RPGs that didn't impress you...

ChernobylCow

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In the wake of Persona 4's great acclaim and acceptance, I decided to get Persona 3:FES.

I am the sort of person that does plenty of research on something that I plan on spending my hard earned $$$ on (or Goozex points in this case). I'll read many reviews trying to see if some reviewer had some obviously failed to recognize a killer flaw in a game that would kill it for me.

In the end I decided to try out P3:FES. First off there is about 30 minutes of scripted dialogue and exposition. X continue dialogue, here's a character. X continue dialogue, here's the dorm...yadda yadda yadda. Then once they finally let you start playing I realize that this game is (I guess I should've predicted it) merely a dungeon crawler like Nocturne [see below] all over again. Except instead of a streamless dungeon crawl, the game forces you to go through dialogue sequences again and again (going to school) before it lets you play the game? Man, forget that. In Baldur's Gate 2, if I don't want to talk to someone I'll kill them. In Planescape: Torment, if I don't like someone that I'm talking to I'll talk them into a loophole so that they UNTHINK their own existence.

So if I am wrong here please say that the game opens up...eventually. Because I'm at about 3 hours and I feel like I'm waiting for the game to become....a dungeon crawler.

Don't get me wrong, I admire the art style, the anime cinematics, the attempt at introducing social elements, and the unique premise. As opposed to Nocturne this game actually has character development (no not leveling up, I mean there is depth to the characters, albeit shallow).

So anyways.

RPGs I took back to the store:

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne:
During a gaming drought, I digged around on the internet to find some game and I decided that it would be worth a try! Even at a Gamestop used price of $30. After 8 hours I determined that the story would never begin, that there would be practically NO characters with NO depth and from the gameplay...all I had experienced was practically a Pokemon game. That's not bad, but I played Pokemon 10 years ago on a GBA when Red and Blue first came out and never looked back.

Dragon Quest VIII:
After I returned Nocturne I picked this one up. Amazing animation, character design, and color palette...but couldn't this game be played on a GBA? Where is the gameplay depth? The world judged this one wrong. I took this game back after 20 hours when I knew the story wasn't going to give me anything new. Horrible alchemy system.

Disgaea 1 & 2:
These games definately have depth to their gameplay. For sure. There's a ton of meat here too with the item worlds and leveling system. But the game is just not for me. I am a squad tactics purist. When I am playing a turn-based game it, in my mind, should solely be about my squad VS the enemy. I shouldn't be worrying about hopscotching around onto blue squares to hit the purple NULL that will cause a chain reaction which will HOPEFULLY kill an enemy I couldn't reach in the first place thanks to the random dungeon generator. I liked FFT, I liked Silent Storm, I liked Baldur's Gate 1&2, Fallout, etc. This one turned out to be a puzzle game, more like. Just not for me.

So if you want to defend P3, please do. I am a patient gamer, having beaten clunky games (to some, unloveable) such as Siren: New Translation and Gothic [pc]. I am just trying to be more picky about how I squander my lovely entertainment time.
 
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Eh. I'm loving Persona 3 but I can definitely see how someone wouldn't appreciate its unusual approach. It does have ultra-long dialogue sequences but that's kind of the point of the game. And if you don't like dungeon crawls, then yeah, it's just not going to be your cup of tea.

It is kind of funny to me that you don't like Shin Megami Tensei or Dragon Quest. They're like polar opposite examples of JRPG design. I'd think that if you had a strong dislike for one, you might really dig the other. What JRPGs do you like?
 
Honestly, I am replaying FFIX right now. I am enjoying it mostly but am sort of bored with its dated combat...I'm nit picky about the story because it's being told from dual perspectives atm which many people might praise but I believe it's disjointed and unnecessary.

In the end, the only JRPGs I can say with true honesty that I liked would be Suikoden 1 & 2. Their combat is dated, of course, but their stories actually have significant things at stake. There are numerous characters w/memorable personalities, not just character art design.
In the end I guess am just from the school of Western RPGs. None of the JRPGs I've played can satisfy anything that the following games have provided:
1) Baldur's Gate I & II
2) Fallout 1 & 2
3) Deus Ex & Fallout 3
 
Of the games you mentioned, I loved BG, BG2, DQ8, P3, and Disgaea 1.
Tried but couldn't get into PS:Torment and hated Disgaea 2.
Currently enjoying P4.

Each game has its own charms and its own drawbacks (for example, BG series has stupid pathfinding).
 
freedom is not the kinda thing that pops into my head when i think "japanese gaming"
think about who makes the "choose your own adventure" games
sandbox games.
I cant think of one that has been developed from japan.
JRPGs i guess arent suppose to have that kind of freedom. They are number crunchers, much more so than any western RPG. no western RPG has the numerical rigor of Jrpgs.
its cultural i guess
 
You tell it like it is man. I kinda regret all that time I wasted on RPGs.

I know I'm going to end up finishing Shadow Hearts Covenant, but I'm really starting to question why...
 
[quote name='camoor']You tell it like it is man. I kinda regret all that time I wasted on RPGs.
[/QUOTE]
If you enjoyed playing the RPGs, how was that wasted time? Isn't that the point of playing video games?

If you weren't enjoying them, why were you playing them?
 
[quote name='ChernobylCow']
In the end I guess am just from the school of Western RPGs. [/QUOTE]

You should have posted "I like Western RPGs. I don't like JRPGs." right at the beginning of the thread. It would have saved a lot of time.
 
[quote name='oremites']If you enjoyed playing the RPGs, how was that wasted time? Isn't that the point of playing video games?

If you weren't enjoying them, why were you playing them?[/quote]

:applause: There is hope for humanity yet!
 
I've had the opposite experience with P3:FES to the OP. I have never been a big fan of JRPG's in fact I hated them for some reason. Just like the OP I did my research on P3:FES and I read a crap load of impressions and reviews. When the FES version came out I decided to buy it.

It's the best game I have ever played hands down. I love everything about the game. I love the part of being a HS'er, going on field trips, taking exams, going on dates, making friends etc. And the story gets pretty cool too. Don't want to spoil it for anyone.

For some reason I had no problems with the dungeon in fact i'm at the top and have 16 days left to boost my stats before I fight the Main Boss. I also love all the Persona's you can make in this game. It's awesome and now i've come full circle and started buying JRPG's because of P3:FES. I also bought P4 as well. As soon as i'm finished with P3 i'll crack open P4.

As someone else stated and impressions i've read. P3 is not for everyone even if your a fan of JRPG's. A buddy of mine who works at Gamestop loves the game but hates the huge dungeon. I'm totally the opposite. I love the dungeon part and all the cool monsters you fight along with all the crazy magic you get to use.
 
First, if you did as much research as you say I don't see how you couldn't have gone into Persona not knowing it was one big dungeon-crawl.

Secondly, console RPGs, and especially JRPGs, are nothing like the great Western PC RPGs that you named, such as BG, PS:T, Fallout.

Third, try Arcanum on the PC if you haven't played it. I think you'll like it.
 
The story and atmosphere do pick up dramatically in P3, so I think it is still worth it to keep going a little further with the game. It will still be much more linear than a western RPG but as the game progresses, you will feel more drawn into having a purpose (as the protagonist) and identifying with the other characters. A very important part of the game is your relationship to others in the P3 world. I would say keep going until you have at least a high social link with a character you don't hate and see whether you have any interest in hanging out with them again. I think for almost everyone who likes the game, getting to know the other characters is one of the highlights of the game and the reason to keep playing. I personally am not a fan of the dungeon crawling but internalize the protagonist's reasons to keep going (after all, Tartarus isn't supposed to be enjoyable).

If you feel nothing at all, then you are a shell of a person (j/k) it definitely won't get any more fun.
 
[quote name='camoor'] I know I'm going to end up finishing Shadow Hearts Covenant, but I'm really starting to question why...[/quote]

I traded off SH:Covenant also. I liked the timing based combat, but storyline was not engaging to me and too nonsensical.

[quote name='keithp']Third, try Arcanum on the PC if you haven't played it. I think you'll like it.[/quote]

I've played it extensively and enjoyed it, but I'll never go back to it because the combat system is practically broken.

[quote name='fyrtoes'] They are number crunchers, much more so than any western RPG. No western RPG has the numerical rigor of Jrpgs.
its cultural i guess[/quote]

I would have to say that isn't true at all. In my opinion nearly ALL JRPGs calculate all these little numbers and say you do X damage blah blah blah but it's all PRE-determined values. You as the player/user have next to no ability to affect the damage output EXCEPT by grinding/leveling which raises your STATS in a predetermined manner as the designers chose.

Take Baldur's Gate series for instance. It's based off the AD&D ruleset. I'm not the biggest fan of the AD&D ruleset. But it's based off those RULES, you as the player/user know what the rules are. You have the ability to manipulate the numbers. You understand WHY there is a big difference between a longsword + 1 (+5 fire damage) and a longsword + 2. Fallout's system ALSO is much reverred (but definately, definately, not perfect) and it gives you a great range of manipulation of the number system.

In JRPGs, my experience is that you have no idea where these absurd numbers are coming from. They're all in the background, just whatever the developers wanted them to be. You buy the next pair of Mario Underpants because you're in the next level and you know you need the next powerful item to make the grind easier. Otherwise you won't beat Goomba Wizard #3.
 
I "digged" this thread.

What I find especially hilarious is that it took you 20 hours of your life to realize you didn't like what you were doing.

How many times did you burn your hand on something hot as a child?

On a more serious note, I agree with you about the annoying text in P3 and Dragon Quest VIII being kind of crappy.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']What I find especially hilarious is that it took you 20 hours of your life to realize you didn't like what you were doing. [/quote]

Yawn. Let's look at the logistics of this.

If Dragon Quest VIII is about a 60+ hour game 20 hours would be 1/3rd, correct?

These games take time to get rolling and it takes time to see if the game is ever going to "open" up or "reveal" itself to you. It's no different than watching 40 minutes of a 2 hour movie.

It's a moot point to be critical of someone having spent a lot of time with a game and ending up not liking it. Gaming is about squandering time. Entertainment is squandering time.

I was hoping to have some meaningful gaming discussion. Telling me that you can press Triangle to skip dialogue is like telling me I can skip the talking scenes on Shoot Em' Up dvd starring Clive Owen...
 
I would argue that if you don't like a game after the first hour it's worthless to continue, but to each his own.

You probably wouldn't be disappointed to the point of ranting if you didn't spend so much time on games you obviously dislike.

I wasn't trying to be critical really, I was just joking with you.
 
No harm done.

My hope is that someone will really defend some of the JRPGs they love and have some valid points. I've definitely spent time with these games, I don't regret the experience. I just know they're not as great as they're proclaimed to be.

My posts/thread is far from ranting. I haven't even made fun of the Dragon Ball Z lovers and the gratuitous, angsty, emo suicide animations in every P3 combat.
 
A good way to understand JRPGs is from the perspective of someone who enjoys both cartoons and video games.

To me P3 is like peanut butter and chocolate. I put the text on auto advance and watch an entertaining cartoon in between the awesome battles.

The dungeons are uninspired but the action-based field encounters before battles are a lot of fun to me. The battles move quickly and you can use a lot of strategy or experiment like I do.

What aspect do you want me to defend? Hell, I'll try defending DQ VIII if you want me to even though I dislike that game.
 
[quote name='ChernobylCow']

My hope is that someone will really defend some of the JRPGs they love and have some valid points. [/QUOTE]

Why? You've already said you don't enjoy them, so whatever points someone makes won't be valid to you. Or maybe you're hoping someone will inspire you to try the games again? But then you'll come back in a couple of days, weeks, whenever and rant some more I guess when you realize you still don't like them.
 
[quote name='keithp']Why? You've already said you don't enjoy them, so whatever points someone makes won't be valid to you. Or maybe you're hoping someone will inspire you to try the games again? But then you'll come back in a couple of days, weeks, whenever and rant some more I guess when you realize you still don't like them.[/quote]


You clearly don't know a cry for help when you see one.
 
If you want a serious discussion, then here you go. It sounds like you prefer games that allow you do define what you want to do in-game (ignore/kill NPCs to avoid conversation, etc.) and what kind of person your protagonist is. You'd rather the game let you advance no matter how you play it, but JRPGs are typically set up in a way that's closer to a story unfolding interactively, where character development fixed and you have less say in what the protagonist can do, leaving choice only to side quests or at a few key points to get different endings.

Ironically, P3 has much more choice than a typical JRPG because it's up to you to decide which personas to make and use, which bonuses you want to acquire via social links and other outside-dungeon activities, and most battles require more strategy rather than pure investment in leveling since every persona has different weaknesses and skills. Many people, including myself, think the story and dialogue are actually very well written as far as video games go. You might dislike it because no matter how well written it is, it doesn't allow you to change your character's motivations and won't change the game or let you play it in a different manner to the extent that things like Fallout or Deus Ex do. Then it's just a matter of subjective taste and perhaps you'd like more open JRPGs like Legend of Mana, which is about as sandbox a title as I can think of right now.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I would argue that if you don't like a game after the first hour it's worthless to continue, but to each his own.

You probably wouldn't be disappointed to the point of ranting if you didn't spend so much time on games you obviously dislike.

I wasn't trying to be critical really, I was just joking with you.[/quote]
And I would argue that if he said he only played P3 for one hour, you would say he didn't give the game "a chance."

I personally find gameplay in "Western RPGs" a lot more fun to play, where as I find the story in JRPGs a little more interesting.

That being said, I still need to play Persona 3 / 4.
 
Honestly if you don't like it nothing we will say will change your opinion. I mean you might as well say you don't like a movie because you can't kill a charachter in it you don't like.

The game tells a story and honestly its a more entertaining story then most of the western RPG's like Fallout 3, Oblivion, etc.

Yes its more structured and you don't have the same level of freedom, but the story is more entertaining to me, the charachters are much more likeable, and I honestly want to see what happens next.

Not to say games like Fallout 3 and Oblivion aren't good for their own reasons but in terms of story they don't measure anywhere near Persona 3/4.
 
[quote name='yukine']And I would argue that if he said he only played P3 for one hour, you would say he didn't give the game "a chance."
[/quote]

No. :)
 
If you want really unique game play, try the SaGa series. Almost anyone who can handel non-linear RPG can (potentially) enjoy Romancing SaGa, but if you are really truly "a patient gamer", then Unlimited SaGa is pure gold, IMHO.

Other than that I found Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter a pretty awesome and unique game.

Personally I wouldn't classify Nocturne as a dungeon crawler... for a very nicely done dungeon claw on the PS2, try The Nightmare of Druaga, I havn't had the time to play Baroque yet but it look promising also...
 
ChernobylCow, I have your answer and its name is Growlanser Generations. (Don't get Heritage of War - it's crap!) It contains two games which were originally for PS1 in Japan, so like Suikoden, it lacks a lot of the nonsensical and complex stuff modern JRPGs have. Also like Suikoden, the stories focus on larger-scale warfare, with your characters being pulled apart by feuding kingdoms, and the games are easily the most Western-like JRPGs with branching storylines, dialogue choices, and character affection ratings. Admittedly, character development is fairly weak since they're pretty one-dimensional characters, but the archetypes set by them play out well in battle (which is really fun, by the way) and other events.

Having said that, you'll need to look past its very anime aesthetics. The localization also suffers for being more light-hearted than it should be, as Working Designs (the guys who added Bill Clinton jokes in their translations) handled it, though many people like this type of humor.

It's kind of hard to find now, but Gamestop/EB has it for $20: http://www.ebgames.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=34039

P.S. The Goon rocks.
 
[quote name='Asgardian']If you want really unique game play, try the SaGa series. Almost anyone who can handel non-linear RPG can (potentially) enjoy Romancing SaGa, but if you are really truly "a patient gamer", then Unlimited SaGa is pure gold, IMHO.

Other than that I found Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter a pretty awesome and unique game.

Personally I wouldn't classify Nocturne as a dungeon crawler... for a very nicely done dungeon claw on the PS2, try The Nightmare of Druaga, I havn't had the time to play Baroque yet but it look promising also...[/QUOTE]

What, are you trying to torture the guy?
 
[quote name='whitereflection']ChernobylCow, I have your answer and its name is Growlanser Generations...[/quote]

Thank you for your well-thought out and descriptive post. It is very appreciated :applause::applause:.

I read a review on Growlanser Generations a while back and I was intrigued but I can't recall what made me say no (to adding it to my Goozex requests). I'll re-read a few and it seems like I can snag it off Goozex pretty easily. I like your comparisons to Suikoden you nailed right on the things that made me love S1&2. Of course the Suikoden series had 1 dimensional characters but with a game who has a selling point of having 100+ characters as its trademark you can't expect Garcia Marquez.

On a side note...I was just thinking how the Goon would make for a great Beat Em' Up game. Who doesn't love to punch some zombies?

But, yeah, I'll give GG a look.
 
[quote name='Asgardian']If you want really unique game play, try the SaGa series. Almost anyone who can handel non-linear RPG can (potentially) enjoy Romancing SaGa, but if you are really truly "a patient gamer", then Unlimited SaGa is pure gold, IMHO.

Other than that I found Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter a pretty awesome and unique game.

Personally I wouldn't classify Nocturne as a dungeon crawler... for a very nicely done dungeon claw on the PS2, try The Nightmare of Druaga, I havn't had the time to play Baroque yet but it look promising also...[/quote]

I can't believe someone actually SUGGESTED another human being play Unlimited Saga.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']Dragon Quarter was hot fire.[/quote]

[quote name='Brian9824']I can't believe someone actually SUGGESTED another human being play Unlimited Saga.[/quote]

Hmmm i still have both of these sealed in my back log. what would be the proper way to dispose of them?


[quote name='willardhaven']
Hell, I'll try defending DQ VIII if you want me to even though I dislike that game.[/quote]

Please Don't
 
Can someone tell me the difference in Person 3 and Person 3 FES? Seems like one is priced higher than the other.. but I'm unsure of the fundamental difference (if any).
 
P3 FES is the full original game, plus a 20-30 hour epilogue that takes place after the original game. It came out about 1 year after the original release.
 
Also Persona 3 FES contains the directors cut of the Original Persona 3 game (which i still have to play, I only played thru the non directors cut Persona 3)

The directors cut has some extras in it like a fusion weapon system and tweaked the game a bit. Persona 3 FES is a standalone game that takes place after Persona 3 and is basically pure dungeon crawler and it fleshes out the ending of Persona 3 a bit.
 
Wow, I had not seen this thread before, but anyone who suggests another person play unlimited saga should get an automatic nomination for Cag villain (and I liked saga frontier and only paid $2 for Unlimited saga). That said, it would be a great game for someone to do a giantbomb-esq video series playing through the game with commentary - I'd donate my copy for the cause if I can find it.
 
[quote name='happy']Wow, I had not seen this thread before, but anyone who suggests another person play unlimited saga should get an automatic nomination for Cag villain (and I liked saga frontier and only paid $2 for Unlimited saga). That said, it would be a great game for someone to do a giantbomb-esq video series playing through the game with commentary - I'd donate my copy for the cause if I can find it.[/quote]

To be honest, that Giant Bomb "Endurance Run" series is pretty boring and at times very annoying. Since they feel obligated to entertain the audience rather than just play through the game, they laugh and crack jokes when it totally isn't necessary -- and most of their jokes are childish and unfunny. It's really a cheap way to keep traffic on their site relatively high on a consistent basis because for whatever reason a lot of people are addicted to those videos. Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, on a completely different note, I'm having trouble getting into P3 FES. I played through Persona 4 first -- my first SMT game -- and it was a blast. Most people complain about the slow 3 hour intro with virtually no gameplay, but I was so hooked by the story and the characters that I didn't care.

Now playing P3, I'm wondeirng where that attachment is to the characters and story. I did do my research before buying the game, and I knew it was going to be one big grind through a single tower. Not really my cup of tea, but I thought the story and characters would ease the grind into the gameplay. But around five hours into the game, I'm grinding through the tower and I'm asking myself -- what's the point? Why am I even here? At least in P4 I knew I was trying to save someone from getting killed. So with no type of emotional attachment to the game, I don't feel inclined to play. I haven't touched a whole lot on the social linking, but I don't worry too much about that.

Anyway, hopefully some P3 vets here can respond to my criticism and perhaps convince me to get back into the game.
 
I actually think P3 has a better camera and controls, while both games are excellent. The dungeon is more fun if you complete the optional missions. It's really more of a personal thing, if you don't like it, you don't like it. Perhaps you should have started with 3?
 
I love the Endurance Run at Giantbomb, it alone made me interested in Persona 3/4. I find their jokes and commentary to be pretty hilarious in my opinion. And it's not like they are going out of their way to make stupid jokes... a lot of it is based on material the game is giving them, it's very MST3K... just not as good of course. No reason to take the game so seriously, as it sure doesn't take itself very serious.

Not having played Persona 4 yet (but basing this on the Endurance run...) I'd say that it would of probably of been better to play P3 before P4. Persona 4 just seems to have a lot more variety to it, and the characters are a bit more likable. Not to mention... you don't get tired in Persona 4? Damn that is a dream come true!
 
I liked some episodes of the Endurance Run (normally the short 15 minute ones), but the long ones seriously seem to drag. I haven't watched the more recent episodes, but it seems like a lot of the time they're just annoying. I can understand wanting to entertain the audience, but I found them obnoxious at times. With that said, I'm really wondering if they can finish through the game. They still have a long way to go. But then again, they're not actually playing in 15-30 minute bits everyday like they originally led you to believe; they're simply playing hours at a time and then breaking that up into segments to put on the site each day. It's pretty easy to tell when they can't tell what day of the week it is most of the time and they start off the next episode literally in the middle of the scene that ended the last episode.

Anyway, so far I can tell that P4 improved so many things from P3. Obviously the biggest thing is the ability to control all of your party members. I still can't get over the idea why they don't let you control all of your party members in P3 like any other JRPG. Also, managing equipment is a huge pain and something that could've easily been fixed; I hate having to go talk to each party member to change their equipment when it could've easily been done on the menu. What's worse, I can't let Yukari heal one person without healing the whole party. And, of course, the concept of one huge tower to tackle for the whole game is daunting and tedious.

So far, that's my biggest criticism of P3 so far in comparison to P4. I'm not bashing it too hard because I realize it is P4's predeccesor and it's only natural for it to have some annoying things for a player who played P4 first.
 
[quote name='McBain']Anyway, so far I can tell that P4 improved so many things from P3. Obviously the biggest thing is the ability to control all of your party members. I still can't get over the idea why they don't let you control all of your party members in P3 like any other JRPG.[/quote]
The AI is *mostly* solid, so it doesn't bother me much (playing it right now), but it does annoy me that one death, your own, means game over (fuck-you Mudoon/Hamaon :bomb:).

[quote name='McBain']Also, managing equipment is a huge pain and something that could've easily been fixed; I hate having to go talk to each party member to change their equipment when it could've easily been done on the menu.[/quote]
I agree with you there. It is needlessly tedious

[quote name='McBain']What's worse, I can't let Yukari heal one person without healing the whole party.
[/quote]
I have the opposite problem. When I set her to healing only, she'll often use Diarama on individual members when Mediarama is a better choice (we're all hurting damnit! Heal all of us.)
 
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