Lawyer CAGs and CAGs in law school.

[quote name='Gentlegamer']I attended Texas Tech University School of Law, but dropped out. Does that count?[/QUOTE]

I got in there :) Not sure where I'm going to go yet (prolly USC or U of Texas), but I am attending law school in the fall I'm super excited :)
 
If you have to finance your legal education through loans, don't go unless you are planning to attend a top-10 school. I cannot emphasize this enough.
 
I'll be in law school in about 2 years, currently a comp engineering junior, i plan to do patent law.. I'm expecting to get out of undergrad with 3.7ish or 3.8ish, and I'm expecting around 167 LSAT (I tested cold around 160 and have practiced a bit up to 165ish)... my dream school would be Berkeley but I probably won't get in... maybe UC Davis would be more reachable. I'd like to be in Cali (or stay in Seattle), I don't wanna go anywhere else.

I sorta worry about my chosen path, though. I'm sort of a criminal. I mean, I'm writing this post stoned... as I type it uTorrent is running, transferring pirated video and audio... I don't even really believe in copyright for programs, computer software in general, I side more with Stallman, copyleft and open source is the way to go... but whatever, I just follow the money and job security, I can deal with being a cog in a system I oppose if the price is right.
 
[quote name='sgs89']if you have to finance your legal education through loans, don't go unless you are planning to attend a top-10 school. I cannot emphasize this enough.[/quote]

this.
 
Agree with the statement about not going if taking out loans.

@Koggit. I hope you understand that just attending law school doesn't equal job security or a huge flow of money. There's a shit ton of people heading to law school assuming they're gonna get $100k/year automatically after obtaining their JD and passing the bar when it's far from the actual numbers. Not all become lawyers, some enter academia, business, and other fields far from law. Also, the trend seems to imply that there's going to be a ~15% increase in "lawyers" within the next 5 years because people are trying to ride out the recession by pursuing higher education. And I don't understand why your current lifestyle should make you worry about your career as being a patent lawyer is typically going to mean manipulating wording in patent and copyright laws, finding loopholes and shit, etc, to work in your clients' favor.
 
[quote name='lilboo']I blew a lawyer, does that count?[/QUOTE]

Only if you swallowed (since you would then gain all of his powers, obviously).
 
[quote name='mis0']@Koggit. I hope you understand that just attending law school doesn't equal job security or a huge flow of money. There's a shit ton of people heading to law school assuming they're gonna get $100k/year automatically after obtaining their JD and passing the bar when it's far from the actual numbers. Not all become lawyers, some enter academia, business, and other fields far from law. Also, the trend seems to imply that there's going to be a ~15% increase in "lawyers" within the next 5 years because people are trying to ride out the recession by pursuing higher education. And I don't understand why your current lifestyle should make you worry about your career as being a patent lawyer is typically going to mean manipulating wording in patent and copyright laws, finding loopholes and shit, etc, to work in your clients' favor.[/QUOTE]
i'm def not worried about the pay or finding a job... i think the demand for patent lawyers is much higher than other legal specialties
 
I'm currently in law school (graduating in the spring). I cannot emphasize this enough, learn what you are getting into.

"T14 or bust" isn't true but getting into one of the T14 schools will make your life infinitely easier trying to get internships, interviews and ultimately a job. Be prepared to work your ass off while in law school and post graduation (60 hour weeks and working weekends is the norm). You are going to graduate owing some serious money (don't go to a lesser school just to save money, it's not worth it). Intern for a couple of firms (big/medium size) prior to attending law school just to see if you like it.

It's not all doom and gloom. Being a lawyer can be immensely intoxicating , no pun intended ;-). The ability to think like a lawyer is handsomely compensated by the private sector. Remember that in the end, you can do virtually anything you want with a law degree.
 
All of the "don't go" comments are ridiculous. If someone goes to law school because they aren't sure what they want to do or are just looking to make lots of money, than yes it is a bad idea and terribly unrealistic. I've wanted to be a prosecutor my entire life, so law school is a necessary step for me.

For the "don't go" people, what do you guys do? Accountants? Teachers? I am sure you could poll CAG and find tons of people who have negative views on those career paths as well.

If you read the OP, the guy simply asked if there were any lawyers or law students here, not your personal opinions on the profession.
 
Any job that makes you separates your soul from your body, should be highly scrutinized. Lawyers are needed why? It's not the will of the people, who make the laws, it's the filthy scam artists in the government who create them. Instead of using common sense to figure shit out, and sometimes make a mistake, we have retarded rules that no one understands except for the highest paid lawyers, which allows the guilty to walk. There are no just lawyers, unless you are the common American that worships the television. If you're a lawyer, you're an inhuman piece of trash. You turn your morals on when you leave the job, and that's despicable. :D
 
[quote name='drone8888']Any job that makes you separates your soul from your body, should be highly scrutinized. Lawyers are needed why? It's not the will of the people, who make the laws, it's the filthy scam artists in the government who create them. Instead of using common sense to figure shit out, and sometimes make a mistake, we have retarded rules that no one understands except for the highest paid lawyers, which allows the guilty to walk. There are no just lawyers, unless you are the common American that worships the television. If you're a lawyer, you're an inhuman piece of trash. You turn your morals on when you leave the job, and that's despicable. :D[/QUOTE]

I take it your parents are doctors?
 
[quote name='irishsoccermbw']All of the "don't go" comments are ridiculous. If someone goes to law school because they aren't sure what they want to do or are just looking to make lots of money, than yes it is a bad idea and terribly unrealistic. I've wanted to be a prosecutor my entire life, so law school is a necessary step for me.

For the "don't go" people, what do you guys do? Accountants? Teachers? I am sure you could poll CAG and find tons of people who have negative views on those career paths as well.

If you read the OP, the guy simply asked if there were any lawyers or law students here, not your personal opinions on the profession.[/QUOTE]

I am an accountant and I find your post HIGHLY offensive. ;)

One can definitely go to law school if they actually be smart about it. The thing is too many people these days go to law school fully on loans, don't specialize in a field with demand, and end up working shit jobs, many of which don't even have to do with law, and have thousands and thousands of loans for the rest of their lives. You just need to be smart about it. I know from personal experience about this as my ex did the same exact stupid things I mentioned. He didn't really specialize in anything, took out nearly $200k in loans, and was only in the 50% percentile of his law class at a top 50ish school. He hasn't been able to find a decent job to save his life and he graduated 4.5 years ago. Just don't be him and you'll be fine.
 
[quote name='drone8888']Any job that makes you separates your soul from your body, should be highly scrutinized. Lawyers are needed why? It's not the will of the people, who make the laws, it's the filthy scam artists in the government who create them. Instead of using common sense to figure shit out, and sometimes make a mistake, we have retarded rules that no one understands except for the highest paid lawyers, which allows the guilty to walk. There are no just lawyers, unless you are the common American that worships the television. If you're a lawyer, you're an inhuman piece of trash. You turn your morals on when you leave the job, and that's despicable. :D[/QUOTE]

Geez, I don't like lawyers as much as the next guy, but you're taking it to a whole different level.
 
[quote name='docvinh']Geez, I don't like lawyers as much as the next guy, but you're taking it to a whole different level.[/QUOTE]

I know right, you'd think he's talking about going into business school or something.
 
but the vast majority of people who go to law school have useless degrees, communication or political science or psychology or whatever... sure, unless they're getting into a good school (I wouldn't say T14 or bust, maybe top 50) they'll have trouble finding a job but I bet it's less trouble than they'd have with their worthless poly sci degree...

People who end up realizing law school is a mistake seem to have made undergrad mistakes. Generally speaking, law school improves your career prospects, it's just that for some people the improvement isn't drastic enough for them to be satisfied.
 
[quote name='Koggit']but the vast majority of people who go to law school have useless degrees, communication or political science or psychology or whatever... sure, unless they're getting into a good school (I wouldn't say T14 or bust, maybe top 50) they'll have trouble finding a job but I bet it's less trouble than they'd have with their worthless poly sci degree...

People who end up realizing law school is a mistake seem to have made undergrad mistakes. Generally speaking, law school improves your career prospects, it's just that for some people the improvement isn't drastic enough for them to be satisfied.[/QUOTE]

You sound like a business major. Education is never a mistake.
 
[quote name='Koggit']but the vast majority of people who go to law school have useless degrees, communication or political science or psychology or whatever... sure, unless they're getting into a good school (I wouldn't say T14 or bust, maybe top 50) they'll have trouble finding a job but I bet it's less trouble than they'd have with their worthless poly sci degree...

People who end up realizing law school is a mistake seem to have made undergrad mistakes. Generally speaking, law school improves your career prospects, it's just that for some people the improvement isn't drastic enough for them to be satisfied.[/QUOTE]

Yeah my ex was a poli sci major. He basically made all the wrong moves. You're not fucked if you have a useless undergrad major if you go to a top 10 school and are in the top 20% or so of your class. But if don't do those things with a shitty undergrad degree, then yes you are fucked.

My ex went to a Top 50 school also but like I said he was only in like the 50th percentile of his class and he did NOT get an internship with a law firm.
 
[quote name='irishsoccermbw']For the "don't go" people, what do you guys do? Accountants? Teachers? I am sure you could poll CAG and find tons of people who have negative views on those career paths as well.[/QUOTE]

I'm a law student. Law school is a terrible experience; you will learn absolutely nothing of practical value, and your job prospects will be determined largely by what school you go to and who you know rather than what you study or how well you do, particularly in this economy.

So, I'll qualify: Don't go unless you're going to a T14.
 
[quote name='c0rnpwn']You sound like a business major. Education is never a mistake.[/QUOTE]

Whatever it is you get from useless liberal arts degrees is not what I would call an education... if you want to study Cinema History or whatever for you, that's great, but those people better not walk around thinking they're educated and therefore deserve better jobs. Law degrees are only one step removed from this.



The majority of people who bitch about law school not being worth it are actually in a bad situation because of their undergrad, not because of law school. They spend 4 years in undergrad wasting their time with a slacker major, so when they graduate they aren't appealing to employers, they can only get maybe $25k/yr in positions with with low ceilings... they're unhappy with those options so they go to law school, where after 3 years they usually start $40k+, but then they bitch about this not being fair pay for their 7 years of education. In fact, the $40k is actually a damn fair increase from the $25k their Music Theory degree would've gotten them.

Similarly, if they had worked their ass off and graduated top of their class where they would've then had options for $40k+ out of undergrad, then those same credentials would've gotten them into a top law school where they would've gotten $70k+ out of law school, or if they had a more challenging program (engineering or graduate level science) then out of undergrad they may get $70k+ offers, but they also get an admissions boost to in applying to law school, and out of law school $100k+ offers because there's more demand for lawyers with technical backgrounds. It's all proportional to how in-demand you are out of undergrad: the better shape you're in out of undergrad, the better shape you'll be in after law school. If your situation out of undergrad sucks, law school isn't going to magically fix anything.

I can almost guarantee, anyone with poor career prospects out of law school had poor career prospects out of undergrad. It's just that people tend to blame the most recent related event for any problem, or in this case the most recent school.
 
[quote name='c0rnpwn']You sound like a business major. Education is never a mistake.[/QUOTE]

Whatever it is you get from useless liberal arts degrees is not what I would call an education... if you want to study Cinema History or whatever for you, that's great, but those people better not walk around thinking they're educated and therefore deserve better jobs. Law degrees are only one step removed from this.



The majority of people who bitch about law school not being worth it are actually in a bad situation because of their undergrad, not because of law school. They spend 4 years in undergrad wasting their time with a slacker major, so when they graduate they aren't appealing to employers, they can only get maybe $25k/yr in positions with with low ceilings... they're unhappy with those options so they go to law school, where after 3 years they usually start $40k+, but then they bitch about this not being fair pay for their 7 years of education. In fact, the $40k is actually a damn fair increase from the $25k their Music Theory degree would've gotten them.

Similarly, if they had worked their ass off and graduated top of their class where they would've then had options for $40k+ out of undergrad, then those same credentials would've gotten them into a top law school where they would've gotten $70k+ out of law school, or if they had a more challenging program (engineering or graduate level science) then out of undergrad they may get $70k+ offers, but they also get an admissions boost to in applying to law school, and out of law school $100k+ offers because there's more demand for lawyers with technical backgrounds. It's all proportional to how in-demand you are out of undergrad: the better shape you're in out of undergrad, the better shape you'll be in after law school. If your situation out of undergrad sucks, law school isn't going to magically fix anything.

I can almost guarantee, anyone with poor career prospects out of law school had poor career prospects out of undergrad. It's just that people tend to blame the most recent related event for any problem, or in this case the most recent school.
 
Soooo, basically only engineering degrees are the only worthwhile degrees for law school apparently. Everything else is a waste of time. Good to know.
 
I can see where a degree in some kind of art or english (kind of) is irrelevant to a law degree, but unless you're talking about some specific kinds of law, math and science degrees seem even less relevant. Something like political science, history, or criminal justice seems to make more sense as an undergrad degree if you're going for law afterwards.

Obviously if you got terrible grades it doesn't really matter, but I don't see where a degree in fields like engineering or biology would be more relevant to law in general. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
Reading comprehension fail.

I won't repeat myself, but I'll condense it: prospective law students should expect their J.D. career prospects to be higher than but proportional to their bachelor's degree career prospects. It's really that simple.
 
Doc, could you point out where I said only engineers should go to law school? Pretty sure I didn't say that.

To condense my previous post: prospective law students should expect their J.D. career prospects to be better than but proportional to their bachelor's degree career prospects. It's really that simple.


[quote name='SpazX']I can see where a degree in some kind of art or english (kind of) is irrelevant to a law degree, but unless you're talking about some specific kinds of law, math and science degrees seem even less relevant. Something like political science, history, or criminal justice seems to make more sense as an undergrad degree if you're going for law afterwards.

Obviously if you got terrible grades it doesn't really matter, but I don't see where a degree in fields like engineering or biology would be more relevant to law in general. Maybe I'm missing something.[/QUOTE]

Leaving aside the benefits of studying formal logic, which is covered extensively (and almost exclusively) in technical fields, the idea isn't so much that the technical background makes you a better lawyer, but rather the technical background is favored by law school admissions committees (helping you get into a better school) and desired by employers (since patent law is relatively lucrative and there are disproportionately fewer lawyers with technical backgrounds).
 
Relax man, I'm just fucking with you.:) I guess it really depends what branch of law you're going into which makes it worthwhile and lucrative. Don't they cover formal logic in Philosophy too? That's pretty much a useless degree unless you continue on to grad school or law school.

[quote name='Koggit']Doc, could you point out where I said only engineers should go to law school? Pretty sure I didn't say that.

To condense my previous post: prospective law students should expect their J.D. career prospects to be better than but proportional to their bachelor's degree career prospects. It's really that simple.




Leaving aside the benefits of studying formal logic, which is covered extensively (and almost exclusively) in technical fields, the idea isn't so much that the technical background makes you a better lawyer, but rather the technical background is favored by law school admissions committees (helping you get into a better school) and desired by employers (since patent law is relatively lucrative and there are disproportionately fewer lawyers with technical backgrounds).[/QUOTE]
 
There is no statement that makes my blood boil more than "you can do anything with a law degree." Other than practicing law, there isn't anything that you can do with a law degree that is suddenly open to you after going through law school.

Also, your law degree and experience isn't going to fling open doors in the business sector either. In fact, most people will look at you strangely and wonder why you're going another route instead of raking in the money as a lawyer.

If you can go to law school for free or with minimal loans, then it might not be a bad idea. It really depends on what you'd be doing if you weren't in law school. Also, the $160K jobs aren't there like they were a few years ago. Even patent lawyers were laid off recently, and the supply of lawyers for those jobs far outweighs the demand, even when legal work is at a high.
 
You don't need $160k+ to be rich.. average starting salary private sector from UW Seattle is $92k and they're just rank 30 or so (they're my current undergrad, and probably going to be my most realistic target for law)... that's already about 50% more than the average UW CSE grad, and I'd argue that the CSE department is harder to get into (slightly higher acceptance rate.. but.. well, I'll spare the details unless anyone requests them).. $92k is about the upper limit for many engineering employers and yet half of new grads from a rank ~30 school are raking in more than that.. I have a lot of trouble viewing that as under compensated
 
[quote name='Koggit']Doc, could you point out where I said only engineers should go to law school? Pretty sure I didn't say that.

To condense my previous post: prospective law students should expect their J.D. career prospects to be better than but proportional to their bachelor's degree career prospects. It's really that simple.




Leaving aside the benefits of studying formal logic, which is covered extensively (and almost exclusively) in technical fields, the idea isn't so much that the technical background makes you a better lawyer, but rather the technical background is favored by law school admissions committees (helping you get into a better school) and desired by employers (since patent law is relatively lucrative and there are disproportionately fewer lawyers with technical backgrounds).[/QUOTE]

Slacker majors? Liberal arts does not equal education? Goodness gracious, you don't realize why those people are getting those degrees. It's not for the money (and if it is, I agree with you they should've chosen something else).

And you'd probably poo poo my Latin major, despite the fact I've probably learned as much logic from it (the language itself as well as the classical philosophers) as you have from engineering. I'd say you're being a little short-sighted, but you'd probably respond indignantly.
 
[quote name='lawhorns04']There is no statement that makes my blood boil more than "you can do anything with a law degree." Other than practicing law, there isn't anything that you can do with a law degree that is suddenly open to you after going through law school.
[/QUOTE]

A JD can be as useful as you want it to be. It all depends on what you want to get out of it. One of my good law school buddies runs a managing firm for Broadway actors (for him the JD is just a means to an end...it looks good on the wall). If you plan to run for public office there is nothing better to have in your arsenal than a JD. With a JD you can work as a consultant/ public service/ sit on corporate boards and a variety of other things.

In the end it's your imagination that is stopping you from getting the most out of your JD.
 
I'm not bothered by people choosing useless degrees, nothing wrong with em, I'm just bothered by the ones that come out 4 years later bitching about the job market (or 7 years later, re: law school), and unfortunately that's the majority
 
I dropped out of Washington University in St. Louis after a semester about 6 years ago. I wasn't too enthused about the prospects of being $120K+ in debt after finishing school. That said, I'm going to retake the LSAT this June and dip my toe back into the law school pond.

My advice is to apply as broadly as possible and do everything you can to minimize the amount of debt you take on to finance law school. The top 14 schools are probably the only ones worth going deeply into debt for, and that's soley due to their reputations.
 
People are saying "no job prospects" what professions have 'good' job prospects in the economy we live in today? Besides the always in demand medical field, what areas have high demand?

When I clicked on this thread I thought there would be an intelligent discussion about the legal profession and the education process, that sure has not happened as of yet.

Also, Latin major? What opportunities does a Latin major have outside of teaching? I'm just curious.
 
[quote name='irishsoccermbw']I got in there :) Not sure where I'm going to go yet (prolly USC or U of Texas), but I am attending law school in the fall I'm super excited :)[/QUOTE]Get ready to lose that excitement.
 
[quote name='sgs89']If you have to finance your legal education through loans, don't go unless you are planning to attend a top-10 school. I cannot emphasize this enough.[/QUOTE]This +infinity
 
[quote name='irishsoccermbw']
Also, Latin major? What opportunities does a Latin major have outside of teaching? I'm just curious.[/QUOTE]

Law, just as the Ancient Romans intended. :p

Or I could get an MBA and be one of them. I'm fortunate enough where I won't need to take on any debt for higher education.
 
[quote name='sgs89']If you have to finance your legal education through loans, don't go unless you are planning to attend a top-10 school. I cannot emphasize this enough.[/QUOTE]

This seems to be the general consensus among experts these days. Even students at the top 10 are having some difficulties finding jobs in this economy. If you can get a full ride or good funding at some local or regional school, then you may be in good shape. But the 100k jobs generally only come out of the top 15 schools or being top 10% somewhere out of the top 25 or so...

I'll probably be taking the plunge after the LSAT this June. If I don't get into a top school, its probably not worth going.
 
[quote name='Gentlegamer']Get ready to lose that excitement.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is not going to happen. I'm not one of those "well I have nothing else to do, might as well go to grad/law school", I've been wanting to go since I was like 5. I've shadowed people in class, and know what to expect. I also scored a 172 on the LSAT and 3.92 from the University of Michigan, so a decent school is in the realm of possibilities...but keep being a downer, life must be great that way.
 
[quote name='irishsoccermbw']Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is not going to happen. I'm not one of those "well I have nothing else to do, might as well go to grad/law school", I've been wanting to go since I was like 5. I've shadowed people in class, and know what to expect. I also scored a 172 on the LSAT and 3.92 from the University of Michigan, so a decent school is in the realm of possibilities...but keep being a downer, life must be great that way.[/QUOTE]Ok, Gunner, have a ball.
 
You gotta remember that right now things are tough everywhere, including law.

Having said that, yes you absolutely can get a job from "just" a top 50 school if you are a top 10% or even better, a top 5%. If you have the dedication and drive, you can still get there. But don't kid yourself and think you're going to go to a law school ranked #55 and be in the bottom half and walk into a job paying 6 figures. It ain't happening.

And there's many jobs outside of the big firms that are hiring and do so based on factors other than grades. Higher education hires based on their experience with a recruit during an internship. I know people that have been offered by colleges that otherwise wouldn't give them the time of day if it were a straight GPA thing, but loved the intern and wants to keep them on.

It also depends on the market. Here in Houston, due to the nature of the work done here, big and regional size firms are still hiring. The top 10% at UHouston have jobs. Bracewell, Locke Lord, V&E, etc. etc. are all still hiring.

It's all about your first year. The other two years of law school don't matter (relatively speaking) for getting a job. IF you can bust your ass on a level you never thought possible and IF you can write well and IF you're a good interview, you should have no fear of taking on debt for a law degree. Your 1st year internships should be with public sector, your 2nd year internships with big firms, and then you can sit back and decide on your offers.

That's how it's done.

lol @ gunner
 
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