Morality...

Its a well known fact that some of our favorite older games are becoming quite costly...

So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?

or just out of print

It depends. I have absolutely no qualms with somebody downloading or obtaining a burned copy of Suikoden 2 to play it. Yeah yeah legality whatever, I shouldn't have to pay some eBay gouger $200 to experience a game. If the game company is no longer receiving a proffit from it's sale, then game on.

But if you're downloading Splinter Cell or something, then you got trouble.

Why are you going around buying $100 games that you might not like in the first place?

I think using emulators and copies of games are okay if you have the game but don't want to damage it. But using emulators to play games so you don't have to fork over the money for it is not so much immoral but wrong in some sense.

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.
Ebay charges what the market will bear. Pirating/copying super-rare Suikoden II versus brand-new game NFL2k5 is the exact same thing, the only difference is the dollar limit before you turn into a pirate.

[quote name='dcfox']Why are you going around buying $100 games that you might not like in the first place?

I think using emulators and copies of games are okay if you have the game but don't want to damage it. But using emulators to play games so you don't have to fork over the money for it is not so much immoral but wrong in some sense.[/quote]

The last person I thought would speak up on morals... =)

So you're saying we should pay double retail for a used game that the original creator stopped making and will not see any profit from?

[quote name='evilmax17']If the game company is no longer receiving a proffit from it's sale, then game on.[/quote]

This is exactly my POV.

as soon as information is created it's up for grabs

[quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

Seller sells item for X$.
Buyer is willing to pay Y$.
If X Y, the sale probably doesn't occur. That doesn't mean it's okay to pirate the item.
Heck, Shadow Hearts was sold out everywhere except on Ebay for a bit there, does that mean it's okay to pirate it? World of Warcraft was sold out, I guess I can copy away.

You should pay whatever a game is worth to you, that you can get it for.

Polaricecaves: Okay. Send me your most recent term papers, and any creative writing you've written ever. Any game reviews you've written as well. Don't worry, I'll pay you--nothing.

[quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...[/quote]

No, but I could buy them. Regardless of who gets the money.

And they don't make $10,000 bills anymore, so it's okay to counterfeit them?

So you two think its ok for people on Ebay to charge both arms and legs?

If someone makes something, and you decide that you need to have it, then you should pay for it.

Why the hell not? You don't have to pay it, and if no one pays an arm and a leg, either the item won't sell, or the price will eventually go down. Personally I think 50 bucks is too much to pay for Madden 2005, but that doesnt' stop someone from buying it.

Kurt Cobain is dead. Since he was an integral part of Nirvana, and is no longer profiting from the music, does that mean it's okay for me to pirate all the Nirvana MP3s I want? How about Elvis? Or the written works of Shakespeare, Dickens, TS Eliot?

[quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...[/quote]

Using a similar example, what if I wanted to go to a concert but it was sold out. Somebody was auctioning off tickets at double the price. Should I pay the extra cash to buy the tickets or would it be alright if I just snuck in or used a counterfeit ticket?

I don't think we're argueing legality here. If a corporate attourney was present in your living room as you downloaded Suikoden II, and then watched you burn it and play it on your PSX, you'd most assuredly be prosecuted.

That isn't the issue here.

We're talking about videogames, more specifically ones that can no longer be obtained from retail markets. Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). We're not talking about money, and we're not talking about superbowl tickets. We're talking about being gamers, and not wanting to pay $200 to experience a game that originally retailed for $50 (and probably could be found for cheaper).

Is it illegal? Yes, certainly. But is it morally objectionable? That's up to you, but I certainly don't think so.

[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...[/quote]

No, but I could buy them. Regardless of who gets the money.

And they don't make $10,000 bills anymore, so it's okay to counterfeit them?[/quote]

Thats a little different... Forging government bills and copying a video game are very disimilar...

If you're going to counterfit money that generally means you plan on spending it. If you're not, I'm sure there are places that sell licenced knockoffs for a dollar or two...

If you copy an out of print game for personal use you aren't really hurting the company or the economy. If you were going to sell the copies for personal gain, that would be a no no, though.

[quote name='dtcarson']Why the hell not? You don't have to pay it, and if no one pays an arm and a leg, either the item won't sell, or the price will eventually go down. Personally I think 50 bucks is too much to pay for Madden 2005, but that doesnt' stop someone from buying it.

Kurt Cobain is dead. Since he was an integral part of Nirvana, and is no longer profiting from the music, does that mean it's okay for me to pirate all the Nirvana MP3s I want? How about Elvis? Or the written works of Shakespeare, Dickens, TS Eliot?[/quote]

Think a little first, please. Their works are still in production... You can walk into almost any walmart or target and find a new Elvis CD.

Hell, Tupac is dead and hes still making new albums.

You don't have to worry about paying $5000 for an original pressing or many many thousands for an original print of a 200 year old book... These items are still being produced.

[quote name='evilmax17']not wanting to pay $200 to experience a game that originally retailed for $50 (and probably could be found for cheaper).
.[/quote]

Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.

Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.

I can see a sort of fuzzy area if you were to, say, download a ROM and play it on an emulator for a couple days to see if the game was something you'd like, then decide to buy or not buy. That's probably technically still illegal, but in the end, if you buy or not buy and delete the rom, you are doing both the moral thing and the wise thing [for your wallet]. Anything else is simply an admission that "I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to pay what the seller is asking."

[quote name='dcfox'][quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...[/quote]

Using a similar example, what if I wanted to go to a concert but it was sold out. Somebody was auctioning off tickets at double the price. Should I pay the extra cash to buy the tickets or would it be alright if I just snuck in or used a counterfeit ticket?[/quote]

Concerts usually have multiple playing areas, KISS went around the country like 18 times before they buggered off...

But even if you miss the very last concert, you can still probably buy a boot leg copy of it, or get their CD at Kmart for $15.

Missing a concert is grounds for pirating because there are still reasonably priced alternatives. Its not like theyre going to stop making concerts after that one....

everything i've ever made I've kept for myself

If i were to "Release" something, it takes on a life of its own

now that we have the internet the information is out there and it isn't what it started as.. just 1s and 0s now

Your arguments vary:
first it's 'The original creator no longer profits.' I believe I've proven that argument is fallacious.
then it's 'No one else is hurt.' Some things are wrong even if no one's hurt.
all that remains is 'The price that's being asked is more than I want to pay' to which my response is very fatherly: If it's worth it to you, save your money and buy it. if it's not, don't.

"Forging government bills and copying a video game"

Not really, no. In each case you are copying something that has a value, that is no longer being created. If you copy and spend a 10k bill, who does that harm? Assuming you don't get caught, no one. Seller gets a bill, you get stuff when you use it. How is that different? [apart from,of course, the obvious federal anti-counterfeiting laws.]

[quote name='polaricecaves']everything i've ever made I've kept for myself

If i were to "Release" something, it takes on a life of its own

now that we have the internet the information is out there and it isn't what it started as.. just 1s and 0s now[/quote]

Now that we have paper, it isn't what it started as, it's all just A through Z now.

Not everyone has $200 for a game that originally retailed for $50. There are a lot of rich people... but, surprisingly... not everyone has $200 that they can just toss down on a game. And by being too cheap to pay what is asked... What is being asked is 4 times retail value... You don't think thats rediculous?

[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='evilmax17']not wanting to pay $200 to experience a game that originally retailed for $50 (and probably could be found for cheaper).
.[/quote]

Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.

Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.

I can see a sort of fuzzy area if you were to, say, download a ROM and play it on an emulator for a couple days to see if the game was something you'd like, then decide to buy or not buy. That's probably technically still illegal, but in the end, if you buy or not buy and delete the rom, you are doing both the moral thing and the wise thing [for your wallet]. Anything else is simply an admission that "I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to pay what the seller is asking."[/quote]

Let me ask this:

If Suikoden II [for example] was a game you were interested in, and it cost 5.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it?

If Suikoden II was a game you were interested in, and it cost 200.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it? If not, would you pirate it?

Actually, I would think you'd *support* things like ebay. 10-15 years ago, if you wanted a 'rare' game, you've have to travel to conventions, put out ads, look for ads, etc. Now it's relatively easy to find virtually anything--if you're willing to pay the price. Which is the way it is in most cases.

[quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dcfox'][quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...[/quote]

Using a similar example, what if I wanted to go to a concert but it was sold out. Somebody was auctioning off tickets at double the price. Should I pay the extra cash to buy the tickets or would it be alright if I just snuck in or used a counterfeit ticket?[/quote]

Concerts usually have multiple playing areas, KISS went around the country like 18 times before they buggered off...

But even if you miss the very last concert, you can still probably buy a boot leg copy of it, or get their CD at Kmart for $15.

Missing a concert is grounds for pirating because there are still reasonably priced alternatives. Its not like theyre going to stop making concerts after that one....[/quote]

Buying a cd doesn't recreate the experience of being at the concert. Thats like reading a review of a game instead of playing it. And saying that they're not going to stop having concerts is like me saying they're not going to stop making games. If you want to play Suikoden II but don't want to fork over the money, go play something made by the same developer or something similar.

And your argument that pirating out of print games doesn't hurt anybody isn't exactly true either. Don't forget that retailers such as eb, gamestop, BB, FYE are in the used game market. If you pirate Suikoden II then thats' one less person who will go out and buy Suikoden II from eb. Less sales = less profits= hurting somebody.

[quote name='dtcarson']Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.[/quote]

Agreed, if it were still available in a retail store. I think of "buying" as buying it from a retail store (who had previously bought it from the company). In my mind, the only negative thing about videogame piracy is that it takes money away from the industry (thus hindering future game development), and that doesn't happen if you buy it from somebody on eBay.

Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.

Click to expand...

I meant that I didn't care if it hurt the eBay seller. The seller isn't in the videogame industry, and the future of the industry isn't affected AT ALL by independent eBay sales. In terms of "hurting" this seller, you aren't even really doing that. As people have said "if you don't want to pay that much for it, then don't", so I'm not. If I downloaded a rom of Suikoden II (the example I like using in this situation), I'm not even hurting the eBay seller (because I wasn't going to pay that much for it anyway).

I'm not against making a profit either. If I found a sealed copy of Suikoden II in some Mom and Pop shop, you can damn well bet that it would be on eBay that night. But by the same token, I would know that the person buying my game would either be a collector or a "sucker". I wouldn't want people to pity me if I couldn't sell my game for rediculous profit, and I would rather not get paid and have more people experience the game than otherwise.

[quote name='dtcarson']Your arguments vary:
first it's 'The original creator no longer profits.' I believe I've proven that argument is fallacious. [/quote]

Huh? How? How have you proven that Working Designs profits when a used copy of Lunar 2 sells for $150?

[quote name='dtcarson']
"Forging government bills and copying a video game"

Not really, no. In each case you are copying something that has a value, that is no longer being created. If you copy and spend a 10k bill, who does that harm? Assuming you don't get caught, no one. Seller gets a bill, you get stuff when you use it. How is that different? [apart from,of course, the obvious federal anti-counterfeiting laws.][/quote]

If you want to get technical, the entire population is hurt. That influx of money will cause inflation, granted, 10k is a drop in the bucket. However, if you got away with it once, I'm sure someone would try again. Also, how long could that bill be passed before its found to be fake? Someone will get hurt because they exchanged 10k of goods and services for funny money.

If you copy a PSX game for your own personal use, the only persont hat gets 'hurt' would be the ebayer charging 10X what he probably paid for it.

One could argue a bootleg is like renting a game. When you are done with it, destroy it. If you want to play/own the original, buy it. I dont see a problem with playing bootlegs if 1) no one is making a profit 2) its a temporary fix 3) one buys games to support more good games (eventually if everyone stops buying videogames, there will be no new games)

Take this example. You buy a game. Copy said game. Trade said game. You are supporting the industry by the initial purchase. You lose money by trading it = no profit. You have a copy of the game should you want to play it again. Similar to renting a game from megaripoffrentalbuster, except you arent paying to play the game at an outrageous rental fee.

[quote name='Kayden']Not everyone has $200 for a game that originally retailed for $50. There are a lot of rich people... but, surprisingly... not everyone has $200 that they can just toss down on a game. And by being too cheap to pay what is asked... What is being asked is 4 times retail value... You don't think thats rediculous?

[[/quote]

Not at all. I've seen people pay 40-80k for a car that had a 'retail value' of 20k. While I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with them doing it. I myself paid close to 200,000 two years ago for a bunch of wood, metal and wires. I didn't 'toss it down', I saved some and financed the rest because what I purchased was worth it to me. That item was probably 30k more than it's 'retail value,' so according to you, I should have offered to only pay retail value.
It doesn't matter what 'retail value' is, once you're out of the retail market. All that matters is Buyer's willingness to buy and Seller's asking price. That's capitalism. If the item is important to you, you should have either bought it when it was MSRP, or save up for it.

I also don't have a problem with being too cheap to pay what is asked. I don't buy soft drinks at restaurants, I'm not going to pay 1.75 for .12 worth of Mt Dew. That's the beauty of being a consumer, we can choose what is worth it to us to buy. But I also don't ask them to refill my own cup that I brought..

Let's say my next door neighbour has a wireless broadband connection. Why, 45 bucks is way too much for me to spend on internet. Is it moral, okay, correct, for me to wirelessly jack in to his connection? After all, I'm not downloading huge files, no one's getting hurt except the big bad cable company, who's trying to make that evil Profit.

[quote name='dtcarson']Let me ask this:

If Suikoden II [for example] was a game you were interested in, and it cost 5.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it?

If Suikoden II was a game you were interested in, and it cost 200.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it? If not, would you pirate it?

Actually, I would think you'd *support* things like ebay. 10-15 years ago, if you wanted a 'rare' game, you've have to travel to conventions, put out ads, look for ads, etc. Now it's relatively easy to find virtually anything--if you're willing to pay the price. Which is the way it is in most cases.[/quote]

Not really valid for me, I picked my Suikoden II for $15 at target years ago.
As for the price difference, there are few things I'd pay 200 for. And if the only place I could find it was one were it was grossly overpriced, hell yes I would get a free copy for me only...

[quote name='evilmax17'][quote name='dtcarson']Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.[/quote]

Agreed, if it were still available in a retail store. I think of "buying" as buying it from a retail store (who had previously bought it from the company). In my mind, the only negative thing about videogame piracy is that it takes money away from the industry (thus hindering future game development), and that doesn't happen if you buy it from somebody on eBay.

Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.

Click to expand...

I meant that I didn't care if it hurt the eBay seller. The seller isn't in the videogame industry, and the future of the industry isn't affected AT ALL by independent eBay sales. In terms of "hurting" this seller, you aren't even really doing that. As people have said "if you don't want to pay that much for it, then don't", so I'm not. If I downloaded a rom of Suikoden II (the example I like using in this situation), I'm not even hurting the eBay seller (because I wasn't going to pay that much for it anyway).

I'm not against making a profit either. If I found a sealed copy of Suikoden II in some Mom and Pop shop, you can damn well bet that it would be on eBay that night. But by the same token, I would know that the person buying my game would either be a collector or a "sucker". I wouldn't want people to pity me if I couldn't sell my game for rediculous profit, and I would rather not get paid and have more people experience the game than otherwise.[/quote]

But that seller on Ebay, that money he was going to get from selling his copy of the game, perhaps he would buy three more games with it, or put it in his kid's college account, or take his family out to dinner with. Now he can't because you pirated the game and no longer wanted to buy it. No one's hurt?
Oh, so if you found the game, you'd be the evil seller charging 4x retail?
Who ever mentioned pity? I don't pity an ebay seller for not making a sale, I'm saying if piracy is the reason he's not making a sale, the piracy is wrong [and not just because of him not making a sale, but because piracy is wrong.]

So basically you're okay with pirating stuff, if the price of the stuff is more than you're willing to pay. Got it.

Ok... I think you're arguing this into the realm of what-the-hell-are-you-thinking territory..
Its a house... a FREAKING HOUSE... You can't pirate a house... Are you going to ebay a house from Hong Kong only to find out they used macaroni for the floor instead of tile?

Please be reasonable.

Something like a house is a necessity... the car deal is stupid... but they obviously have a shitload of money...
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game.

I didn't ask if you were super rich and could buy everything would you pirate stuff to be a cheap prick.


[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='Kayden']Not everyone has $200 for a game that originally retailed for $50. There are a lot of rich people... but, surprisingly... not everyone has $200 that they can just toss down on a game. And by being too cheap to pay what is asked... What is being asked is 4 times retail value... You don't think thats rediculous?

[[/quote]

Not at all. I've seen people pay 40-80k for a car that had a 'retail value' of 20k. While I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with them doing it. I myself paid close to 200,000 two years ago for a bunch of wood, metal and wires. I didn't 'toss it down', I saved some and financed the rest because what I purchased was worth it to me. That item was probably 30k more than it's 'retail value,' so according to you, I should have offered to only pay retail value.
It doesn't matter what 'retail value' is, once you're out of the retail market. All that matters is Buyer's willingness to buy and Seller's asking price. That's capitalism. If the item is important to you, you should have either bought it when it was MSRP, or save up for it.

I also don't have a problem with being too cheap to pay what is asked. I don't buy soft drinks at restaurants, I'm not going to pay 1.75 for .12 worth of Mt Dew. That's the beauty of being a consumer, we can choose what is worth it to us to buy. But I also don't ask them to refill my own cup that I brought..

Let's say my next door neighbour has a wireless broadband connection. Why, 45 bucks is way too much for me to spend on internet. Is it moral, okay, correct, for me to wirelessly jack in to his connection? After all, I'm not downloading huge files, no one's getting hurt except the big bad cable company, who's trying to make that evil Profit.[/quote]

[quote name='Kayden']So you two think its ok for people on Ebay to charge both arms and legs?[/quote]

If the price is unreasonable, nobody will bid and people on eBay won't make their sales. They are free to ask for a million bucks, you don't have to bid on their auctions. Just wait for someone to put one up at a lower starting bid.

[quote name='fragmanslayer']One could argue a bootleg is like renting a game. When you are done with it, destroy it. If you want to play/own the original, buy it. I dont see a problem with playing bootlegs if 1) no one is making a profit 2) its a temporary fix 3) one buys games to support more good games (eventually if everyone stops buying videogames, there will be no new games)

Take this example. You buy a game. Copy said game. Trade said game. You are supporting the industry by the initial purchase. You lose money by trading it = no profit. You have a copy of the game should you want to play it again. Similar to renting a game from megaripoffrentalbuster, except you arent paying to play the game at an outrageous rental fee.[/quote]

Um, no. Renting a game [or movie, or dvd, or library book] is a valid, acceptable method of 'borrowing' a single copy of an item to review it or use it for a temporary amount of time. Copying that item, illegally and immorally duplicates that item. And gives you ownership, granted of a copy, of the intellectual property that was on the disk, where your rental contract only allowed you a temporary rental.

Oh, and so now, 6.50 is an 'outrageous' rental fee for up to two weeks of a game rental? "Cheapass" isn't even the right word.

Technically that e-bay seller IS a part of the market. If it wasnt for the fact people collect games, there wouldnt be a market in the first place. Everything would be on-demand downloads for certain periods of time (Phantom?). No, that "$200" for Suikoden 2 will not go to the company that made the game, but it will get word of mouth about its value, thus giving said comapny free publicity, which is about the only reason i can see that a 4th was made (IMO...i just HAD to throw something like that in to piss someone off )

On the other hand...i PERSONNALY, wether illegal/legal or right/wrong, like to play emu's or burned copies of hard to find games. some available from a foriegn country, others just WAY too expensive, to the point it would be monetarily unavailable to me.

To get to the point: Its wrong, no one should do it, it does effect the industry, but not exactly in pocketbook form. And i like playing a burned copy of Evil Twin for DC

[quote name='dtcarson']So basically you're okay with pirating stuff, if the price of the stuff is more than you're willing to pay. Got it.[/quote]

Its really shades of gray, with a few unchangable points. If you can find it NEW in a fair amount of retail stores, then its wrong to pirate it. No bones about it.

In regards to "more than I'm willing to pay". Eh, kinda sorta, but I think that common sense yields when a videogame is severely overpriced. Looking at Suikoden II as a videogame to play (disregarding collectability), $200!? When you pirate the game, you're not inheriting it's collectable value. You also aren't getting the box and manual, or the official disk. You're not "stealing" the game, you're pirating it. Again, shades of gray, but i think that it's important.

On "what if the seller uses the money to buy more games" etc: please. If it's and buts were candy and nuts, we'd allllllllllll have a merry christmas!

About EB and Gamestop: I have NO moral qualms with doing damage to this company (in regards to used games). They've been ripping people off for years, and use horrible busines practices in general. I don't mind hurting their used game sales because they're evil enough as it is. Its like giving Satan a wedgie...

Now you're warping my words and trying to make me look like a dick so you can win an argument.

Ok, (this can go to dcfox too) say the guy on ebay has X game for $200.... I want X game... but I dont want to pay $200... So I decide not to buy the game... uh... what happens then? Gee, maybe someone else buys it. Now say I further decide to pirate a copy of the game... does the ebayer's copy magically combust and vanish from existance... hell no... he winds up selling it to someone else with a lot more disposable income than me... so... how did he get hurt by me pirating the copy? If it means that somewhere a long the line my extra copy means that 1 person wont be able to sell their copy for $200 I don't think the game must be all that rare... in which case it probably wouldn't sell for $200, nor would this argument have any point...

Now, there will probably always be a finite number of game X. It will probably sell for more and more as time goes on because copies will get destroyed, as this spiral continues the price will further climb out of the comfortable range of most gamers. Eventually only collectors will be buying them to look at, the game will never be played again as that would lower its value. Granted... now I'm projecting... but its feasible.
[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='evilmax17'][quote name='dtcarson']Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.[/quote]

Agreed, if it were still available in a retail store. I think of "buying" as buying it from a retail store (who had previously bought it from the company). In my mind, the only negative thing about videogame piracy is that it takes money away from the industry (thus hindering future game development), and that doesn't happen if you buy it from somebody on eBay.

Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.

Click to expand...

I meant that I didn't care if it hurt the eBay seller. The seller isn't in the videogame industry, and the future of the industry isn't affected AT ALL by independent eBay sales. In terms of "hurting" this seller, you aren't even really doing that. As people have said "if you don't want to pay that much for it, then don't", so I'm not. If I downloaded a rom of Suikoden II (the example I like using in this situation), I'm not even hurting the eBay seller (because I wasn't going to pay that much for it anyway).

I'm not against making a profit either. If I found a sealed copy of Suikoden II in some Mom and Pop shop, you can damn well bet that it would be on eBay that night. But by the same token, I would know that the person buying my game would either be a collector or a "sucker". I wouldn't want people to pity me if I couldn't sell my game for rediculous profit, and I would rather not get paid and have more people experience the game than otherwise.[/quote]

But that seller on Ebay, that money he was going to get from selling his copy of the game, perhaps he would buy three more games with it, or put it in his kid's college account, or take his family out to dinner with. Now he can't because you pirated the game and no longer wanted to buy it. No one's hurt?
Oh, so if you found the game, you'd be the evil seller charging 4x retail?
Who ever mentioned pity? I don't pity an ebay seller for not making a sale, I'm saying if piracy is the reason he's not making a sale, the piracy is wrong [and not just because of him not making a sale, but because piracy is wrong.]

So basically you're okay with pirating stuff, if the price of the stuff is more than you're willing to pay. Got it.[/quote]

[quote name='Kayden']Ok... I think you're arguing this into the realm of what-the-hell-are-you-thinking territory..
Its a house... a FREAKING HOUSE... You can't pirate a house... Are you going to ebay a house from Hong Kong only to find out they used macaroni for the floor instead of tile?

Please be reasonable.

Something like a house is a necessity... the car deal is stupid... but they obviously have a shitload of money...
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game.

I didn't ask if you were super rich and could buy everything would you pirate stuff to be a cheap prick.


[/quote]

I'm illustrating absurdity by being absurd. I'm using the same logic you have used. The house example was regarding 'MSRP' and 'resale markup'. Valid for housing, valid for video games. If I thought the price was too high for this house, I would have looked elsewhere-either the price would eventually go down, or someone else would have bought it. Just like for games.

"Something like a house is a necessity.
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game."

That makes it even worse. You'd steal IP, commit piracy, admit you're selling out for a few hundred bucks, for a *luxury item*? Even the guy in Les Miserables stole bread to feed his family.

I was unclear: Certainly in many cases of resale, the original creator does not profit directly.
First: Why does that matter? If that's the logic for piracy, then again, let's pirate Elvis records-he's dead, he's not profiting. The main thought when making a purchase shouldn't be 'who's making money off this,' it should be 'is this item worth X to me?'
Second: Tangentally, the creator, or the industry, or another industry, does profit. The economy is interrelated. If I sell a DVD for 20, buy a game for 30, sell it for 40, that money floats around in the economy and does profit others, possibly even the original creator down the line.

[quote name='evilmax17']Its like giving Satan a wedgie...[/quote]



[quote name='Wshakspear']Technically that e-bay seller IS a part of the market. If it wasnt for the fact people collect games, there wouldnt be a market in the first place. Everything would be on-demand downloads for certain periods of time (Phantom?). No, that "$200" for Suikoden 2 will not go to the company that made the game, but it will get word of mouth about its value, thus giving said comapny free publicity, which is about the only reason i can see that a 4th was made (IMO...i just HAD to throw something like that in to piss someone off Smile ) [/quote]

Wouldn't pirating it have the same effect? You'd still play the game and find out its a great game and then tell your friends its a great game... but if its a bad game you'll tell the it sucked and its value should lower... Which would be good, because shitty games being worth a lot just because their aren't a lot of them is bad...

[quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...[/quote]

They actually do make Star Ocean and Chrono Trigger still.

[quote name='Kayden']Now you're warping my words and trying to make me look like a dick so you can win an argument.

Ok, (this can go to dcfox too) say the guy on ebay has X game for $200.... I want X game... but I dont want to pay $200... So I decide not to buy the game... .[/quote][/quote]

Then that is where it should end. Piracy is making an illegal [and in my opinion, immoral] copy of something that's not yours. If you're okay with that, if 200 bucks is more important to you than a sense of morality or ethics, than obviously we disagree.

Maybe he sells it to some kid who worked all summer mowing lawns, saving money, to buy the game. Or an adult collector who cashed out his 401k. The argument that 'i shouldn't have to pay 200 bucks for this game because I don't have that much disposable income' is, well, totally self-centered and wrong. You couldn't save up 200 bucks? Ever? Birthdays, Christmases, ebaying some of your other stuff? Or does it come down to, like I said earlier, "200 bucks is more than I want to spend on that item [for whatever reason], so I think pirating it is okay instead." That's what your argument boils down to, as far as I can tell. If that's the case, then so be it. I wholeheartedly disagree, but that's your opinion.

Arguing 'well, who would be hurt by it' is a McGuffin. It doesn't matter, it's irrelevant to the crux of the discussion.

Couple of points to consider, one pro, one con (hey, I like to stir the pot):

-Who's to say the game you pirate, in this case Suikoden 2, won't see a re-release? Retro-gaming is getting pretty large lately, and it's not outside the realm of possibility. By pirating it, you have directly hurt the developer, because that's at least one sale they probably won't make.

-On the other side of the same coin, I think there is a valid point about items no longer being available. What about a case of demand with NO supply? I want to play Extremely Obscure Arcade Game X. It was never translated to a console, and the company that made it went out of business a long time ago. It's likely that, due to a low production run, no cabinets or PCBs for this game exist anymore. The one known PCB was used to dump the ROM, then was lost/destroyed in the mail. What then? (I realize this is an extreme)

If the market determines a price for an object and it is too high for your tastes you have the option to figure out how to afford it or wait til the pricepoint is in your range and then buy it.

I was using the rental as an example. $8 is too much for me to rent a game for a week (not using the damn end-of-late-fees exploit) when I can buy games for cheaper. I prefer to borrow games from friends and let them borrow my games. Simple solution to having to pay MSRP for anything. I guess you pay that premium in order to OWN said merchandise in this case a videogame.

You dont own a bootleg, you own the media its on, but not the data that is on the media. Thats where the illegality comes into play. If there were no such thing as bootlegs though, people would not get to experience as much because they wouldnt be able to legitimately afford it.

Could fansubs be compared to bootlegging games? I personally wouldnt mind saving money here and there by copying a game, but in the long run, it wouldnt be worth it. Fines, lawsuits, criminal activity, etc just wouldnt be worth it. IF you get caught.

Getting back to morality. Its only moral if you believe its not hurting anyone. Morals are a personal thing all in your mind. You can believe you are moral while others believe you are morally corrupt. It all depends on who is looking through the microscope.

[quote name='evilmax17']

About EB and Gamestop: I have NO moral qualms with doing damage to this company (in regards to used games). They've been ripping people off for years, and use horrible busines practices in general. I don't mind hurting their used game sales because they're evil enough as it is. Its like giving Satan a wedgie...[/quote]

Ripping people off? Allowing people to buy games, for a while return them, and sell their used games for a mutually-agreed upon price? Helping to make gaming mainstream, offering sales and promos, offering a wide selection of new and used games? That's ripping people off, that makes them evil?

Like I said earlier: No one's forcing you to buy or sell there. If NO ONE bought or sold there, they would either go out of business or change their practices.
Do you have any evidence of other 'horrible business practices', like beating their employees, stealing credit card numbers, things like that?

[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='Kayden']Ok... I think you're arguing this into the realm of what-the-hell-are-you-thinking territory..
Its a house... a FREAKING HOUSE... You can't pirate a house... Are you going to ebay a house from Hong Kong only to find out they used macaroni for the floor instead of tile?

Please be reasonable.

Something like a house is a necessity... the car deal is stupid... but they obviously have a shitload of money...
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game.

I didn't ask if you were super rich and could buy everything would you pirate stuff to be a cheap prick.


[/quote]

I'm illustrating absurdity by being absurd. I'm using the same logic you have used. The house example was regarding 'MSRP' and 'resale markup'. Valid for housing, valid for video games. If I thought the price was too high for this house, I would have looked elsewhere-either the price would eventually go down, or someone else would have bought it. Just like for games.

"Something like a house is a necessity.
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game."

That makes it even worse. You'd steal IP, commit piracy, admit you're selling out for a few hundred bucks, for a *luxury item*? Even the guy in Les Miserables stole bread to feed his family.

I was unclear: Certainly in many cases of resale, the original creator does not profit directly.
First: Why does that matter? If that's the logic for piracy, then again, let's pirate Elvis records-he's dead, he's not profiting. The main thought when making a purchase shouldn't be 'who's making money off this,' it should be 'is this item worth X to me?'
Second: Tangentally, the creator, or the industry, or another industry, does profit. The economy is interrelated. If I sell a DVD for 20, buy a game for 30, sell it for 40, that money floats around in the economy and does profit others, possibly even the original creator down the line.[/quote]

Stop using the dead artist analogy! It doesn't work! Elvis is dead, YES... but his music is still owned by family and record lables... "wtf, how is that different than pirating a game?'

Well, the record company still offers the music at a resonable price in a convient fashion. $15 at Wal*mart... Ok, you're getting what you want legally and supporting the manufacturer. Granted, buying the CD wont make Elvis record anymore songs, but it will show the owners you're still interested in further items. GH compilations, box sets, what ever...

"well if Konami sees Suikoden II selling for $200 on ebay they'll release it / make new games" Well... some validity... but then those with the loudest voice are those with the games already, they played it and loved it and want more. The biggest craze for a sequel is generally right after the lastest entry is released, before its a collectors item. People bought the game when it came out to play it. they beat it and want the story to continue. So they clammor for the next part. The ebay resellers only come into play after the game has become rare... years later... if Developer X hasn't atleast started thinking about a new version, people hoarding on ebay will have little effect, most likely. Further more, those dinking on ebay are out for money... any rerelease would hurt orignal sales.

[quote name='_heretic'][quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.[/quote]

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...[/quote]

They actually do make Star Ocean and Chrono Trigger still.[/quote]

Smart ass... I don't mean the 3rd one or the psx copy.

I was refering to the original SNES copy.

There's a lot of really good points being made by both sides, and I loves me some intelligent discussion, so I'll hang out here for a little while.

[quote name='PsyClerk']Couple of points to consider, one pro, one con (hey, I like to stir the pot):

-Who's to say the game you pirate, in this case Suikoden 2, won't see a re-release? Retro-gaming is getting pretty large lately, and it's not outside the realm of possibility. By pirating it, you have directly hurt the developer, because that's at least one sale they probably won't make.
[/quote]

I realize that I can't speak for everybody, so I'll speak for myself and hope that I represent a good chunk of the gaming community. I bought MMAC and Sonic Mega Collection at launch, and I own the originals for all of the games that are contained on them. Hopefully things like bonus content (and sheer convenience) would influence people to buy the rerelease. I think that the "game" and the whole product (packaging, presentation) are two different animals.

[quote name='dtcarson']Ripping people off? Allowing people to buy games, for a while return them, and sell their used games for a mutually-agreed upon price? Helping to make gaming mainstream, offering sales and promos, offering a wide selection of new and used games? That's ripping people off, that makes them evil?

Like I said earlier: No one's forcing you to buy or sell there. If NO ONE bought or sold there, they would either go out of business or change their practices.
Do you have any evidence of other 'horrible business practices', like beating their employees, stealing credit card numbers, things like that?[/quote]

Awww bro, you missed my big point. But I'll address this first.

I'm referring to things like selling used games as new, selling display copies for the sealed price, and giving somebody $0.50 for a game and turning around and selling it for $10. Yes, I realize that this is all PERFECTLY legal, but I don't agree with it morally. That's just me.

My big point was that when you pirate the game, you don't inherrit any of the benefits of the real mccoy. Your burned disk is worth approximately squat, and you don't get the box and manual. Alot of that $200 pricetag on eBay is collectability, and you aren't getting that when you download it. Look at Re2 and Re3 for GCN on eBay. Do you think people are paying $150 for the data on the disk? Or for the whole package?