MLB 2010 Discussion Thread

[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']For now, hot stove and Hall of Fame complaining...[/QUOTE]

So, we all heard about McGwire coming clean. Anybody think anyone else will follow suit?

Also, I think he deserves a spot in the hall, even though he cheated.
 
[quote name='Brownjohn']So, we all heard about McGwire coming clean. Anybody think anyone else will follow suit?

Also, I think he deserves a spot in the hall, even though he cheated.[/QUOTE]


May I ask why? The only thing Big Mac did well was hit homeruns. Which were clearly due to his PED's.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']May I ask why? The only thing Big Mac did well was hit homeruns. Which were clearly due to his PED's.[/QUOTE] False. For starters, he played 16 years with an OBP near .400 (.394 to be exact)
 
[quote name='klwillis45']False. For starters, he played 16 years with an OBP near .400 (.394 to be exact)[/QUOTE]


He got pitched around because he cheated and hit the ball 500 feet when he connected. His walks were a product of his cheating.

McGwire is also the same player who hit .231, .235, .201 before he started "cheating again". In the early 1990's. He would have been done and never came back without the roids. Not a hall of famer in my book.
 
Gotta agree with wild. The whole approach to these guys in their heyday makes the statistical support just not apply. Just think of how many pitchers had to change their approaches because he was a roider.

Hell, think of all the pitching stats screwed up by the roiders.
 
He was definitely a one-dimensional player who only became a Hall of Fame type player because of steroids. The far more interesting cases will be guys like Bonds, A-Rod, and Clemens. Bonds and Clemens were HoF-caliber players before the times they likely started juicing. Bonds, though, is a dirtbag that most people would love to see kept out, and Clemens obviously has made a complete mess of his reputation. And without the juice, A-Rod no doubt has the five-tool talent to be a Hall of Famer. Those are gonna be interesting votes.
 
This is what I think:

Let him in. Let Sosa, Bonds, Clemens in. The fact is, the steroids era is part of baseball history, and MLB turning a blind eye to it for more than a decade is part of that history too. They should have to wear it like a black eye, not sweep it under the rug by denying people who achieved gaudy numbers on steroids access to the hall. If I were a HoF voter I'd consider it a worthy punishment for the league's complicity to make them put together exhibits for the game's most decorated cheaters.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Gotta agree with wild. The whole approach to these guys in their heyday makes the statistical support just not apply. Just think of how many pitchers had to change their approaches because he was a roider.

Hell, think of all the pitching stats screwed up by the roiders.[/QUOTE]You mean the pitchers who were also on steroids?
 
As I said in the McGwire thread, I think he, Bonds, Clemens, Arod etc. should get in.

Just no way to know how many players were juicing, how much it helped, etc. etc.

Just have an exhibit about the steroid era in the Hall, and mention the use on the plaques for players who were caught, admitted using etc. Put asterisks in the record book etc.

It's an era of baseball, it needs to be recognized and noted, not just shunned and ignored IMO. The all should be a museum of baseball first and foremost.
 
I have problems with the 1 dimensional players getting in like McGwire due to cheating. I also have problems because players who put up great numbers that were dwarfed because of the Roiders. Fred McGriff had 498 homeruns, 1500 RBI's and he will never sniff the HOF because he hit 30 HR's, 100 RBI's for 15 seasons legit instead of cheating to get to 600 HR's, 1800 RBI's. The Hall is even more of a joke when Albert Belle didn't even sniff an entrance into the Hall. The guy had 400 HR's, 1200 RBI's in 10 seasons. Belle was easily one of the top 4 players in baseball who played the whole entire 1990's. (Bonds, Griffey, Thomas, Belle)

Imagine the #'s that Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Ken Singleton, etc etc etc would have put up if they had roided? Mattingly's peak ended at 28 years old due to his bad back. He had a couple of ok seasons after and was an above average hitter, ok power and a great 1b. Roids would have made him able to heal better and play more.

Ken Singleton from 1975-1981 had an ops plus every year from 130 to 160. Two top 3 MVP finishes during that span. Imagine the monster numbers he would have put up with a juiced up bat?

Dale Murphy had 400 HR's by the age of 35 when he retired. Imagine what Roids would have done for his career? He isn't even sniffing the HOF, I think he had 12 percent of the vote this year. 2 Time MVP, Gold Glove CF playing in the wasteland called 1980's Braves.

I have to hear that Big Mac deserves to be in because pitchers pitched around him due to his Roids? Get out of here.


You guys want to let in all of the Roid Cheats. Ok but you are going to have to let in all of the borderline players with great numbers who did it clean and by the book.
 
[quote name='klwillis45']False. For starters, he played 16 years with an OBP near .400 (.394 to be exact)[/QUOTE]
He had 5 seasons where his OBP was over .400, and all 5 were seasons in which he had monstrous home run numbers. You can see a similar pattern with Sosa. In the case of Bonds, he always had a high OBP, but it shot up to unprecedented heights once he hit 73 HR.

Edgar Martinez had 9 consecutive seasons with an OBP over .400 while only cracking 30 HR once. Imagine what steroids could've done for his statistics. He's a Hall of Famer. Mark McGwire is not.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']
You guys want to let in all of the Roid Cheats. Ok but you are going to have to let in all of the borderline players with great numbers who did it clean and by the book.[/QUOTE]

I agree. All those guys you mentioned should be in.

Again, I view the hall as something that should be the premiere baseball museum in the world. It should have plaques for all the great players of the era, and not limit it by arbitrary standards like needing 500+ homers, 3,000 hits etc. It should be for all the great players we want future generations to be able to go to the Hall and read about. Just not the absolute cream of the crop IMO.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I agree. All those guys you mentioned should be in.

Again, I view the hall as something that should be the premiere baseball museum in the world. It should have plaques for all the great players of the era, and not limit it by arbitrary standards like needing 500+ homers, 3,000 hits etc. It should be for all the great players we want future generations to be able to go to the Hall and read about. Just not the absolute cream of the crop IMO.[/QUOTE]

Kind of hard to want that when they built it for Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson.
 
Yeah, but it's already gotten watered down from that crazy high standard. I mean, not to pick on him, but Andre Dawson is hardly at the level of those guys. More on par with guys like McGriff, Dale Murphy etc. that you mentioned.

All those types of players should be in the hall IMO.
 
I have no problem with bringing steroid users into the discussion for the Hall of Fame. But I will definitely still stick with what wildpac said. I don't want certain one-dimensional players to get in, when steroids clearly got them there. As I said before, Bonds was a HoF player before he became a freak of nature. If people don't want to vote for him for awhile, because of steroids or because he is a massive dick, that's fine by me, but I do think he should eventually get in. A-Rod and Clemens, too. But I'll stick by my opinion that Big Mac does not belong. Neither does Sosa.

On another point, when it comes to the Hall, I think people need to remember that we shouldn't get wrapped up in the numbers so much. What you need to do is compare the guy to the players of his era. Was he one of the best players in that era? That's why Jim Rice finally got in. He was a feared slugger of that era. And this is another reason why you can really say Big Mac does not belong. Sure, he hit a ton of home runs, but everyone was hitting a ton of homeruns in that era.
 
If Mac and Sosa don't get in, they're should at least be an exhibit about their 1998 home run race that really fired up interest in baseball after the strike had nearly killed it. Mention the roid issue as part of it.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, but it's already gotten watered down from that crazy high standard. I mean, not to pick on him, but Andre Dawson is hardly at the level of those guys. More on par with guys like McGriff, Dale Murphy etc. that you mentioned.

All those types of players should be in the hall IMO.[/QUOTE]
Andre Dawson was the 2nd guy in the history of the game to have 400 HR and 300 steals. The first was Willie Mays, the only other was Bonds. He won an MVP, 8 Gold Gloves, and was an 8 time All Star. McGriff accumulated more HR in his career by being a middling power hitter in an era with more home runs. Fred McGriff has nothing on Andre Dawson.

If you want to see what Bonds might've been without steroids, look at Andre Dawson.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Andre Dawson was the 2nd guy in the history of the game to have 400 HR and 300 steals. The first was Willie Mays, the only other was Bonds. He won an MVP, 8 Gold Gloves, and was an 8 time All Star. McGriff accumulated more HR in his career by being a middling power hitter in an era with more home runs. Fred McGriff has nothing on Andre Dawson.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I was just saying Dawson is one of those players at the top of the second tier of great players (someone like McGriff is in th elower part of that 2nd tier), and that there are many of those in the hall and just not the cream of the crop like Babe Ruth, Willie Mays etc.

Anyway, I've just always found sports hall of fames stupid personally. And would love to see someone just make some great museums for the sports that don't require people being voted in to get a plaque with their info etc.

The history of the game shouldn't be limited to the select few players who can get 75% of the vote from writers. We should have more comprehensive museums for sports that cover all the great players from each era.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Andre Dawson was the 2nd guy in the history of the game to have 400 HR and 300 steals. The first was Willie Mays, the only other was Bonds. He won an MVP, 8 Gold Gloves, and was an 8 time All Star. McGriff accumulated more HR in his career by being a middling power hitter in an era with more home runs. Fred McGriff has nothing on Andre Dawson.

If you want to see what Bonds might've been without steroids, look at Andre Dawson.[/QUOTE] The Hawk also had an OBP just over .320, the worst of any corner OF in the hall. Gold Gloves & All-Star appearances don't mean crap either since the winners are frequently comical, see Gutierrez not winning this year. Dawson is highly debatable as a HOF, as is Big Mac.

I agree that the Crime Dog shouldn't get in though if he stuck around for 7 more dingers they'd probably let him.
 
Another important point I forgot to mention earlier is that it seems like McGwire still hasn't told us the whole truth. For one, he claims he only took steroids for their healing properties, and that he honestly believes they had no performance-enhancing effects on him. Well, in that case, he is either lying or is delusional. Secondly, he says he only did small amounts of steroids, but that seems unlikely, if you believe your eyes and what that FBI informant had to say.
 
[quote name='klwillis45']The Hawk also had an OBP just over .320, the worst of any corner OF in the hall. Gold Gloves & All-Star appearances don't mean crap either since the winners are frequently comical, see Gutierrez not winning this year. Dawson is highly debatable as a HOF, as is Big Mac.

I agree that the Crime Dog shouldn't get in though if he stuck around for 7 more dingers they'd probably let him.[/QUOTE]
OBP wasn't his job. In that era, if you were taking pitches and walking instead of swinging the bat and driving in runs, as a power hitter, you had the wrong approach. You didn't just "keep the line moving" in order to give your 2B, SS, C, and P, who might be batting around the Mendoza Line, the opportunity to drive you in instead. And he wasn't exactly Dave Kingman, either.

Aside from that, 400 HR/300 SB is a major historical accomplishment in and of itself, something only 3 people have ever done. He was a great defensive player, 5 tool player, he could hit the ball to all fields. 2700 hits, 1500 RBI, 400 HR. No one who has done that is not in the Hall of Fame.
 
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Though awards can sometimes be a joke, when a guy has eight Gold Gloves and eight All-Star Game appearances, there is usually a legitimate reason why. Dawson was a gifted athlete who did everything on a baseball field well. And if he didn't play on that shitty field up in Montreal for so long, he probably would have had 500 home runs and 400 steals. He was basically being held together by a miracle the second half of his career. And he still had that amazing '87 season.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']OBP wasn't his job.[/QUOTE]
Complete horseshit argument. Are you a grizzled old beat writer?

Not making outs is every hitters job. Sure, all non-outs are not created equal but that why they have slg.
 
[quote name='klwillis45']Complete horseshit argument. Are you a grizzled old beat writer?

Not making outs is every hitters job. Sure, all non-outs are not created equal but that why they have slg.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but that was a completely different era. There was no value to getting on base when the guys behind you in general are shockingly bad hitters. Plus the Expos lineup was worse than most.

If your job was to put the bat on the ball and drive in runs, and you were a patient hitter that took a lot of walks, you were considered selfish for not sacrificing your own stats for the team to score more runs. Just look at Wade Boggs and how he was viewed during his playing days. That sounds completely absurd to us, but thats how it was in baseball.

Your looking at Dawson by the standards and expectations of the present day. You have to consider each player within the context of the era in which he played.
 
I'll even grant you that his OBP was pretty awful, and there really isn't any excuse for it. At the end of the day, the man drove in nearly 1600 runs. He is 34th all-time. Look at the guys ahead of him. Just about all of them are in the HoF. Those that aren't are not eligible, yet. Harold Baines doesn't fall into either category, but once again, you have to look at each player in context. Was Baines a five-tool player? No. Was Baines, at any point in his carer, a fear hitter or considered an elite player? Not really.
 
Making outs has ALWAYS been bad. The cop out arguement about era has zero merit. It's just a cover for the fact that the Hawk wasn't as good as other HOFs who could slug & get on base.
 
[quote name='klwillis45']Making outs has ALWAYS been bad. The cop out arguement about era has zero merit. It's just a cover for the fact that the Hawk wasn't as good as other HOFs who could slug & get on base.[/QUOTE]
Whatever. No eligible player with 2700 hits, 1500 RBI, and 400 HR is not in the Hall. Only 11 eligible players have done that. You can even take out the hits, and no eligible player with those numbers is not in. There are a couple coming up who will not be, but Dawson played in a relatively low scoring era for most of his career, certainly his best years.

His OBP may not be at an elite level, it certainly wasn't deficient for his era, but that is still balanced out by his SB numbers, excellent defensive play, 5 tool ability, etc that many others lack.
 
Right, I'm not saying it's a travesty that's he's in. But it wasn't a slam dunk either with that sizeable hole in his game.
Just like Martinez gets docked for providing no defensive value. (though he should make it in eventually as well)
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Andre Dawson was the 2nd guy in the history of the game to have 400 HR and 300 steals. The first was Willie Mays, the only other was Bonds. He won an MVP, 8 Gold Gloves, and was an 8 time All Star. McGriff accumulated more HR in his career by being a middling power hitter in an era with more home runs. Fred McGriff has nothing on Andre Dawson.

If you want to see what Bonds might've been without steroids, look at Andre Dawson.[/QUOTE]


http://espn.go.com/page2/s/caple/030709.html

That article sums up why the Crime Dog should be in the Hall. Crime Dog =Super Star.

Also you are discounting Bonds by saying he was in the league of the Hawk. Bonds was a beast before roids and one of the best players ever. Aside from not getting it done in the playoffs before roids he was a combination of speed and power that few have ever had.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Andre Dawson was the 2nd guy in the history of the game to have 400 HR and 300 steals. The first was Willie Mays, the only other was Bonds. He won an MVP, 8 Gold Gloves, and was an 8 time All Star. McGriff accumulated more HR in his career by being a middling power hitter in an era with more home runs. Fred McGriff has nothing on Andre Dawson.

If you want to see what Bonds might've been without steroids, look at Andre Dawson.[/QUOTE]


Alfonso Soriano is going to be 34 next year and has 300 HR's and 260 SB's. In 4-5 years he is going to have 400 HR's and 300 SB's. He has similiar OPS, SLG, OPS, OPS Plus to Andre Dawson. Soriano also had one 40/40 season and three 35 HR plus/ 30 plus SB seasons. Two of those three years he just barely missed out on 40/40. Guy was a hair away from having 3 40/40 seasons. Dawson had 1 season above 35 HR's, Soriano has had 4 so far. Dawson had 3 seasons over 30, Soriano has had 5. Dawson had 4 seasons over 25, Soriano has 7.

Stolen Bases. Soriano has three 40 SB seasons, Dawson has none. Soriano's 2002 season was better than any single season by Dawson. Soriano in the leadoff spot in 2002 had a .300 Batting Average, 51 doubles, 39 HR's, 41 SB's, 102 RBI's, 209 hits and 128 runs. IN THE LEADOFF SPOT! Soriano's 40/40 Season in 2006 for a crappy Nationals team playing half of his game in an extreme pitchers park is better than any single season by Dawson. Is Soriano a Hall of Famer? Hell no. Soriano also has another 6-7 years to play to catch up and pass Dawson.

McGriff was better than Dawson every single day of the week and twice on Sunday. You are acting like Fred broke into the Majors in 95 during the Steroid boom and hit his peak in 1998. McGriff came up in 1987 and ever year after had 30 HR's and 100 RBI's. Fred in 1991 had 106 RBI's and 31 JR's for a Padres team that hit 120 HR's and scored 600 runs. Other years were just like that. Mark Teixeira just hit 39 HR's and 120 RBI's for a Yankees team that had 240 HR's and 900 Runs. Who had the better season and was more valuable to their team? Teixeira or McGriff? Definately wasn't Mark.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']http://espn.go.com/page2/s/caple/030709.html

That article sums up why the Crime Dog should be in the Hall. Crime Dog =Super Star.

Also you are discounting Bonds by saying he was in the league of the Hawk. Bonds was a beast before roids and one of the best players ever. Aside from not getting it done in the playoffs before roids he was a combination of speed and power that few have ever had.[/QUOTE]
Yes, a few. Like Andre Dawson. Bonds in his earlier days was compared to Dawson in his prime. By the time Dawson left Montreal his knees were wrecked and he wasn't the same guy, but he put up the power numbers. People don't really remember him for what he did in Montreal, but again, Mays, Bonds, and Dawson are the only 400HR/300SB guys in the history of the league.

I never knew that Tom Emanski commercial went all the way back to 91. I knew it was old but, wow.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']Alfonso Soriano is going to be 34 next year and has 300 HR's and 260 SB's. In 4-5 years he is going to have 400 HR's and 300 SB's. He has similiar OPS, SLG, OPS, OPS Plus to Andre Dawson. Soriano also had one 40/40 season and three 35 HR plus/ 30 plus SB seasons. Two of those three years he just barely missed out on 40/40. Guy was a hair away from having 3 40/40 seasons. Dawson had 1 season above 35 HR's, Soriano has had 4 so far. Dawson had 3 seasons over 30, Soriano has had 5. Dawson had 4 seasons over 25, Soriano has 7.

Stolen Bases. Soriano has three 40 SB seasons, Dawson has none. Soriano's 2002 season was better than any single season by Dawson. Soriano in the leadoff spot in 2002 had a .300 Batting Average, 51 doubles, 39 HR's, 41 SB's, 102 RBI's, 209 hits and 128 runs. IN THE LEADOFF SPOT! Soriano's 40/40 Season in 2006 for a crappy Nationals team playing half of his game in an extreme pitchers park is better than any single season by Dawson. Is Soriano a Hall of Famer? Hell no.[/QUOTE]
Soriano played in a different era, you can't really compare the numbers. Dawson was one of the elite power bats in the league even with bad knees. Plus Soriano is a shitty defensive player and certainly will not have 2700 hits or 1500 RBI. Dawson has 4 less RBI than George Brett and 100+ more HR.

Dawson played in a low scoring era, with his prime in a low scoring ballpark (Olympic Stadium). There are pedestrian players in the league today who will approach the power numbers of the greats from that era but it doesn't matter. For Hall of Fame voting, you're supposed to be compared to your peers. Dawson stood out.

You'd think 75% of the BBWAA doesn't agree with me on this. Thank god that most of them were alive to see people play before the 90s.
 
So Beltran gets surgery on his knee and the Mets were supposedly not aware of this?!? The season has not even started and they have lost one of their core players for an unknown amount of time....what a mess.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Soriano played in a different era, you can't really compare the numbers. Dawson was one of the elite power bats in the league even with bad knees. Plus Soriano is a shitty defensive player and certainly will not have 2700 hits or 1500 RBI. Dawson has 4 less RBI than George Brett and 100+ more HR.

Dawson played in a low scoring era, with his prime in a low scoring ballpark (Olympic Stadium). There are pedestrian players in the league today who will approach the power numbers of the greats from that era but it doesn't matter. For Hall of Fame voting, you're supposed to be compared to your peers. Dawson stood out.

You'd think 75% of the BBWAA doesn't agree with me on this. Thank god that most of them were alive to see people play before the 90s.[/QUOTE]

But you are the first one to point out that Dawson along with Willie both had 400 HR's and 300 SB's. They played in different eras. You act like players in previous eras never hit homeruns or drove in runs. You never said anything about my stats about McGriff. Guy year in and year out had 30 HR's, 100 RBI's for teams that scored 600 runs. Soriano might be horrible on defense but he is just as great if not better than Dawson at the plate while Soriano was a LEADOFF Hitter.

Dave Kingman averaged 30 HR's, 100 RBI's in his last 3 seasons (ages 35-37). He hit 450 HR, 1200 RBI's and came up several years before Dawson. He also had the honor of playing in pitchers parks like Candlestick, Shea and Oakland. Imagine if he complied stats like Dawson til the age of 41 instead of retiring at 37. He is no shape or form a HOF but he would have easily had 540 HR's and 1600 RBI's if he stuck around too long like the Hawk.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Yeah, I caught that before. Honestly, I couldn't even mock my Met fan friends. There's no more fun in it, anymore.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, my non Met fan friends don't really mock me anymore. I got used to it so I guess they figured it wasn't worth it anymore.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']You never said anything about my stats about McGriff. Guy year in and year out had 30 HR's, 100 RBI's for teams that scored 600 runs.[/quote]
Yes I did. I said McGriff was a middling power hitter for many many years in an offensive era and accumulated stats. He was not a dominant, elite player at any point in his career. Never had a real dominant year. Led one of the leagues in HR's a couple times but never led baseball in anything.

[quote name='wildcpac']Soriano might be horrible on defense but he is just as great if not better than Dawson at the plate while Soriano was a LEADOFF Hitter.[/quote]
Thats laughable and ruins your credibility with regard to anything that happened in the past... Dawson was one of the very best power hitters in baseball for 15 years.

[quote name='wildcpac']Dave Kingman averaged 30 HR's, 100 RBI's in his last 3 seasons (ages 35-37). He hit 450 HR, 1200 RBI's and came up several years before Dawson. He also had the honor of playing in pitchers parks like Candlestick, Shea and Oakland. Imagine if he complied stats like Dawson til the age of 41 instead of retiring at 37. He is no shape or form a HOF but he would have easily had 540 HR's and 1600 RBI's if he stuck around too long like the Hawk.[/QUOTE]
Dave Kingman: 1500 hits, not in the Hall
Andre Dawson: 2700 hits, in the Hall

Its not just 400HR/300SB. Its 2700 hits and 400 HR that puts him in, nobody who has done that is not in.
 
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Dawson also played 22 years and had 600 walks. Of course you are going to get alot of hits when you dont draw walks. Dawsons only great season came in 1987 when the ball was juiced. Total homeruns dropped close to 1400 in 1988/1989 following 1987. Mike Pagliarulo had 32 homeruns, 90 RBI's in 87. George Bell had 47 homeruns, Wally Joyner had 34, Matt Nokes had 32 and Juan Samuel had 28. Will Clark hit 35 homeruns in 1987 as a 23 year old. He never hit more than 30 for the rest of his long career.

Fred McGriff year in and year out hit 30 homeruns, 100 RBI's for teams that scored 600-700 runs and had team total of 120 homeruns. Quit acting like he played on the Yankees the last 15 years or the mid 90's Indians teams. Fred had 2500 hits, 493 HR's and 1550 RBI's. He also had 1300 Walks which were 700 more than Dawson and Fred had 600 fewer Plate Appearances . Too bad we cant use the argument that Fred didn't have 2700 hits.

Lets also stop acting like Fred benefited from playing during the "steroid" era. His season totals year in and year out were always plus or minus 4 of 33 Homeruns and plus or minus 5 of 103 RBI's. His stats never had some explosion due to the period.



People are crying for Mark McGwire to get into the Hall. He only had 1600 career hits. I am not calling for Kingman to be a Hall of Famer. He was just as 1 dimensional as Mark without having the Steroid needle stuck up his ass. I compared Kingman to Dawson because you kept harping about HR's and RBI's. Well Kingman had more HR's in 5 less seasons and would have had more RBI's if he stuck around til the age of 41 like Dawson.
 
McGriff just wasn't a great player at any point in his career. His consistency is noteworthy but the Hall of Fame is for great players, not very good ones who did it for a long time.

You keep ignoring the whole package with Dawson. Its not just HR/SB. Its not just Hits/HR. Its not just HR/RBI, and its not even just the offensive numbers. Its everything. 3 people have 400 HR and 300 SB (Mays, Bonds, Dawson). 5 people have hit 400 HR and won 8 Gold Gloves (Mays, Bonds, Schmidt, Griffey, Dawson). 16 people have 2700 hits and 400 HR (Aaron, Musial, Yaz, Mays, Murray, Ripken, Winfield, Palmeiro, Robinson, Bonds, Ott, Ruth, Griffey, Gehrig, Ted Williams, and Dawson). 36th all time in HR, 34th in RBI, 48th in doubles, 45th in hits, 25th in total bases. 4 Silver Sluggers, an MVP, twice 2nd in MVP voting. McGriff was 4th once and never higher than 6th after.

The guy was a phenomenal 5 tool player before the concrete in Montreal ruined his knees, and he still played the field pretty well and hit the ball just as well after. Its not just the offensive numbers. Everything the guy did before he got hurt, he did as well or better than anyone in baseball. Yes, the 12 knee surgeries took their toll over his career.

All Kingman did well was hit HR because he swung for the fences every time he was up. He did nothing else even well, let alone at a HoF level. Never hit for average, hit shockingly few doubles, only hit 100 RBI twice.
 
Andre Dawson outside of one year never put up a hall of fame season. That one year also came in the juice ball season when complete scrubs hit 30 homeruns plus. Matt Nokes, Mike Pags, Wally Joyner all had 30 plus that year. Big Mac was a rookie and hit 49. George Bell hit 47 that season as a 27 year old. He never finished with more than 25 for the rest of his career. I am not going to drool all over what Dawson did that season because the baseball itself was on steroids.

You also act like Dawson played on a bunch of crap teams. Dawson had Carter, Raines, Tony Perez and Tim Wallach in Montreal. Dawson had Ryne Sandberg, Dunston and Mark Grace in Chicago.

I never called Kingman Great or a Hall of Famer. I called him 1 Dimensional.

McGriff wasn't great? The guy was 1 consistent and had 490 Homeruns and 1550 RBI's. If it weren't for the strike in 1994 and 1995 where players missed 50 games in 94 and 20 games in 95, Fred would have had 500 Homeruns and 1600 RBI's easily.

You talk about Dawsons career stats but you never mention that the guy was a complier who stuck around far too long and played til he was 41.
 
Did the Mets really need to bring in Gary Matthews? Sure, the Angels ate almost all of the contract, but there's a reason for that. He was a cancer in the clubhouse, and he will be the same thing in the Met clubhouse, especially after Omar made it clear that there will a competition for the fill-in centerfielder role. Plus, what are they gonna do with him when Beltran comes back? He'll end up stewing on the bench, just like he did in Anaheim.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Did the Mets really need to bring in Gary Matthews? Sure, the Angels ate almost all of the contract, but there's a reason for that. He was a cancer in the clubhouse, and he will be the same thing in the Met clubhouse, especially after Omar made it clear that there will a competition for the fill-in centerfielder role. Plus, what are they gonna do with him when Beltran comes back? He'll end up stewing on the bench, just like he did in Anaheim.[/QUOTE]

Omar Minaya.

That right there should answer your question.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Did the Mets really need to bring in Gary Matthews? Sure, the Angels ate almost all of the contract, but there's a reason for that. He was a cancer in the clubhouse, and he will be the same thing in the Met clubhouse, especially after Omar made it clear that there will a competition for the fill-in centerfielder role. Plus, what are they gonna do with him when Beltran comes back? He'll end up stewing on the bench, just like he did in Anaheim.[/QUOTE]

Yet another dumb move by mets management. First, i would never trade a bullpen arm for a weak bat..and especially not for GARY MATTHEWS JR. I couldnt see why Angel Pagan wouldnt be the first choice to back up Beltran at CF. its not like he had a terrible season as a starter. He was really solid at the plate and on the field. It shows you either the lack of control minaya has or the stupidity minaya has.pretty much every met fan has this as a head scratcher.

[quote name='DomLando']Omar Minaya.

That right there should answer your question.[/QUOTE]

QFT on that my friend!

EDIT:so with all this hall of fame talk and roid users getting in...does that mean Bert Blyleven gets in too?
 
A couple of friends and I were discussing the Hall the other day, and we got into a conversation about what potential future Hall of Famers were on our favorite teams. These are the Yankees I came up with.

Guaranteed
Rivera (greatest closer ever, one of the most clutch postseason performers ever, 1st ballot)
Jeter (will end up with 3000+ hits, a shit load of runs scored, a bunch of rings, and a lot of postseason records, 1st ballot)

Would have been guaranteed
A-Rod (how the steroid issue lingers will determine his fate, doesn't seem vilified as much as other figures caught up in the era)

Borderline
Pettitte (lots of post season success and 229 career wins, but a high ERA and wins are bolstered by having played with such a great offense)
Posada (best offensive catcher of the decade, but never considered a good defensive catcher)

Time will tell
Mark Teixeira (just has to stay healthy, will clobber a ton of homeruns in Yankee Stadium)
Robinson Cano (has put up sick numbers for a second baseman, but his head is not always there)
CC Sabathia (30 this year, but you have to wonder how his body will hold up to the rigors of pitching into the mid to late 30s)
 
You know, I didn't have any problem with the Yankees playing hardball with Damon and saying that they have a "budget." Dealing with that douchebag Boras can be rough, so you need to push right back. No reason to overpay him or sign him to a long-term deal. But for Cashman to come out and say, "His abilities exceed my physical ability to keep my finances afloat," that's just really silly. I didn't know he was the GM of the Pirates, now.
 
Arod is getting in the Hall of Fame. He is signed til 2017 and wouldn't be up for election until early 2023. Time is going to heal the wounds of the Steroid Era and especially when other cheats are exposed as well.


Yankees signed Randy Winn to a 1 year, 2 million deal. So long Damon. Thats what you get for being greedy. Enjoy being in last place.
 
I love the fact that everytime Damon has opened his mouth in the last couple of days, he just proves what we already knew about him and Boras. This was all about money and ego. Boras kept trying to bash the Yankees in the media, saying they never offered Damon any kind of contract. But Damon admitted yesterday that he told Boras to tell the Yankees to not even bother making any offer under $13 million a year. What a joke. And I love how now Detroit was where he ALWAYS wanted to be. Boras should focus on getting Damon a babysitter, so they can be there to shut him up when he starts rambling.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']I love the fact that everytime Damon has opened his mouth in the last couple of days, he just proves what we already knew about him and Boras. This was all about money and ego. Boras kept trying to bash the Yankees in the media, saying they never offered Damon any kind of contract. But Damon admitted yesterday that he told Boras to tell the Yankees to not even bother making any offer under $13 million a year. What a joke. And I love how now Detroit was where he ALWAYS wanted to be. Boras should focus on getting Damon a babysitter, so they can be there to shut him up when he starts rambling.[/QUOTE]


Damon is a stuttering douche. Here are a couple of highlights from his press conference yesterday.


1. Stuttering every 3 words.

2. Saying how he always wanted to play in Detroit. Especially after he left the Red Sox following 2005.

3. Having his name back on his uniform again is "cool" and a reason why he wanted to sign with the Tigers.

4. That the Yankees were happy that the Twins knocked out the Tigers in the 1 game playoff because the Tigers would have beat the Yankees in the playoffs.


Damon is a sad money whore who ruined his legacy in two of the greatest baseball markets. He will forever be hated by the Sox Fans for going to the Yankees and winning. To think he was an integral part of the 2004 team and pissed that away. Guy would have been a Red Sox Legend. Then he pisses on his NY Legacy with those stupid comments.


I am waiting for the 2010 highlight film of him playing LF in Comerica like a 5 year old. I also cant wait to see the effect that huge ball park is going to have on his Yankee Stadium homerun swing.
 
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