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Obama Care Could Be Deadly


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#5221 Msut77

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:24 PM

So healthcare should be more socialized?
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5222 UncleBob

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:56 PM

"Bottom line:
Universal health care funded through some form of a single payer-type system could save huge sums of money if and only if:
• The new system is uncharacteristically simple, not overlaid with complexities, extraneous issues and separate agendas;
• We are willing to give pink slips to tens of thousands of US workers;
• We implement an effective national health information sharing system;
• We scrap the present medical negligence tort system and create something that actually works;
• We accept some form of care rationing; and,
• We are prepared for a powerful backlash from numerous special interests.


Aside from the "Care Rationing" (which is inherent in any system) and, to some extent, the "national health information sharing system" (which I'm okay with to a degree...), every one of those sounds spectacular to me.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#5223 Msut77

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:04 AM

ego:

 

None of your links even begin to claim what you are implying they do, I doubt you even read them (or mine).

 

Also, there is no conceivable system that provides all the care anyone could want I am not engaging the word "rationing". Even an incredibly generous system would not pay for  heart transplant for a 98 year old with terminal cancer.

 

Remember the previous system and something you support turned down basic medical for people who couldn't afford it and led to tens of thousands of deaths per year.


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5224 egofed

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:32 PM

  1. The United Sates (U.S.) has the 3rd largest number of confirmed diabetes cases in the world: 17.9M. Undiagnosed cases add another 5.7M.
    www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/diabetes-statistics/
  2. 1 in 10 U.S. adults has type 2 diabetes.
    www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2010/r101022.html
  3. 1 in 400 to 600 children and adolescents in U.S. have type 1 diabetes.
    www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/diabetes-statistics/
  4. 1.6 million new cases of diabetes are diagnosed in the U.S. each year.
    www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/diabetes-statistics/
  5. The cost of diabetes in the U.S. is $220 billion a year and rising.
    www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/diabetes-statistics/
  6. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, or CDC, projects that if trends continue, 1 in 3 Americans will have diabetes by 2050.
    www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2010/r101022.html
  7. UnitedHealth Group projects that half of Americans could have diabetes or prediabetes by 2020, costing $3.35 trillion over the next decade.
    www.unitedhealthgroup.com/newsroom/news.aspx?id=36df663f-f24d-443f-9250-9dfdc97cedc5

Obesity became a global concern as it took the shape of an epidemic in most developed countries. According to the latest OECD report, the obesity epidemic has slowed down in several countries since 2009. However, in the top five countries mentioned here, the disease continues to grow.

The survey projects that women in these countries are more often obese than men, but male obesity rates have surged higher than female rates in most of these countries.

Interestingly, obesity in countries such as Korea (where obesity rates have stabilised at 3-4 percent), Switzerland (7-8 percent), Italy (8-9%), has successfully come to a halt for the past ten years.

1: The United States

 

So the data showing we are number 1 in obesity and number 3 in diabetes with growing rates doesn't support my hypothesis that we are very unhealthy people versus the world?

 

The flawed system we had before allowed for citizen's to choose the level of care and coverage that they wanted, as long as they could afford it. A socialized system has the gov't dictating what is covered and allowed, even though they tax for services throughout your life. Someone stated that the solutions to our problems should always be sought by asking, "does this allow more freedom or less freedom?" Unfortunately, we seem to be breeding stupider, more selfish generations by the minute, and they are more than willing to exchange freedom and independence for gov't handouts and control. Maybe most people can't handle true freedom anymore and need a nanny state to instruct and guide them. It just seems like a sad situation to acknowledge.

 

What tax rate would we have to go to to support a socialized healthcare system? Please go back through my posts and you will see that I acknowledge the weakness of our pre ACA system several times. I also acknowledge that socialized healthcare may be a better option. What I can not agree with is the gov't forcing citizens to buy a product from a private industry like the ACA does. That sets a very dangerous precedent.

 

I also disagree with you that our old system "turned down basic medical for people who couldn't afford it and led to tens of thousands of deaths per year." Hospitals are required by law to treat life threatening injuries regardless of payment. Please explain in more detail what you meant.

 

Did you have a chance to find any of that "better outcomes" data yet?



#5225 Rasen

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:50 PM

 

I also disagree with you that our old system "turned down basic medical for people who couldn't afford it and led to tens of thousands of deaths per year." Hospitals are required by law to treat life threatening injuries regardless of payment. Please explain in more detail what you meant.

 

 

I believe, and I could be wrong, that when he said the old system, he was referring to the insurance companies, and not the hospitals in particular. Part of the old complaints about them were that if you had a pre-existing condition of some sort, you couldn't get insurance at all. 

 

As for the hospitals:

1. I think it's only hospitals that accept federal money that are required

2. We can die from things other than life-threatening injuries. I don't believe emergency rooms can or will treat cancer, for instance.

 

Only if you're lucky enough to have insurance before you get diagnosed, and have a good plan, will you be able to get coverage (pre-ACA). Once you get diagnosed, no company would sell you a policy, and unless you also happened to be a millionaire, it's almost a guarantee the cost of treatments would be prohibitive.



#5226 Msut77

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 05:34 PM

 

So the data showing we are number 1 in obesity and number 3 in diabetes with growing rates doesn't support my hypothesis that we are very unhealthy people versus the world?

 

 

Math and Logic dont support what you are saying.

 

1) We have a problem in America with obesity and diabetes 2) We spend 2.5 times the average as OECD countries on healthcare.

 

Your links arent claiming we have 2.5 times  the obesity or diabetes of other countries that spend that much less than us who cover every person.

 

You are focusing on these things and ignoring (im saying intentionally) outsized administration costs and that many procedures not related to obesity cost so much.

 

http://www.washingto...-are-ludicrous/

 

http://www.washingto...98_story_1.html


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5227 Msut77

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 10:47 PM

not really a lot going on here.


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5228 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 11:57 PM

Well at least Obamacare is still bad. So Republicans got that going for them. 



#5229 IRHari

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:57 AM

Yay!  People can't get health insurance!


"People the world over have always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power." -Bill Clinton

#5230 Purple Flames

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:10 AM

It's amazing what can happen once you work the kinks out. Now let's sit back and wait for the right to puke up more anecdotal evidence that Obamacare is a complete and total failure: http://www.washingto...all-of-october/

 

For the record I'd much prefer single-payer or outright socialized healthcare, but this is a start.



#5231 Dr Mario Kart

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:44 AM

It's amazing what can happen once you work the kinks out. Now let's sit back and wait for the right to puke up more anecdotal evidence that Obamacare is a complete and total failure: http://www.washingto...all-of-october/

 

For the record I'd much prefer single-payer or outright socialized healthcare, but this is a start.

I guess conservatives that were faking outrage at people not being able to sign up despite that they dont even want people to have to sign up can go back to just complaining that people have to sign up.

 

I think the bottom line, in a weird bizarro world way, is that the conservatives are in a way correct.  ACA will fail - because a private, for profit health insurance system has to fail, therefore ACA will fail.  There is no other alternative.  Whether it is because single payer in Vermont displaces the current system or because it just outright collapses is irrelevant.  

 

I will be doing my part to sink the system.  I've got so many procedures lined up for Jan 1+ that it would make your head spin.  Actually having insurance makes me feel like a conservative.  I've got mine, so Fuck you.  It feels kinda good.  



#5232 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 01:04 AM

So Obamacare is not bad?



#5233 Jruth

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 07:51 AM

Some real Fuckwads in the Government. I can't see how Liberals can dispute that. I mean you felt this 101 Dalmatians lady was gonna bring in the best of Silicon Valley? Fuck no because they're idiots and they are not like us, especially us, frequenters of a gaming message board.


Haven't you figured it out yet fanboys? Your mommy can't afford both consoles! Be grateful with what you got and shut the Fuck up.

 

 

                                                                                                                                             - starving African bro

 


#5234 Purple Flames

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 10:14 PM

So Obamacare is not bad?

 

It's better than the current GOP plan of "If you're sick, go bankrupt or die quickly."



#5235 dohdough

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 12:36 AM

My premiums went up $71.76 for 2014. That's a whopping $1.38 a week and 6% increase! Thanks Obummer! :rofl:
dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#5236 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 01:44 AM

It's better than the current GOP plan of "If you're sick, go bankrupt or die quickly."

Well then I guess its a good thing I prefer a libertarian plan. 



#5237 Msut77

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:40 PM

You prefer a non existent plan that would presumably still leave sick people to die?


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5238 Dr Mario Kart

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 08:59 PM

They die without inflicting any costs on anyone else against their will, so its all good.



#5239 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 01:40 AM

You prefer a non existent plan that would presumably still leave sick people to die?

How about free market reforms in which insurance is actually used for emergencies. You have a problem with that? 



#5240 Msut77

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:57 AM

Show specifics ​and examples. I have seen this farce before.


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5241 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 03:45 PM

Oh I linked websites (Not Right Sided) which talked about your type of healthcare while you on the other hand only commented. Debate is a two way street, if you can't handle it on your side then kindly escort yourself out. 



#5242 Msut77

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:04 PM

You showed a country with a working "libretarian" healthcare plan that covered every person?

 

Must have been a different thread.


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5243 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:23 PM

I showed you that your healthcare in socialist countries does not work. It is in inefficient and creates a huge burden for the people, and the economy. Many people actually suffer within this type of system. Now try to actually debunk the things I have been saying over and over again instead of leaving stupid little comments. They just make you look thick. 



#5244 Msut77

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 10:28 PM

I dont know if you actually believe what you are typing.

 

These "socialist countries" have healthcare systems that spend less than us to cover everyone.

 

They are more efficient and they spend less overall.

 

If this is what you think you have been "arguing" all this time then I see the problem.

 

BTW I considering this moving the goalposts, because it went from "I have an awesome plan" to "socialism sucks" with no thought in between.


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5245 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 11:21 PM

You do realize we had this exact conversation before. Yes they spend less, yet it does not mean they are efficient in general even though they might be "better" than what we have today. Why do you keep stating this over and over again just baffles me. Try actually arguing why this system will be the best possible approach when it comes to dealing with healthcare.

 

Frankly I used to be a socialist and now realize its a great system on paper only. In reality, it is shit. 



#5246 Msut77

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:29 AM

I don't recall you showing anything to back up what you say. You aren't even bothering to define terms.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5247 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 02:51 AM

Define terms? Yeah your gonna need to explain to me what you mean by that.

 

I am pretty sure I have linked several sources before and maybe they just werent targeted at you so here you go. 

 

France:

http://online.wsj.co...958049241511735

 

Obamacare:

http://www.huffingto..._n_2956986.html

 

Sweden:

http://www.thelocal....-in-the-nordics

 

Germany:

http://www.bloomberg...ug-deficit.html

 

Less than 2 minutes of googling. 



#5248 Msut77

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:09 AM

Lets start with efficency, other countries cover everyone and spend less than us. How is that not more efficient?

 

Your articles (2 minutes to google apparently left you no time to read them) do not state what you keep saying about them in comparison to the US, even the "france" one.

 

P1-AR008A_FRHEA_NS_20090806190814.gif


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#5249 mrsilkunderwear

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:30 AM

Lets start with efficency, other countries cover everyone and spend less than us. How is that not more efficient?

 

Your articles (2 minutes to google apparently left you no time to read them) do not state what you keep saying about them in comparison to the US, even the "france" one.

 

P1-AR008A_FRHEA_NS_20090806190814.gif

Ok dude, I am gonna repeat this one more time. I NEVER said US is more efficient when it comes to healthcare compared to other countries. What I have been trying to explain to you is that it is an awful system, it is inefficient and not the best the solution.  

 

I said there is a huge deficit and here you go. Excerpt from the article.   

 

 

The problem is that Assurance Maladie has been in the red since 1989. This year the annual shortfall is expected to reach €9.4 billion ($13.5 billion), and €15 billion in 2010, or roughly 10% of its budget.

 

Obamacare will increase the premiums. I have been saying that since forever. 

 

 

Insurance companies will have to pay out an average of 32 percent more for medical claims on individual health policies under President Barack Obama's overhaul, the nation's leading group of financial risk analysts has estimated.

 

Long wait times..

 

 

"The target for maximum wait in Sweden to see your primary care doctor (no more than seven days) is underachieved only by Portugal, where the corresponding figure is 15 days," the report stated.
 
Such were the waiting times, that they pulled Sweden down the European ranking despite having technically advanced healthcare at its disposal.
 
More waste

 

The measure is part of an overhaul of health care intended to plug an 11-billion euro ($13.8 billion) deficit in the public health-insurance system in 2011.
 

Now... Did you read the articles or anything I have said for that matter? 



#5250 Msut77

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:49 AM

One of us is having issues with reading comprehension. It isn't me. No one has claimed other systems are perfect. If a country has a deficit but still spends less than us you don't have a point.


wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell