 bucks back soon. Remember 1/2 ounce of prune juice.


Hey Daze, your sig is kinda of really big. Please remove it or I will be forced to report you. Thanks.

#146 Pojomofo

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 02:34 AM

Cheapy,

I disagree about a few comments that you had regarding Kaz's comments the the Playstation Magazine, I believe when he talks about life cycles how the PS3 will last 10 years, he is NOT saying that the PS3 will be the flagship console for Sony for 10 years, but, much like the PS2, it will have full Sony support for ten years. There very well could be a new Sony Console in 2014 or whenever, but PS3 owners can expect to have great content coming for it for years to come, where as we have see with Microsoft when the switch to a new console, the old console is put to death immediately.

Question: Dont you think it is an appealing prospect for someone looking to buy a console to see Kaz talking about 10 year lifecycles when MS and NIntendo will likely only have a 5-6 year lifecycle?

I agree with Wombats assessment of the PS3's marketing as an embarresment, Kaz should be talking to Vareity or Entertainment Weekly to try to broden their horizons then talking about this in Playstation magazine

#147 FriskyTanuki

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 02:35 AM

I have to agree with the whole discussion regarding the 30 Live cards that have been popping up. I strongly believe that Microsoft is testing the waters regarding the possible price drop of the PS3. As an alternative to dropping the XBOX price to counter-act a PS3 drop, I see Microsoft focussing on dropping the prices of their accessories and Live membership as well as offering another bundle or two.

That's kind of the sign I got from the rash of $30 sales, as well. It seems like they're trying to gauge the response of new subscribers due to the lower cost of entry, which would probably be a good idea if they wish to get more people to go gold.


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#148 terpkristin

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 03:03 AM

I really enjoyed the show this week, it was a good blend of gaming talk and..well, life talk. Lots of little talking points this week:

*To me, 4 hours would be a looong podcast. By the time I got to the end of it, I probably wouldn't remember what was said at the beginning. ;) And, the way my workdays have been going, there'd be no way for me to get through an episode in one
day. But as others have mentioned, in this day and age of mp3s, size doesn't matter.

*I disagree with Wombat, Mario Kart Wii IS a bad game. I think Nintendo went too far with the entire "anybody can win" idea to the detriment of a series I really enjoyed. I never had a N64, so the SNES version is still my favorite.

*I think that The Office can be hit or miss. I think the episodes are either downright funny, or they make you want to cringe. I too enjoy 30 Rock, but I wonder if I'll like it as much as I do now in another season or so.

*I commented on Twitter about this, but you guys talked a bit about which console had better graphics, 360 or PS3. I agree with you guys, for games that are released at the same time for both, I think it's pretty equal. However, for games that have more dev time on one console or the other, the graphics usually get better. Take Oblivion. It's a great game with gorgeous graphics on both consoles, but it does look better on my PS3 than my 360. Of course, it came out about a year later...

*I agree with whoever said Rusty would be a good interview. He seems like a decent guy, and maybe that would show others that he's not the root of all UGO evil.

And that's that. Thanks for the entertainment this week, guys, it was a particularly long and frustrating week.

/tk
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#149 banodyne

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:39 AM

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Michael Pachter is full of crap.

Yeah, I'll agree with that. I remember early in 2008, Pachter was on the OXM Podcast and said the Wii would dominate (correct) and that the PS3 would eclipse the 360 (way off) this holiday season. Hats off for being blunt right to Xbox journalists' faces but as accurate as any 15 year old forum poster. As we've seen lately, these Wall Street investment types are not that bright.

#150 banodyne

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:58 AM

Meanwhile, Microsoft dropped the XBox like a bad habit, despite the fact that lots of people had no intention of shelving theirs.

I felt pretty burned when Microsoft jumped ship from the original XBox, and then hastily launched the 360 despite the massive hardware issues; and this is the main reason why the PS3 was the safest purchase for me, even at the higher price point.

In Dean Takahashi's book "The Xbox 360 Uncloaked" they revealed the reason why they abandoned the original Xbox so quickly. Due to the licensing deal with Nvidia there was no way to ever bring the cost down of the system to where Microsoft could break even on the system. Ask your library to score a copy. It's a great read to see why things are the way they are.

And to be fair to Microsoft, they stopped production of the system but they still allowed anyone who wanted to publish a game to do so. Madden 2009 was put out. And the servers for all Xbox LIVE original Xbox games are still up and running. (Except for EA which insisted on running their own servers... and shutting them down 2 years after a game's release.)

In fact, Nielsen revealed that more people were still playing their original Xbox then PlayStation 3 in 2008.

Edited by banodyne, 24 January 2009 - 10:16 AM.
corrected Madden 2009 entry