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Obama Care Could Be Deadly


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#2041 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 05:15 PM

just read an amazing article, you guys really should read this if you care about our country.

http://www.foxnews.c...lth-care-myths/

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#2042 fatherofcaitlyn

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 05:47 PM

"The WHO publishes reams of data that may more accurately describe the medical care a country receives. For instance, life expectancy is a decent proxy for the overall level of health and healthcare in a country. The life expectancy of those born in the U.S. was 78 years in 2007, up from 77 in 2000 and 75 in 1990."

Translation: The life expectancy is a fact instead of a myth.

"In fact, in 2007 -- the most recent year for which we have data -- health care spending decelerated, to 6.1% from 6.7% in 2006. More interesting is that the rate of growth has dropped every year since 2002, and that the average increase so far this decade -- 7.4%, though modestly ahead of the growth rate in the 1990s, trails far behind the 11.3% increase rate of the 1980s and 12.7% of the 1970s. Health care spending may be growing too rapidly, but it is not accelerating."

Translation: Health care costs are still growing faster than overall growth of the economy. The gap between the two is still growing, but not as fast as before. So, Fox is right. The problem isn't accelerating and getting worse. It is only getting worse.

"In fact, some argue that the growth in the sector stems directly from the aging of the population and advances in medical technologies. Knee replacements are expensive, but they are also now commonplace. Lipitor and other statin drugs cost a great deal, but they also prolong life and can eliminate heart disease. (The unfortunate reality is that prolonging life costs money, too.)"

Translation: Our population sucks. Other countries with older populations don't have the same problems.

"Our fourth healthcare myth is that Americans overwhelmingly want to see the system changed. It just ain't so. A Gallup poll conducted late last year showed that 49% of respondents wanted to maintain the current system, while 41% wanted it to change. In a more recent Rasmussen poll, only 50% of all voters are in favor of the president's reform plan. A mere 12% of respondents think their healthcare coverage will improve under the proposed overhaul, while 37% expect their coverage to be worse. The remaining 37% do not expect to see any change. In other words, 74% of Americans do not see healthcare reform improving their own situation."

Translation: We trust the people saying things like "Get your government hands off of my Medicare." to have an intelligent and informed opinion.

"In fact, a recent Kaiser Foundation poll found that 54% of Americans are not willing to pay more -- either in higher health insurance premiums or higher taxes -- to increase the number of Americans that have coverage. As a country, we are concerned about the rise in healthcare expenditures, and are heartbroken when we hear of people who have been denied medical treatment, but we do not want to pick up the tab for them."

Translation: People won't pay for deadbeats, but forget that hospitals jack up their rack rate because of deadbeats. So, people are already paying for deadbeats whether they know it or not.
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#2043 Msut77

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 06:13 PM

[quote name='RAMSTORIA']just read an amazing article[/quote]

I like how proud you are you read one "article", apparently the only one you ever read on the subject.

[quote]you guys really should read this if you care about our country.[/quote]

http://www.foxnews.c...lth-care-myths/

I care about my country, I am not so sure that you or the Fox organization via this silly bint does.

[quote]If you're trying to follow the health care debate, you know there are some "truths" which have been repeated so frequently, and with such vehemence, that they have become gospel. How often have you heard "the costs are skyrocketing" or "our system is broken" or "Americans overwhelmingly support reform"? Here's a heads-up: Some of these are simply baloney.[/quote]

I was wondering why her breathtakingly clueless and self absorbed tone sounded familiar.

http://news.muckety....tarp-wife/14791

What was I saying before about bubbles of wealth and privilege?

[quote]For instance, those pushing reform have described our healthcare system as "broken," thus in desperate need of overhaul. The primary evidence for this claim is a report issued by the World Health Organization in 2000 which ranked the U.S. 37th in overall "health performance" despite being number one in spending. (It is noteworthy that the WHO no longer publishes such a ranking -- deeming the process "too difficult.")[/quote]

Noted that this is the best she could do in trying to set up a strawman and still manages to damn those against reform in one of her first paragraphs.

[quote]Betsy McCaughey, in a recent talk before the Manhattan Institute, noted that the rankings were heavily weighted towards social goals, and less towards the effectiveness of medical care. In other words, the WHO studied the distribution of medical attention, and the fairness in financial contribution, placing as much weight on such issues as on actual performance.[/quote]

Speaking of Stepford Wives past their sell by date:

http://gawker.com/53...-mccaughey-liar

[quote]Further, according to Princeton professors Uwe Reinhardt and Tsung-mei Chung, the rankings "are not based on the actual values achieved by the nation, but on the ratio of the achieved values to the values that ought to have been achieved, given the country's educational attainment and spending." They point out that the rankings, in effect, were determined by the opinions of those surveyed. In short, this is hardly a scientific assessment.[/quote]

Uwe Reinhardt may have said this and I am more than willing to state the rankings aren't perfect but this does not even begin to attack the notion that it is ok for Americans to spend multiple times what other countries do for the privilege of enriching a relative few while subjecting tens of thousands of fellow citizens to pain and death and millions more to medical bankruptcy.

Meanwhile has op or the author read anything else by Uwe Reinhardt?

http://www.usnews.co...lth-reform.html

The guy is an expert undoubtedly but also vehemently pro universal healthcare.

[quote]Even against this bias, the U.S. ranked number one in "responsiveness" -- that is in actually delivering care, but got hammered on "fairness of financial contribution." The country that scored highest on that metric -- Colombia -- ranked 82nd on responsiveness. Would you rather be treated in Colombia or in the U.S.?

The WHO publishes reams of data that may more accurately describe the medical care a country receives. For instance, life expectancy is a decent proxy for the overall level of health and healthcare in a country. The life expectancy of those born in the U.S. was 78 years in 2007, up from 77 in 2000 and 75 in 1990. This figure is not at the top of the heap -- Japan's sushi-eaters can hope to live to 83, for instance, while a number of Western countries (Iceland, Italy and Australia among others) are at 82, but it is certainly respectable and better than most. The Russian Federation, for instance, has a life expectancy of only 66 years. Another gauge of a country's medical support is infant mortality. In the U.S., the WHO says, 4 out of every 1,000 births ends in death; only a handful of countries report a lower figure. Statistics show that 99% of births in the US are attended by "skilled health personnel" -- a figure only surpassed by Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tuvalu, among others. (Do we detect the challenges confronted by the WHO's data collectors?)[/quote]

I honestly don't know what to say to this "We may live 5 years less but at least we don't eat raw fish" or "At least we ain't Russia".

[quote]Myth number two about our healthcare system is that the growth in spending on healthcare has accelerated in recent years. In fact, in 2007 -- the most recent year for which we have data -- health care spending decelerated, to 6.1% from 6.7% in 2006. More interesting is that the rate of growth has dropped every year since 2002, and that the average increase so far this decade -- 7.4%, though modestly ahead of the growth rate in the 1990s, trails far behind the 11.3% increase rate of the 1980s and 12.7% of the 1970s. Health care spending may be growing too rapidly, but it is not accelerating.[/quote]

If you are going after healthcare "lies" you might want to parse a bit less before you admit you got nothing.

If one wasn't a professional troll they might compare growth in healthcare costs to income, something Rand Corporation does or which you can read about here:

http://content.healt...t/full/26/1/154

[quote]Myth number three about health care spending is that the increases in outlays portray a system "out of control" and bloated by greed and inefficiency. In fact, some argue that the growth in the sector stems directly from the aging of the population and advances in medical technologies. Knee replacements are expensive, but they are also now commonplace. Lipitor and other statin drugs cost a great deal, but they also prolong life and can eliminate heart disease. (The unfortunate reality is that prolonging life costs money, too.)[/quote]

The fact that medical technology is helping to fuel rising costs isn't in doubt but that still does nothing to explain why we spend so much more than countries facing the same challenges. "Some" say greed and inefficiency does.

[quote]According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, from 1997 to 2007 the number of prescriptions purchased in the US rose 72%, while the population grew just 11%. Over half of Americans take one prescription drug on a regular basis; one in five takes four or more. Overall, prescription drugs account for only 10% of the healthcare dollar, but this category has grown faster than overall spending. The reality is that Americans choose to spend money on the best treatments available.[/quote]

The reality is that a prescription drug plan was passed designed to enrich corporations to the detriment of everyone else.

[quote]Our fourth healthcare myth is that Americans overwhelmingly want to see the system changed. It just ain't so. A Gallup poll conducted late last year showed that 49% of respondents wanted to maintain the current system, while 41% wanted it to change. In a more recent Rasmussen poll, only 50% of all voters are in favor of the president's reform plan. A mere 12% of respondents think their healthcare coverage will improve under the proposed overhaul, while 37% expect their coverage to be worse. The remaining 37% do not expect to see any change. In other words, 74% of Americans do not see healthcare reform improving their own situation.[/quote]

There is so much fail here... I can find hundreds of polls saying Americans are pro reform, as for her "analysis" someone not seeing (note whether that means they are effected or otherwise) a change isn't an argument against reform. Not those numbers include the millions of people covered under various communist programs such as medicare.

[quote]The fifth myth is that Americans are deeply concerned about extending health insurance to those not covered. In fact, a recent Kaiser Foundation poll found that 54% of Americans are not willing to pay more -- either in higher health insurance premiums or higher taxes -- to increase the number of Americans that have coverage. As a country, we are concerned about the rise in healthcare expenditures, and are heartbroken when we hear of people who have been denied medical treatment, but we do not want to pick up the tab for them.[/quote]

I was wondering if she was going to deign to mention the uninsured and she manages to do it in the most incredibly horrid way imaginable.

Note to her and other Americans you are already paying for the uninsured WHEN THEY GO TO THE fucking Emergency Room you are paying in the least efficient and most expensive fucking way possible.

[quote]The United States does have to confront the reality that some people in this country are crushed by medical costs, and some receive inadequate treatment. But the debate over how to remedy these problems should be framed by facts, not myths.[/quote]

Yes.... they should.

Edited by Msut77, 16 February 2010 - 06:47 PM.

wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#2044 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 06:23 PM

oh man, thats was great. i didnt even read that article, just googled "health care reform myths" and it came up, saw it was from fox, posted it. i was really hoping i would get msut worked up, and i did. thanks guys, made my morning a little more fun.

Edited by RAMSTORIA, 16 February 2010 - 06:34 PM.

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#2045 Msut77

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 06:33 PM

Figures, back on my ignore list you go.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#2046 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 06:37 PM

Figures, back on my ignore list you go.


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#2047 Msut77

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 07:22 PM

Now back to substance:
http://economix.blog...le-health-care/
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#2048 speedracer

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 07:59 PM

just read an amazing article

i didnt even read that article

Fail troll is fail.

#2049 The Crotch

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 08:12 PM

Did... did I just see some of the weakest fuckin' sauce in the history of the Vs forum?

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#2050 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 08:20 PM

Fail troll is fail.


must have been a typo.

Did... did I just see some of the weakest fuckin' sauce in the history of the Vs forum?


i know, its amazing. :applause:

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#2051 fatherofcaitlyn

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 08:40 PM

i know, its amazing. :applause:


And you're proud of it.

Nice.

Are you interested in any honest debate today or should I come back tomorrow?
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#2052 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 08:45 PM

And you're proud of it.

Nice.

Are you interested in any honest debate today or should I come back tomorrow?


bad day at work, im trying the best i can to keep myself entertained. honest debate, not today, maybe when im off work. but if you want to debate about health care costs rising rapidly as part of a reptilian plot to bankrupt the united states, then yes. lets talk.

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#2053 thrustbucket

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 08:52 PM

Here is some debate fodder that might have been covered in this thread already but I'm too lazy to look:

Is health care a human right? Why or why not?

#2054 dmaul1114

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:03 PM

Is health care a human right? Why or why not?


Sure. If the "pursuit of happiness" is a right, health care should be as well right? Can't pursue happiness if you don't have your health.

On top of that--though a bit beyond the right issue--a society is pretty worthless if it can't at least take care of it's citizenry on a basic level of making sure everyone has access to essential health care, no one is going bankrupt over medical costs etc.

Edited by dmaul1114, 16 February 2010 - 09:34 PM.

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#2055 fatherofcaitlyn

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:18 PM

Here is some debate fodder that might have been covered in this thread already but I'm too lazy to look:

Is health care a human right? Why or why not?


Nope. Neither is food, water or air.

Is a society that allows a large portion of its people to suffer good or bad?
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#2056 SpazX

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:42 PM

I think I'm kinda going with FoC here. What the hell is a human right in the first place? We make all this shit up, so what's with the categories? And I don't think we're trying to extend health insurance to all humans at this point, so I don't know if it's even really a legitimate question.

But if you're asking if I think all Americans should have access to health insurance and think that it's feasible and better than the current system, then yes. When I'm the supreme leader of the world then maybe we can talk about what I think all humans should be getting and how we'll go about doing that.

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#2057 dmaul1114

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Posted 16 February 2010 - 11:09 PM

I think I'm kinda going with FoC here. What the hell is a human right in the first place? We make all this shit up, so what's with the categories? .


Exactly. It's not like human rights are some set in stone list of things. Again, pursuit of happiness is pretty damn vague, yet it's an unalienable right per the declaration of independence.

If that can be an unalienable right, so can health care. Especially since, as I noted, it can piggy back on that one as you can't pursue happiness, success etc. if you're not healthy enough to do so.

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#2058 SpazX

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 12:21 AM

Not really gonna fare too well with the life part either, and the liberty is debatable considering what debilitating preventable illnesses can do to your ability to do shit, but then again, the liberty party is pretty much always debatable.

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#2059 speedracer

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 12:44 AM

Is health care a human right? Why or why not?

It absolutely is and that's the root of the whole problem. No one advocates refusing health care to people in need. The entire system is broken precisely because the market cannot refuse to provide its services.

Which means market forces probably shouldn't be the only barometer for success in this one instance of the economy.* We can debate it as if it matters, but in reality it is the de facto conclusion.

*Surprise! You're a socialist pig.

#2060 Msut77

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 06:28 AM

What do you expect?

If your way of life was going to end in a few years, wouldn't you try to make as much money as possible in the little time you had left?


One of the reasons why they get away with it even with those who aren't rich is that the average Fox News viewer is 109 years old and so is enrolled in medicare and has been for so long they have forgotten what it is like to be at the mercy of the so called market.
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#2061 Msut77

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 03:47 PM

http://www.washingto...0022102915.html

Above all, Obama is trying to force Republicans to put their own health-care ideas on the table. On Monday, he's posting his own proposal, which will draw on the bills passed by the Senate and the House. Suddenly, the debate is no longer just about the flaws, real and imagined, in Democratic proposals. It becomes a choice between what the Democrats want to do and what the Republicans want to do. That's a fair fight.
----
To say that the one legitimate way to pass bills is to get a lot of Republicans to vote for them is to insist that election results don't matter and that only conservative legislation will ever get through Congress. All the Republicans have to do is be stubborn and yell a lot about being "excluded."
wahhhhh noone helped me so they must not help anyone. - knoell

#2062 UncleBob

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 03:31 PM

lol... Canada has the BESTEST HEALTH CARE EVER!!!
http://www.google.co...wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA
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#2063 SpazX

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 03:45 PM

Lol, you should read the third link in that article Bob.

Hell, I'll make it easy, here it is: http://www2.macleans...lliams-surgery/

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#2064 fatherofcaitlyn

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 03:46 PM

"Williams also said he paid for the treatment, but added he would seek any refunds he would be eligible for in Canada."

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#2065 mykevermin

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 03:47 PM

We've already discussed Danny Millions in this thread.
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#2066 UncleBob

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:01 PM

I just find it amusing that a wealthy, well to do Canidian chooses to have major health care done in the US - and pay for it himself. I also like the part where he's concerned he might be "perceived as jumping a line or a wait list" - I mean, that's just crazy talk! There are no lines in Canada! There are no lines in Canada and the streets are paved with cheese! There are no lines in Canada, so set your mind at ease!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#2067 SpazX

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:06 PM

There are going to be lines, there are lines here (or do you think every doctor here is just sitting around waiting for somebody to come and no more than 1 person ever wants care from the same doctor at the same time). The issue is whether or not they affect people's health.

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#2068 mykevermin

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:07 PM

You spent a lot of time putting together a couplet when you could have read more than one article on Danny Millions and coming to a conclusion.

One dude? That's the same mentality that sees snow outside one day and claims global warming must be false.
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#2069 UncleBob

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:13 PM

You spent a lot of time putting together a couplet when you could have read more than one article on Danny Millions and coming to a conclusion.

One dude? That's the same mentality that sees snow outside one day and claims global warming must be false.


Umm... I didn't really put that together... It's really not an original work by any means. Replace "Canada" with "America" and "lines" with "cats" and perhaps it'll come back to you.

And, for the record, I even read Spaz's article - including the comments. Fun times.

PS: Love the "Danny Millions". Nothing like throwing a little wealth envy and name fudging around. Oh, look, it's Bill Gate$! And Steve No-need-for-a-Jobs! Comeon everyone, let's go watch some Faux News! About as mature and awesome as "OwlGore"
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#2070 mykevermin

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:24 PM

Why do you bring up his case, then? Are you or are you not indicting the Canadian system? Are you or are you not bolstering the US system? Specifically, what do you find this lone case indicts or bolsters?

Might as well bring up Brock Lesnar's case. He was in a canadian hospital that took three days to get a replacement part for a machine. OMG Canadian health care in the entire nation is totally fucked and everyone dies and no one gets help!

*sigh*
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