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Mormons are homophobes?


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#61 SeanAmI

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 07:43 PM

Joseph Smith was called a prophet. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

#62 mykevermin

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 07:51 PM


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#63 CoffeeEdge

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:02 PM

Poor guy got muted. :(
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#64 dubbfoolio

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:18 PM

What's the point of arguing with anyone who doesn't believe in the principle of equality. Anyone who believes their race, sex, religion, gender, sexuality is better is simply a terrible person.

#65 PhrostByte

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:19 PM

A phobia is actually an irrational and unexplainable fear of something. It's a type of anxiety..

#66 dubbfoolio

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:24 PM

I see people do this sort of thing all the time, and I just have to ask.

Do you not understand the inherent rhetorical problem in combining mocking derision of religion with grand statements about universal rights? Whose mind do you think you're changing with a statement like this?

Moreover, do you realize how much easier it is to agree with your opposition when you sound like this?



I think your a fucking bigot, and that there's probably no changing your mind. So I think a statement like this sort of doesn't matter.

#67 Magus8472

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:42 PM

I think your a fucking bigot, and that there's probably no changing your mind. So I think a statement like this sort of doesn't matter.


What have I said that was bigoted?
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#68 dubbfoolio

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:49 PM

What have I said that was bigoted?


sorry, I apologize. let me restate that. I think anyone who opposes gay marriage is a bigot, and you have not specified where you stand on this issue. I just get so pissed about this argument because there shouldn't be anything to argue about.

I see no difference in the question of should gay people be allowed to be married than should black people be allowed to be married. I think we should strive for a government that see us all as equals, and rights should be the same for all people who are doing no harm to others. And I wish people would vote accordingly regardless of their own personal moral decisions.

I respect religious people who choose to spread their moral code through their own example. I despise religious people that try to impose their will on others.

#69 Magus8472

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:56 PM

sorry, I apologize. let me restate that. I think anyone who opposes gay marriage is a bigot, and you have not specified where you stand on this issue. I just get so pissed about this argument because there shouldn't be anything to argue about.


It's not a problem. I support gay marriage as well; I was trying to make a point about how adopting an insulting and/or sardonic tone makes you really, really easy to marginalize, particularly when your opposition doesn't. The point isn't to convince the person you're arguing against; they have their mind made up, so it's probably not going to happen. Rather, you need to think about the uncertain or indifferent members of the audience.

EDIT: And yeah, what Coffee said too. :)
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#70 CoffeeEdge

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 08:57 PM

dubbfoolio, you need to calm the Fuck down, brah.
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#71 dubbfoolio

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:16 PM

dubbfoolio, you need to calm the Fuck down, brah.

I'm not going to lie, this issue obviously infuriates me.

The intolerance and selfishness of people just completely appalls me. I don't think we need to tip toe around the issue, this is bigotry. I think we should be angry and I don't see the point in having debates with bigots. The whole argument that gay people are unfit parents is moot, because people, everyone, should be allowed to make their own decisions.

I wish all the rights and implications of marriage could be stripped from government completely, so the Christians could keep their "religious institution", but the fact of the matter is that married people are afforded many advantages, and you have to make these advantages available to everyone.

#72 Diosoth

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:21 PM

Religious people tend to be homophobic. Just as they tend to want to persecute anyone who doesn't share their views. Not making babies means you aren't creating more followers for your god of choice. Infertility and contraception are as equally bad as homosexuality in their eyes.

#73 naes

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:23 PM

However, as a religious person myself, I believe marriage is a union created by God to be between a man and a woman - and the fact that such a union, when carried out properly (with proper treatment of spouse and children) creates a safe environment for the continuance of the human species tells me that it's a good thing.

You and your religion have absolutely no right defining any terms whatsoever. Get your religion out of your politics. They have absolutely no place in politics (or anything). If a man and a man love each other, they have every right to be married. Get the Fuck over yourself.

I'm not going to lie, this issue obviously infuriates me.

The intolerance and selfishness of people just completely appalls me. I don't think we need to tip toe around the issue, this is bigotry. I think we should be angry and I don't see the point in having debates with bigots. The whole argument that gay people are unfit parents is moot, because people, everyone, should be allowed to make their own decisions.

I wish all the rights and implications of marriage could be stripped from government completely, so the Christians could keep their "religious institution", but the fact of the matter is that married people are afforded many advantages, and you have to make these advantages available to everyone.

I agree 100%, only anything relating to religion infuriates me.

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#74 blaked569

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:24 PM

to dubbfoolio - i understand that you might be infuriated by the apparent irrationality of certain people in the world, but stop for a moment and think. in regards to this thread, the Mormon community as a whole is opposed to gay marriage and homosexuality. do you think the entire Mormon community consists of nobody but idiots? i'm sure a good percentage of them are well meaning, intelligent people. so why do they hold steadfastly to their beliefs? to get to the crux of the matter and to form an agreeable solution requires careful consideration and diplomacy, not "you're a fucking idiot; Fuck you."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verstehen

#75 dubbfoolio

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:33 PM

to dubbfoolio - i understand that you might be infuriated by the apparent irrationality of certain people in the world, but stop for a moment and think. in regards to this thread, the Mormon community as a whole is opposed to gay marriage and homosexuality. do you think the entire Mormon community consists of nobody but idiots? i'm sure a good percentage of them are well meaning, intelligent people. so why do they hold steadfastly to their beliefs? to get to the crux of the matter and to form an agreeable solution requires careful consideration and diplomacy, not "you're a fucking idiot; Fuck you."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verstehen

I'm not trying to single out mormons. I've lived with a mormon who was one of the biggest pricks I've ever met in my entire life. I took a guitar class with a mormon guy who was one of the kindest, coolest people I've ever met. I think mormons are people, I think we are all people, but I find the mromon organization (and most western religion) in itself to be somewhat self serving to a degree of intolerance. And I don't like what it's done to the political landscape of the country.

#76 PhrostByte

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:50 PM

I wish church and state were ACTUALLY seperated. :lol:

#77 dubbfoolio

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:57 PM

I wish church and state were ACTUALLY seperated. :lol:

They're not because Christians throughout the history of our nation have implemented religion into government as it was convenient to them. And now that it's there I think they lose their rights to maintain that marriage is solely a religious institution. Churches don't need to recognize gay marriage. Government does.

#78 blaked569

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 10:09 PM

I'm not trying to single out mormons. I've lived with a mormon who was one of the biggest pricks I've ever met in my entire life. I took a guitar class with a mormon guy who was one of the kindest, coolest people I've ever met. I think mormons are people, I think we are all people, but I find the mromon organization (and most western religion) in itself to be somewhat self serving to a degree of intolerance. And I don't like what it's done to the political landscape of the country.


you didn't read anything i wrote. you don't take in anything that anyone tells you. you blindly plow forward with a blatant disregard of responsibility not only to yourself, but to others. and in that regard, you're no better than those you condemn.

#79 mykevermin

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 10:12 PM

blake brought Max Weber all up in this shit.
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#80 CoffeeEdge

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 10:35 PM

Page 4 score so far: 2 out of 10.
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#81 dubbfoolio

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:00 PM

you didn't read anything i wrote. you don't take in anything that anyone tells you. you blindly plow forward with a blatant disregard of responsibility not only to yourself, but to others. and in that regard, you're no better than those you condemn.

Like I said this really pisses me off. I suppose your right there is no point in blindly ranting about it.

#82 sanderdaniels81

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:06 PM

it all comes down to equality, and no matter how much you think your god loves you and hates homosexuals we're all people.



This is certainly putting words in my mouth. I never once said that God hates homosexuals. In fact, I believe quite the opposite. I do believe that homosexual acts are sinful, but I also believe that Jesus died for SINNERS (which includes *everyone*). His forgiveness comes as we give up our sins, not as we embrace them (forgiveness won't come until we let go of our sins).

I recognize that not everyone shares these beliefs. But the law entitles EVERYONE to vote according to *their own* beliefs.

Anger and hatred are definitely no way to go about resolving things, though. I don't have any bad feelings towards you, though it seems you do towards me.

Let me ask you this, is your hatred based on the fact that I believe what I do? Is it based on the fact that I have the right to freely speak what I believe? Is your anger based on the fact that you can't force me to agree with you, or vote the way you want me to?

Do you believe it would be better to force people to fall in line with your views and force them to enact laws that reflect your own personal views, or the views of groups that you sympathize with?

These are some pretty serious and important questions that you really ought to consider.


But since you asked, I suppose I would like to hear his homosexual apocalypse theory.



I have no homosexual apocalypse theory. My point was that IF the behavior was universally practiced (which it almost certainly won't be) it would bring disaster upon our species. Knowing this, it would logically introduce the idea that it's not a good thing, since at the individual level it results in the termination of the genetic line (unless reproductive genetic material is obtained from a willing third party, assuming that there is one).


I see no difference in the question of should gay people be allowed to be married than should black people be allowed to be married. I think we should strive for a government that see us all as equals, and rights should be the same for all people who are doing no harm to others. And I wish people would vote accordingly regardless of their own personal moral decisions.

I respect religious people who choose to spread their moral code through their own example. I despise religious people that try to impose their will on others.



First I'd like to respond to the second half of that. When a person goes to the polls and votes according to their conscience and beliefs, are they imposing their will on others? In other words, is voting a form of imposing your will? Have you yet, or do you plan to vote at any point in the future? Do you believe that by so doing you will be imposing your will upon society? Or do you believe that just by speaking their mind, a person is therefore imposing their will on others?

You are perfectly entitled to believe that you know better than the majority, and speak your mind as a result of that belief. But the moment you decide that it's okay to *force* everyone else to fall in line with your beliefs, or that it's okay to use violence to enact the laws you want, that's the moment that you become truly evil.

If gay marriage were voted in tomorrow, I wouldn't start a violent uprising to oppose it. I would continue speaking my mind in an attempt to help others see the merits of my beliefs, and I would seek legislation through the proper legal channels. Anger and violence against those who disagree with you, however, are not the answer, and are truly evil.

When you make statements like - "I wish people would vote accordingly regardless of their own personal moral decisions" - it leads people to wonder how badly you wish that you could enforce your personal will upon the rest of us.

Since you brought it up - black people don't have a choice in the matter of what color their skin is, and neither do white people, or asian people, or any other race of people on earth. Skin color is an inherited characteristic.

You might argue that sexual preference is also inherited. And I would likely even agree with that. However, when you have consensual sex with another person, you're making a choice (the very word "consensual" contains this fact, and if it wasn't a choice for EITHER party, it's called rape). So clearly, the act of engaging in consensual sex is a choice, NOT an inherited characteristic.

I believe that we are all equal. And I believe that God sees us as equals, too. But that doesn't mean that all behaviors are acceptable.

What is truth? Is truth dictated by the will of the people? Is truth dictated by equality? Are peoples' views of equality synchronized enough that they form the basis for a universal truth?

Is truth a self-existent tautology? Personally, I believe that it is. Do I believe that all of my views are in harmony with the tautology of truth? Of course not. To say that would imply that I believe I'm omniscient, which I don't. But like yourself, I feel strongly about my personal views, and I speak and vote accordingly.

But anger and violence are not the way. Open discussion and an attempt to understand one another are the only way we're ever going to reach an acceptable arrangement as a society.

#83 soulvengeance

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:09 PM

You sound kind of nuts. There really is no discussion to be had on this because your religion doesn't really allow you to change your mind. You couldn't be part of the religion if you did change your mind, correct?
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#84 mykevermin

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:23 PM

Let me ask you this, is your hatred based on the fact that I believe what I do? Is it based on the fact that I have the right to freely speak what I believe? Is your anger based on the fact that you can't force me to agree with you, or vote the way you want me to?


sorry, hombre. genteel, polite bigotry that comes wrapped in a cross and bearing a toothy grin and a firm handshake is still bigotry and thus hatred.

I have no homosexual apocalypse theory. My point was that IF the behavior was universally practiced (which it almost certainly won't be) it would bring disaster upon our species. Knowing this, it would logically introduce the idea that it's not a good thing, since at the individual level it results in the termination of the genetic line (unless reproductive genetic material is obtained from a willing third party, assuming that there is one).


Two things:

1) You're talking about something that is as unlikely to occur as...well, as unlikely as the second coming of Christ. Or, if you take offense to that metaphor, as unlikely as a Chicago Cubs World Series. So what's the point of saying something is bad given everyone does it, if, in fact, everyone does not do it?
2) You're also assuming that a population of 6 close to 7 Billion people, who've been fucking and reproducing as long as we've been here, will suddenly stop fucking and reproducing. Homosexual relationships, pregnancies, and parenthood are independent events, by and large. If nothing else, the modern era has shown just how detached the idea of "marriage" can be from "parenthood." This all more or less renders your point moot.

But I'm not done yet.

3) If you choose to ignore #1, let us entertain the inverse of your universal homosexuality means we'll all die out after one generation oversimiplified nonsensical juvenile theory. Why is this relevant if, given the institution we have globally now (let's call it the "fuck and have as many kids as possible") lead to extinction on a mass level when we reach a population threshold where we can no longer maintain a balance between the planet's resources and providing persons with adequate resources to survive? In short, I'm pointing out that exponential population growth is a path to environmental disaster, and disaster for the human race as well.

So your argument fell apart quite a while back.

First I'd like to respond to the second half of that. When a person goes to the polls and votes according to their conscience and beliefs, are they imposing their will on others? In other words, is voting a form of imposing your will? Have you yet, or do you plan to vote at any point in the future? Do you believe that by so doing you will be imposing your will upon society? Or do you believe that just by speaking their mind, a person is therefore imposing their will on others?


Irrelevant. When my will is "hey, let those people do what they want," and your will is "fuck those queers, they can't have what I have," then our wills aren't parallel. They aren't equal. My will is more righteous than yours. You suffer the folly of pride by thinking your life choices are superior to others. Sinner.

But anger and violence are not the way. Open discussion and an attempt to understand one another are the only way we're ever going to reach an acceptable arrangement as a society.


Some people don't deserve to be debated with. In my view, wanting to curtail the behaviors of other people who have no effect on your life puts you in a position where you don't deserve to be debated with. The level of folly underlying your claims, and the ease with which they were taken apart, is something else that shows you don't belong here.
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#85 lilboo

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:29 PM

Why doesn't anyone believe that homosexuals are here simply because if everyone has reproduced since the beginning of time..we'd be WAAAAY beyond 7 billion people :(

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#86 mykevermin

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:31 PM

That's what ugly people are for, boo.
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#87 Richard Kain

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:32 PM

You sound kind of nuts. There really is no discussion to be had on this because your religion doesn't really allow you to change your mind. You couldn't be part of the religion if you did change your mind, correct?


That's kind of harsh, isn't it? Faith is belief without evidence. This holds true for every defined system of belief. Even those who aren't religious have something that they place their faith in. Due to the limits of human perception and experience, it is impossible for any one person to know and understand everything. At some point, everyone has to place their faith in something. Without this, the world becomes a rather bleak place.

Is it really all right for the mind to be mutable on any subject? Is there no merit for making a stand on a decision you have already made? If a person chooses to adopt a defined belief system, you would expect him/her to turn against his/her own faith just so that they can agree with your position?

The scientific method would have us question and test everything. But humans can't actually live that way. That is the path of madness. We are built to believe.

#88 sanderdaniels81

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:38 PM

There really is no discussion to be had on this because your religion doesn't really allow you to change your mind.



Does *your* religion of humanistic thought allow you to change your mind? What will you do if it turns out that there is actually a God, and that He actually did forbid homosexuality? Would you be willing to change your mind and try to understand why He forbid it, and why/how it was detrimental? Or would you believe that you know better than an omniscient being and choose to hate Him?

My right to change my mind about ANYTHING is not granted by, nor repealed by, my religion. That right is given me of God, and is inherent to all people. And likewise, no human mind can be changed by force - only by persuasion, discussion, and experience.

#89 johnnyrocker360

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:41 PM

why hasn't this thread been moved or deleted by now?
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#90 sanderdaniels81

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:49 PM

Some people don't deserve to be debated with. In my view, wanting to curtail the behaviors of other people who have no effect on your life puts you in a position where you don't deserve to be debated with. The level of folly underlying your claims, and the ease with which they were taken apart, is something else that shows you don't belong here.



Apparently your religion of humanism allows you to discriminate on the basis on opposing views.

My religion allows me to hear you out, give you a chance to speak, and asks that I treat you with respect, now matter how abhorrent I believe your statements to be.

Your religion tells you that since I disagree in a way that is abhorrent to you, you should alienate me with statements like "you don't belong here" and telling me that it's worthless to listen to what I have to say, because you already have all of the answers.

Your approach assumes your own omniscience, to such a degree that all points of view that differ from your own are completely shut out.

I'm willing to hear what you have to say and consider it thoughtfully.

Which of these approaches is more open minded?

The desire and attempt to silence your opposition is not the way of democracy. It is the way of dictatorship.