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Obama Care Could Be Deadly


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#31 paddlefoot

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:43 PM

there are two problems with "just buy it or get it through your employer"

(1) HMOs are ripping your employer off if they aren't ripping you off. their profit margins are absolutely ridiculous, and the little that they aren't giving their CEOs are going to (a) lobbying efforts to keep their cartel legal & protected and (b) to the executives that are best able to deny healthcare to their policy holders (read: keep their profit margins astronomical)

(2) preexisting conditions and accidents. the need for healthcare reform isn't about getting allergy pills or treated for the flu or whatever, it's about falling off your roof or getting cancer. peoples lives, not only the sick but their family as well, get completely ruined due to uninsured accidents or conditions that were diagnosed when uninsured. you're talking millions of dollars in some situations, and of course you can't get insurance for it after-the-fact, so you're talking about spending the rest of your life in debt and dying with debt to give to your children and grandchildren.


though i'm a bit biased since i have extensive experience with issue #2... most people will never really know how dire reform really is. luckily, we'll get it soon regardless.


I realize this is a huge issue with your sister's condition.

Koggit, do you mind if I ask why your parents don't have jobs that provide healthcare? Is it just something they took for granted until it was too late?

#32 paddlefoot

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:45 PM

Also, National Geographic had an article recently about how the doctor supply in the U.S. is growing (and declining in other nations) because doctors from all over usually end up deciding to come here to practice. Hence the increase in foreign doctors.
Not to mention hospitals have been cutting staff due to being ripped off by Insurance Co.'s and not being to able support payroll.
With healthcare reform there is a chance the tax funded dollars would increase money to support more staffing. Increasing doctor to pop. ratio even more.
Obama has also made it clear no one will force you to use this healthcare. You can stay private.



Does anyone know how much we would save if malpractice insurance wasn't so high? Malpractice insurance costs are fucking insane!!!!

Would also help if drug companies didn't spend billions of dollars on advertising.

#33 HowStern

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:49 PM

I'm not going to answer for Koggit because I obviously have no clue but just in general 1) It's pretty tough to find a job right now of any kind. 2)It's always been pretty tough to find a job that offers a reasonably priced insurance 3)A lot of the jobs available right now aren't the type to offer insurance at all.

Not to mention, you asked about his parents, a good thing to think about is what about when the time comes when it's up to his sister to pay her own insurance because their parents have passed on. What is she supposed to do then without the reform we need?
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#34 paddlefoot

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:03 AM

I'm not going to answer for Koggit because I obviously have no clue but just in general 1) It's pretty tough to find a job right now of any kind. 2)It's always been pretty tough to find a job that offers a reasonably priced insurance 3)A lot of the jobs available right now aren't the type to offer insurance at all.

Not to mention, you asked about his parents, a good thing to think about is what about when the time comes when it's up to his sister to pay her own insurance because their parents have passed on. What is she supposed to do then without the reform we need?


That's why the question was directed at Koggit. He has spoken about the illness before, I meant no disrespect.

#35 mykevermin

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:48 AM

Bottom line is that the government rarely does anything right/well. If they play a larger role in healthcare, my educated guess is that healthcare for most will go down the toilet.


That's not a "bottom line," that's a thoughtless, vapid, uninformed talking point you've had beaten into your brain so much that you think it's the unquestionable truth.

Let's privatize it all, shall we? After all, look at these following bastions of market integrity!
AIG
Lehman Brothers
The entire fucking airline industry for this decade
Citibank
Bank of American
Every other bank ever except Chase Manhattan
General Motors
Chrysler
Ford

YES! YES! YES! LET THE FREE MARKET REIGN SUPREME! KEEP GOVERNMENT OUT!

Put money back in people's hands! Let them keep their money and invest it in the stock market in a "medical savings account!" It's a brand new, novel idea!

Imagine how much I'd have to help pay for a medical emergency today if I had invested $5000.00 in the market! I'd have almost $2600! Fucking incredible. VIVA LA CAPITALISM!

Either get a job and get premium healthcare, or prove that you are disabled & cannot work and get Medicaid/Medicare. Problem solved, and while the current system has problems its much better than universal healthcare.


The devil that you know is more desirable than the devil that you have a built-in bias against, no?
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#36 mykevermin

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:50 AM

In before princess pissy-pants gets mad because i said a mean thing about him.
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#37 Jimbo Slice

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 01:38 AM

That's not a "bottom line," that's a thoughtless, vapid, uninformed talking point you've had beaten into your brain so much that you think it's the unquestionable truth.

Let's privatize it all, shall we? After all, look at these following bastions of market integrity!
AIG
Lehman Brothers
The entire fucking airline industry for this decade
Citibank
Bank of American
Every other bank ever except Chase Manhattan
General Motors
Chrysler
Ford

YES! YES! YES! LET THE FREE MARKET REIGN SUPREME! KEEP GOVERNMENT OUT!

Put money back in people's hands! Let them keep their money and invest it in the stock market in a "medical savings account!" It's a brand new, novel idea!

Imagine how much I'd have to help pay for a medical emergency today if I had invested $5000.00 in the market! I'd have almost $2600! Fucking incredible. VIVA LA CAPITALISM!



The devil that you know is more desirable than the devil that you have a built-in bias against, no?


Excellent post. Exactly how I feel.

#38 Koggit

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:13 AM

I realize this is a huge issue with your sister's condition.

Koggit, do you mind if I ask why your parents don't have jobs that provide healthcare? Is it just something they took for granted until it was too late?


we had healthcare when my sister was diagnosed, but my stepdad was laid off and has been unable to go back to work for a couple different reasons. my sister's on disability and gets a little federal help as it is, but it's not enough.

#39 JolietJake

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:49 AM

What do you want me to say to answer his question? That I personally believe our healthcare system is in better shape then Britain's and base it on a study that is biased in America's favor in relation to the fact it only considers the patient to doctor ratio rather than the doctor to population ratio?

Ugh, gotta stop feeding the trolls...:roll:

I enjoy the videos and puns posted by Joliet Jake. I think he's almost as funny as my favorite comedian, Dane Cook. Now excuse me while I listen to Fallout Boy's music on their myspace page.


#40 JolietJake

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:51 AM

As someone without any sort of insurance, i'd welcome any sort of plan which provided me some sort of coverage, no matter how good or bad it may be.

One thing i do wonder about though. If we had a federal free health care program, how many companies would still provide coverage as a company benefit?

I enjoy the videos and puns posted by Joliet Jake. I think he's almost as funny as my favorite comedian, Dane Cook. Now excuse me while I listen to Fallout Boy's music on their myspace page.


#41 paddlefoot

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:56 AM

we had healthcare when my sister was diagnosed, but my stepdad was laid off and has been unable to go back to work for a couple different reasons. my sister's on disability and gets a little federal help as it is, but it's not enough.


Ah, didn't know about the lay off part of the story. It is bullshit when someone gets laid off while their healthcare is covering a serious medical condition, especially when a child is receiving care.

#42 Paco

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 07:32 AM

I love the healthcare industry. It's so fucking fantastic. Once when I broke my arm, I didn't go to the doctor for nearly a week and I did this because I knew my parents didn't have money to pay for it. They eventually took me because I was having trouble walking with how much my arm hurt, I was unable to move without pain and everything just plain blew. When I went to the doctor, they asked how the hell was I able to ignore it for almost a week. They gave me painkillers and instructed me not to move the arm much if I could help it.

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#43 VioletArrows

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 07:55 AM

Can't even begin to froth at how much I hate American healthcare. Shitty rudimentary cancer care's what killed my mother in 6 months, and since PCOS isn't immediately fatal, no one gives a shit about my condition or even knows what it is. All doctors know is to prescribe drugs that cause cancer to prevent cancer and tell me to starve myself, and all insurance companies know is that it's genetic so I can go piss off.

So whatever the Fuck systems we have now are already deadly OP, take that shit-stirring FUD headline somewhere else.
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#44 tivo

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 08:20 AM

Can we also get universal water, electricity, heating, and food?

Its my right as an American to get coverage of some of these things.

#45 irideabike

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:20 PM

My neighbor has a Cadillac, I want my Cadillac.

#46 Msut77

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:24 PM

The OP mysteriously vanished and those in agreement with him have done nothing but make a bunch of non responses since they are incapable of arguing anything.

Just another day...

#47 irideabike

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:31 PM

Yes, it is a very big mystery how he vanished. He should be living on CAG.

#48 tivo

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 03:48 PM

We've talked about the pros and cons of universal health care numerous times. Another issue like the one in the OP doesn't sway anybody because people place greater value into the opinions of those with like-minded views.

#49 mykevermin

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 04:05 PM

The issue with "discussing the pros and cons" is that it's uninformed on one end.

Recognizing that one system, that we live under, has substantial and significant flaws and problems, and refusing to even attempt *movement* towards another system, is absurd.

"I'm standing on hot coals, but I don't wanna move because I heard that the coals are even hotter over there in that place where I can't see and have never placed my feet."

It's not that a more universal system is better, it's that what we have is fucked, and we ought to at least consider something better.

And, if you think it *is* "universal coverage," and/or your "Obama the socialist" radar goes off here, you're just a reactionary fuckwit. Really. Wasn't more than 12 months ago where Obama and Clinton fought over one of the very, very, very few issues they disagreed on - health coverage. Obama's plan and proposal is much more centrist and, to my own disgust, is something that doesn't assassinate the private health insurance industry in the process.

Obama makes private industry take pause, but you're simply not using your fucking noggin if you think it's "universal coverage." A two-piece bathing suit covers more than Obama's plan.
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#50 depascal22

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 04:17 PM

One fix to the system could be to make HMO's run as non-profits. Many claims are denied so the bottom line can be maintained. I understand that pharmaceutical and medical device companies use profits to research new products that will "help" more people but what do HMO's use their profits for? Other than paying statisticians to make new formulas that deny more people for pre-existing conditions or what not.

EDIT -- I know it's awfully socialist of me to question an individual corporation's motives and business practices but really what do they do with the money?

#51 soulvengeance

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 04:27 PM

Just an interesting little story:
http://www.nytimes.c....html?th&emc=th

Now back to everyone yelling at each other.:)
mytradelist:
http://www.cheapassg...864#post2614864

Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.


#52 depascal22

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 04:33 PM

Infant mortality rate is 40% higher in the US compared to Canada.....

There should be another study about the toll that's created by the humongous medical bills on this side of the border. How many families have been broken up because of money issues caused by medical bills? How many bankrupticies? All this is the name of free market capitalism?

#53 tivo

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:02 PM

The issue with "discussing the pros and cons" is that it's uninformed on one end.


I agree, Michael Moore doesn't know shit- especially about good health. On the other hand there are doctors and specialized surgeons who have been practicing medicine for 40 yrs and have been to Canada and England with first hand knowledge/experience who oppose the transition of 300+million Americans into more of a state run operation.

Recognizing that one system, that we live under, has substantial and significant flaws and problems, and refusing to even attempt *movement* towards another system, is absurd.

It's not that a more universal system is better, it's that what we have is fucked, and we ought to at least consider something better.


Public schools, US mail, VA hospitals, etc. are all run by the gov. and look at their quality- not nearly as good as private. This is because when the businessman "intends only his own gain" that he contributes- via the process of competition- to promote the social good "more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."

Sorry myke, but "The peace and order of society is of more importance than even the relief of the miserable."

#54 Jimbo Slice

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:06 PM

I just don't understand how people, as American citizens, are okay with the fact that there are people suffering because they don't have healthcare.

I'm sick of the damn "get a job" line too, because do you understand how hard that is in this economy right now?

#55 soulvengeance

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:17 PM

I agree, Michael Moore doesn't know shit- especially about good health. On the other hand there are doctors and specialized surgeons who have been practicing medicine for 40 yrs and have been to Canada and England with first hand knowledge/experience who oppose the transition of 300+million Americans into more of a state run operation.



Public schools, US mail, VA hospitals, etc. are all run by the gov. and look at their quality- not nearly as good as private. This is because when the businessman "intends only his own gain" that he contributes- via the process of competition- to promote the social good "more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."

Sorry myke, but "The peace and order of society is of more importance than even the relief of the miserable."


Of course they don't want it, more then likely their salaries will dramatically decrease. I dunno, I don't think basic healthcare is something that can be run as a "for profit" type of operation, and yes, I agree that for the most part private schools are better, but that's probably because more affluent people can afford it. I'm sure you'll paint that as the traditional "survival of the fittest" argument.
mytradelist:
http://www.cheapassg...864#post2614864

Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.


#56 Snake2715

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:32 PM

So you prefer the current system where some people get no care at all? I'm not saying that government controlled care is great, but surely you don't like the current system.


Wrong not happening. Medicaid is great, If its an ER no hospital can turn you down.

This is hogwash.
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#57 Snake2715

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:34 PM

Well, I don't disagree that a full on socialized healthcare system probably won't work, but I think the public/private mix might be the answer though. I mean, I know people don't want the government to make the decision for you, but if your under an HMO, someone still has to approve you to get certain things done anyway. This guy's paycheck is probably reliant on if you get the operation or not, so would you rather have that instead?



HMO 's are not the primary option any longer, its mostly PPO's now.

Yes regional HMO's do exist, but they are not the primary option any longer.
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#58 Snake2715

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:37 PM

(2) preexisting conditions and accidents. the need for healthcare reform isn't about getting allergy pills or treated for the flu or whatever, it's about falling off your roof or getting cancer. peoples lives, not only the sick but their family as well, get completely ruined due to uninsured accidents or conditions that were diagnosed when uninsured. you're talking millions of dollars in some situations, and of course you can't get insurance for it after-the-fact, so you're talking about spending the rest of your life in debt and dying with debt to give to your children and grandchildren.


though i'm a bit biased since i have extensive experience with issue #2... most people will never really know how dire reform really is. luckily, we'll get it soon regardless.


What state are you in? PRE X is not always an issue regardless if you had coverage or not. it has to be longer than 62 days without coverage, and then depending on where you are there are still options to get pre x waived... did you contact any local insurance agents, or just carriers direct?
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#59 Snake2715

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:43 PM

This is BS. Have you had to go to the ER anytime recently? The wait times are insane. Know why? Because that's where everyone who doesn't have insurance goes for every teency tiny little thing because it's free. If these people had insurance it would clear wait times up for the real emergencies.
We don't have a crappy doctor to patient ratio. We have one of the best in the world.
Know who has better than us? Cuba. Want to go there for treatment? Because I don't.


Do you know how insurance networks get their contracts with doctors and insurance carriers, and finally insured people?

The have preset negotiated rates for certain services, and the doctor "writes off" the difference... Do you like Walmart? They are the largest retailer in the world and they demand lower prices of anyone wanting to sell products in their outlets.... what will happen when the government controls the pay for these things. As it sits now doctors can decide on their own if they accept the write offs, in order to fill their chairs with the insureds on network X or Network Y, or both. They can also choose not to join any network and then just balance bill, etc.

If the goverment controls the write offs will the doctors continue to practice here? Will we have cutting edge science and training going on for a field that has a potentially capped salary? No it will slowly reverse and doctors, pharmacy companies, etc will all not push as hard since they do not get paid more regardless.

You make absolutely no sense in your logic.
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#60 Msut77

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:45 PM

Quadruple post and all of it piss poor.