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Obama Care Could Be Deadly


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#121 HowStern

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 05:16 PM

How am I supposed to know what you mean with your crazy moon language? ;)

Let me rephrase my initial query: Why does Japan have a smaller percentage of the population that go into the medical field?


I don't see anything to suggest they do have a smaller percentage who enter the medical field. One guess is they may have a higher population of children/minors than us who simply aren't able to do so. Since the minors are only eligible to be considered patients the patient:doctor ratio goes down. Or the opposite, since they have such a long life expectancy, there are too many elderly.

edit:

Also the dec 2008 issue of Nat. Geo. had a good article about doctor migration and I was actually able to find it on their website.
http://ngm.nationalg.../follow-up-text

It also states the UK, which has the NHS, has the highest percentage of doctors with an increasing amount of doctors going there to practice from abroad.

Edited by HowStern, 14 June 2009 - 06:01 PM.

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#122 rmb

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 05:18 PM

No, i have a job, i'm just not provided medical insurance. I work at my college and am not allowed enough hours to get medical insurance.

Simple solution, move to Minnesota. Not really, but here in your situation you would most likely qualify for Mncare which you pay based on income.

#123 UncleBob

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 06:44 PM

I know, it was just my way of emphasizing what a dick bag bob is.


Is this how Msut always is? When he disagrees but cannot come up with any thing to say, he resorts to name calling?

And they say "right wing" talk radio is all about the hate speech.

I don't see anything to suggest they do have a smaller percentage who enter the medical field. One guess is they may have a higher population of children/minors than us who simply aren't able to do so. Since the minors are only eligible to be considered patients the patient:doctor ratio goes down. Or the opposite, since they have such a long life expectancy, there are too many elderly.


If they have a worse doctor to patient ratio, then that means fewer doctors per general population - meaning there are less people who are going out for that particular field of study (although, I guess just because they aren't becoming "doctors", it doesn't preclude them from looking into other fields of medical study).

More minors and elderly could be a good reason. I wonder what their percentages are compared to our percentages of age groups...
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#124 Koggit

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 07:43 PM

i don't understand why a high doctor-to-patient ratio and high pay for those doctors is being discussed as desirable. the goal is to spend much less on care, which can be obtained three ways: fewer medical professionals, lower paid medical professionals, lower paid HMOs. none of which is inherently bad and cannot be used to hypothesize the effect on quality of care.

http://en.wikipedia....h_care_spending

#125 UncleBob

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 07:54 PM

i don't understand why a high doctor-to-patient ratio and high pay for those doctors is being discussed as desirable.


Who said anything about high pay for doctors? I wasn't aware that was ever mentioned.

High Doctor-to-patient ratio is a bad thing. That's what we were discussing as one of the flaws of the Japanese system. I'm wondering why Japan has a lower percentage of doctors vs population.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#126 Koggit

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 08:21 PM

High Doctor-to-patient ratio is a bad thing.

one of the flaws of the Japanese system . . . Japan has a lower percentage of doctors vs population.


you're contradicting yourself, i don't even know what you're trying to say now. proofread and fix it.

you chimed in with the ambiguous "I wonder why Japan has less doctors than the US...."

which i rationally assumed was your snide way of saying less pay results in fewer people wanting to be doctors, which you insinuated is a bad thing. either state your point or gtfo this isn't a topic for games.

#127 Msut77

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 08:30 PM

Is this how Msut always is?


I have never suffered fools lightly so yeah.

When he disagrees but cannot come up with any thing to say, he resorts to name calling?


Is that what you call it? I am not the one having trouble arguing my position, meanwhile the clown car keeps pouring out posters comparing healthcare to luxury items like a Cadillac or claiming we can't afford a system like other countries have even though we already spend more than they do.

Edited by Msut77, 14 June 2009 - 08:43 PM.


#128 Panda Wizardry

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 02:27 AM

^Completely disagree. I'd rather die in the hands of people who tried than by the hands of idiots who ignored me.

I, mean, unless what you are talking about is a regular thing but it sounds like a freak incident that happens sometimes. You aren't giving me any links or anything to see what you're talking about.

But, also, like I said Japan ha sa lot less doctors than us. So, they are going to have a harder time treating people. Whereas the links I gave you show people just plain being ignored despite us having the resources.

OK, I've got lots of links for you.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4
Link 5

The last one has this tidbit:

More than 14,000 patients were refused admittance by Japanese hospitals in 2007. One woman with respiratory problems was refused 49 times by hospitals.


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#129 HowStern

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 03:32 AM

The first link is just a malpractice suit. We have that here all the time.
The rest of the links are definitely from a shortage of doctors though.

But I provided 2 links that were equally awful that happened here and found those in under a minute I'm sure another minute or two would drag up a few more.

But Japan definitely has a shortage of doctors, no doubt.
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#130 Snake2715

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 04:20 AM

for my sis with chiari, they only cover pain meds (and give $500/mo disability).. they don't cover stuff like spinal decompression surgery ($300,000) or the repair of that hardware when it breaks ($65,000), both of which she's already needed and she's only 25..


The law says 18 months of pre x. What state are you in? I suspect there is a guaranteed issue carrier (Blue Cross) that you can get with and then in 18 months you will have pre x waived. Whether or not those carriers will pay the services you want or need is another story.

Again what state are you or her resident in?
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#131 Koggit

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 04:27 AM

The law says 18 months of pre x. What state are you in? I suspect there is a guaranteed issue carrier (Blue Cross) that you can get with and then in 18 months you will have pre x waived. Whether or not those carriers will pay the services you want or need is another story.

Again what state are you or her resident in?

louisiana, and as i mentioned, we were insured when she was diagnosed

#132 UncleBob

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 04:50 AM

you're contradicting yourself, i don't even know what you're trying to say now. proofread and fix it.

you chimed in with the ambiguous "I wonder why Japan has less doctors than the US...."

which i rationally assumed was your snide way of saying less pay results in fewer people wanting to be doctors, which you insinuated is a bad thing. either state your point or gtfo this isn't a topic for games.


I do apologize, I obviously meant to say that less doctors for more people is a bad thing and I'm wondering why Japan does have less doctors per patients than the US. Any useful ideas?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#133 Msut77

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 05:03 AM

I do apologize, I obviously meant to say that less doctors for more people is a bad thing and I'm wondering why Japan does have less doctors per patients than the US. Any useful ideas?


teh googles, they do something.

http://www.oecd.org/...51/38979974.pdf

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#134 UncleBob

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 05:15 AM

The relatively low number of doctors per capita in Japan is due at least partly to government policies fixing limits on the number of new entrants in medical schools.


Nice link - very interesting (something I want to comment on in a second) - but this is half the answer (well, less than half when you consider the "at least partly" phrase). Why is the government putting limits on the quantity of medical students? Seems weird.

The remarkable gains in longevity in Japan in recent decades have been driven notably by falling death rates from heart diseases, which are the lowest now of all OECD countries, for
both males and females.
[...]
Obesity rates have increased in recent decades in nearly all OECD countries, although there remain notable differences across countries. The prevalence of obesity among adults varies from a low of [...] 3.9% in Japan in 2005, to a high of 34.3% in the United States in 2006.


One of the things that gets thrown out about the Japanese health care system is that their citizens have a longer life expectancy. It would appear (according to this one article, at least) this is largely due in part to less deaths from heart disease. Obesity, one of the leading causes of heart disease is obviously a lot smaller of a problem in Japan than it is here.

Perhaps the key to longer life expectancy is less about a universal health solution than it is about less "us"?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#135 rmb

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 05:22 AM

Obesity, one of the leading causes of heart disease is obviously a lot smaller of a problem in Japan than it is here.

Perhaps the key to longer life expectancy is less about a universal health solution than it is about less "us"?

:applause: Would have to agree with that observation!

#136 Trakan

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 08:29 AM

I understand this is the VS forum, but Msut, you can't be throwin' around insults like that.

#137 HowStern

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 02:26 PM

One of the things that gets thrown out about the Japanese health care system is that their citizens have a longer life expectancy. It would appear (according to this one article, at least) this is largely due in part to less deaths from heart disease. Obesity, one of the leading causes of heart disease is obviously a lot smaller of a problem in Japan than it is here.

Perhaps the key to longer life expectancy is less about a universal health solution than it is about less "us"?



check this out, though. Maybe if our healthcare system did something as simple as this lol.
http://www.nytimes.c...asia/13fat.html
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#138 UncleBob

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 03:44 PM

check this out, though. Maybe if our healthcare system did something as simple as this lol.
http://www.nytimes.c...asia/13fat.html


Considering that here, patients file complaints when a doctor tells them that they are obese, I could see how well that type of program would go over. ;)
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#139 HowStern

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 03:55 PM

^lol exactly. Which is precisely why our costs are through the roof and reform is needed.
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#140 JolietJake

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 03:58 PM

Alright, i get what appears to be an adult and child, but why the hell si the dog involved?:lol:

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#141 UncleBob

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 04:00 PM

Agreed - but we ('we' in the generalized sense, as in "we Americans") are going to have to see a major reform in our lifestyles and attitudes before any kind of major health system reform will be effective.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#142 HowStern

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 07:22 PM

Agreed - but we ('we' in the generalized sense, as in "we Americans") are going to have to see a major reform in our lifestyles and attitudes before any kind of major health system reform will be effective.


I think the reverse is true and I'll explain why. Statistics show that obesity levels are highest for the poor. (see: Correlation between Obesity and Poverty)
So, it's safe to say the majority of these people have no health insurance.

Perhaps if they did, and they had a doctor to "measure their waist" so to speak and tell them they need to lose weight or else, obesity levels would drop. Helping eliminate heart disease and other obesity related diseases and cut care costs.
"Squeezing a guys jolly roger with your hey nani-nani means dollars" -Howard Stern to Jessica Hahn

#143 UncleBob

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 04:29 AM

I think the reverse is true and I'll explain why. Statistics show that obesity levels are highest for the poor. (see: Correlation between Obesity and Poverty)
So, it's safe to say the majority of these people have no health insurance.

Perhaps if they did, and they had a doctor to "measure their waist" so to speak and tell them they need to lose weight or else, obesity levels would drop. Helping eliminate heart disease and other obesity related diseases and cut care costs.


No, because when the doctor measures someone's waist and tells them they need to lose weight, they get mad, file a complaint against the doctor, then go to McDonald's for a Big Mac and Large fries.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#144 irideabike

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 01:30 PM

No, because when the doctor measures someone's waist and tells them they need to lose weight, they get mad, file a complaint against the doctor, then go to McDonald's for a Big Mac and Large fries.


:lol::lol::lol:

That's about the same thing I was thinking. You've got to be pretty stupid if the only way you know you need to lose weight is if a doctor tells you to.

#145 HowStern

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 02:33 PM

Nah I think when they actually see a piece of paper with their cholesterol levels on it, and it sinks into their brain like the trans fat from their biggie fries that they are in trouble, there is a better chance they will lose weight. :)

I actually know a rather large woman who has always been large but recently the doctor told her her cholesterol was too high and she would die. She started eating healthy that day. I just thought of another one as I wrote that actually. The second one got a gym membership and goes every day but still isn't eating as well as she should.
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#146 irideabike

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 03:11 PM

I actually know a rather large woman who has always been large but recently the doctor told her her cholesterol was too high and she would die. She started eating healthy that day. I just thought of another one as I wrote that actually. The second one got a gym membership and goes every day but still isn't eating as well as she should.


Seems to me that is where common sense should kick in. Being overweight and not eating healthy = your probably have bad cholesterol levels and a lot of stress added on to your heart. It shouldn't take a doctor going, "hey your cholesterol levels are high, you should probably start eating healthy and try losing a few pounds" to get someone to lose a few pounds.

#147 depascal22

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 05:22 PM

Seems to me that is where common sense should kick in. Being overweight and not eating healthy = your probably have bad cholesterol levels and a lot of stress added on to your heart. It shouldn't take a doctor going, "hey your cholesterol levels are high, you should probably start eating healthy and try losing a few pounds" to get someone to lose a few pounds.


How are those common sense issues? You inherently know exactly what you should be eating and how much you should exercise? How many people in the projects in the trailer park even know what cholesterol is and they're supposed to magically know that they have dangerously high levels of it?

How many other things are common sense? How about using CAG, Goozex, or GameTZ to trade games instead of Gamestop? You'd think that people would just know where they could get the most value and would seek it out. Do they use this magic common knowledge? No. Instead they just go to the store because it's the only place they know.

It's the same thing. The only restaurants anyone sees outside of downtown metropolitan areas are fast food joints and gas stations. If it's so bad, why is it the only food available to most people?

Common knowledge for the poor:

Fast food is cheap, easy to find, and tastes good.

#148 HowStern

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 08:52 PM

Like depescal said it isn't common knowledge for some people surpisingly.

http://mystateline.c...text/?cid=75501

Take a look at that.

This is exactly why we need get these people insurance.

Edited by HowStern, 16 June 2009 - 10:59 PM.

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#149 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 09:44 PM

thats a british study, so i guess thats one more reason we shouldnt have universal health care.

plus, i dont buy that not knowing what lungs look like is "a precursor to poorer health"

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#150 HowStern

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 11:10 PM

But like the article says, just imagine how Americans would do on it.

http://www.telegraph...nd-science.html

Top 25 for reading science and math in the world. Guess who didn't make the list.
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