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Personal Paypal payments for purchases and payers paying Paypal fees prohibited.


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#31 Aenzo

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:18 PM

If someone was going to scam, especially a big amount, couldn't they just close their paypal account after taking the money out from their bank or spending it even if it wasn't gifted?
Like the guy mentioned above - if they're going to do it, they're going to do it. I know you have a slightly better chance with some paypal support, but I have heard nothing but horror stories about that anyways.

Best bet in my opinion anyway, is to do simply what we've all been doing for awhile now, using instincts and the feedback system.
Not 100% fail-safe, but the best tools we can use.

Regardless, this is just 1 CAG's 2 cents. To be fair, I think a poll should be implemented, like we normally do for some decisions.
Or are all the mods and cheapy reinforcing this, so no say in it at all?
Don't want to make it a bigger issue than should be, but it doesn't hurt to see our options.

Exactly, If its a huge sum of money I understand for the Paypal "protection" but if its a low amount and the person you are dealing with is a reputable member, I don't really see the damage being done. Either way, I've always thought Paypal is trash in my opinion. I'm not a happy eBay or Paypal user, but sometimes there isn't any other better alternative to sell than that. Craigslist ends lowballing me to helll half the time so I have no other choice than to end up putting stuff on eBay sometimes.

Now Paypal isn't bad when you are paying for stuff, but when it comes to selling, Paypal lacks professionalism. There are multiple horror stories as you've mentioned of people making chargebacks and ending up receiving both ends of the deal.

I had this crap happen to me with my iPhone 3G a year ago, the fucking lady only took my hard case, Invisible Shield Protectors, and the dock. Either way if she had taken the phone I swear I would have fought tooth and nail to get it back, I would go as far as heading to where they live to give them a proper 'lesson'. Anyways, after multiple arguments I still lost the case with PP and eBay and she got her money back, I ended up being called by this goddamn Paypal agent to pay up the $640 something dollars I owed them since they reimbursed the woman. I paid up, I still lost all my fees associated with the item and got back a used iPhone. Thats where I started learning how much eBay and Paypal TRULY suck. Unfortunately items I sell aren't so easily sold in other places such as Craigslist. I'll get lowball'd so up to eBay it goes and have those leeching bastards get a slice of my money.

I've heard people using Amazon for paying stuff, and I've recently registered there but since I'm not yet comfortable or know how it completely works out yet, I still use Paypal. I'll definitely have to start focusing on using Amazon Payments from now on though.

#32 Ryukahn

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:26 PM

Fair enough shrike. I just wish there was some kind of universal policy on the paypal fees if we are going to stick to this. As a seller, I always eat the fees myself if someone wasn't comfortable with a gift payment, since I view that as my job as a seller. However, when I look at most people's lists, they expect the buyer to cover any fees, meaning I would be covering fees no matter what I am doing. As a result I rarely buy here and only did so recently since the stuff was digital transactions and I was fine with gift payments for them (don't want people having my address in digital transactions anyway). Taking that option aways means I probably won't be buying anything from people here.

#33 JP

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:32 PM

Well I understand the reasoning behind it but I do think this will kill a lot of the Steam 4-pack groups when they come along. That was the only time I requested gift payments.

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#34 Kendro

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 02:13 PM

Had no idea about Amazon Payments. Will definitely look into them. I'm tired of PayPal taking $3+ for every $100 I receive.

#35 token2k6

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 02:50 PM

Just to be clear, Amazon payments are simply the sending of Amazon Gift Cards right?

#36 GraftonWVDiskExchang

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 03:44 PM

You really don't see that damage being done? You don't see that you're violating a company's terms of use? You also don't see that you are literally stealing from Paypal since you are using one of their services and not paying for it?

What if it was you that was losing money because your customers were finding ways to skirt around from paying you for using your services? Would you see it then?

I'm 100% for paying companies for using their services. It's this simple folks--if you don't want to pay a company for using their services, simply DON'T USE THEM!

I have no issue whatsoever paying Paypal for their services. I have used them for years and they have literally saved my ass on more than one occasion. I've never been denied a refund whenever I run across a crook...not once! People who complain about Paypal usually are the ones that don't understand how their system works.

I have had one chargeback myself ($200), so I know how that feels...but why you blame Paypal and/or Ebay is beyond me. Neither of those companies are the ones that initiated the chargeback (it was the woman!) and as far as chargebacks are concerned, it's always done through a credit card company...so your points aren't really valid. It certainly looks like you are blaming Paypal because they didn't "back you up". How could they? Going by that mentality, anybody who has ever gotten ripped off here on this site should be blaming this site also...makes about as much sense.

Neither Paypal nor Ebay are responsible for making people act like rats and doing this crap. If anything, you should be blaming credit card companies for making it easy for people to pull these stunts! A chargeback is almost always certain to go in the initiator's favor. I had all the proof in the world that this crook that did the chargeback on me had certainly bought the item (he even left me positive feedback on Ebay!) but they wound up making me pay him back, plus he kept my items on top of it!

Like they say--don't shoot the messenger! :D

And I do hope that the mods on this site really keep their eyes on people who insist that buyers pay for Paypal fees. If anything, you should automatically add it to your asking price...that way it's paid, and already included in the price of your item. Asking a person to pay extra for something that you should absorb the price of is nothing more than milking your buyer for more than they should be paying for. Anybody that asks me to pay their Paypal fees will get their message forwarded to a mod. If I see any posting asking for a buyer to pay Paypal fees, I will also make it a point to forward it to a mod for review.

You want to accept a payment via Paypal, pay the fees!



I don't really see the damage being done.



#37 DAWG26

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 03:56 PM

There are lots of respected CAGs that ask you to cover the paypal fees. I dont do it but I understand those that do. You really make yourself sound like a jack ass by threatning to report people who do that. Please remind me to never trade with you if I ever send you a pm!

#38 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 03:57 PM

Another thing, about Paypal fees. The payee eats the fees, regardless of who's picking them up. Paypal doesn't mandate the fees being picked up by the payer, though it's considered to be the "right" thing to do. I do try to ask the payee if Paypal fees are figured into their price and if not, I add them into my payment.

When I ask for Paypal payments, I always have the fees figured into the money I'll be netting after fees, so it never ends up being an issue. The Paypal fees are what it costs to use them for payment. I'm looking into Amazon Payments myself, since having no fees is a nice thing.

The Paypal calculator is a good way to see fees on both sides of the transaction, so both parties know the money pre-fees and post-fees.

Just to be clear, Amazon payments are simply the sending of Amazon Gift Cards right?

No, Amazon Payments are their flavor of Paypal. Log into your Amazon account and look on the right side of the page for "Amazon Payments Account".

Main page for it:
https://payments.ama.../sdui/index.htm

Edited by shrike4242, 27 January 2010 - 04:09 PM.


#39 bvharris

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 03:59 PM

And I do hope that the mods on this site really keep their eyes on people who insist that buyers pay for Paypal fees. If anything, you should automatically add it to your asking price...that way it's paid, and already included in the price of your item. Asking a person to pay extra for something that you should absorb the price of is nothing more than milking your buyer for more than they should be paying for. Anybody that asks me to pay their Paypal fees will get their message forwarded to a mod. If I see any posting asking for a buyer to pay Paypal fees, I will also make it a point to forward it to a mod for review.


While I don't disagree with the general point of your post, are you fucking serious with this? A sanctimonious lecture from someone completely new to the trading forums is ridiculous enough, but you're basically saying you're going to cause a stink about anyone who even suggests that a buyer pays paypal fees? And report them to a mod as if they've committed some major violation? Good luck getting anyone in the trading forum who reads this post to trade with you.

I think most people will simply be exploring other options for payment, I know that's what I'll be doing. As long as other options of payment are provided, I don't see anything particularly wrong with asking people to cover the fees if they choose to use paypal. And for you, or anyone, to throw such a hissy fit over something which usually amounts to about fifty cents far surpasses the ridiculous and borders on me wondering whether you were going for a well-disguised satire of a condescending twit. If so, well played.

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#40 Anhmeister

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 04:16 PM

Just signed up for Amazon Payments and I have to say that it looks like a carbon copy of Paypal. What I want to know is how good is their dispute handling system? Has anyone had to use that?

#41 token2k6

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 04:18 PM

No, Amazon Payments are their flavor of Paypal. Log into your Amazon account and look on the right side of the page for "Amazon Payments Account".

Main page for it:
https://payments.ama.../sdui/index.htm


thanks, signed up, bookmarked! seems harmless and a lot like paypal..
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#42 bvharris

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 04:20 PM

thanks, signed up, bookmarked! seems harmless and a lot like paypal..


I signed up for it as well, we'll see how it works. It was very easy to link my checking account to it, and it seems pretty straightforward in general.

I assume there are no ToS issues here, since shrike has endorsed it essentially?

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#43 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 04:49 PM

I signed up for it as well, we'll see how it works. It was very easy to link my checking account to it, and it seems pretty straightforward in general.

I assume there are no ToS issues here, since shrike has endorsed it essentially?

I'm not endorsing Amazon Payments over Paypal, I'm just trying to point out there are other options out there. Going back up in the thread, other CAGs mentioned about it. It seems to be the closest "Paypal-like" experience from another vendor.

Here's a link to the info about sending money and receiving money:
https://payments.ama...onal/webpay/faq

I signed up for it, just to give me another avenue to use for payments. And looking over the FAQ, as stated by another CAG, there's no fees to send or receive money through Amazon Payments.

#44 PenguinoMF

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:04 PM

I'm confused about something. Are you saying its okay to charge the fees to the buyer if they are paying with paypal and charge them the regular price if they pay with Amazon or another form of payment?

Example: I'm selling something and I want $30 for it. If they pay with paypal they have to send me $31.20 and if they pay with Amazon then they send me $30.

#45 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:16 PM

I'm confused about something. Are you saying its okay to charge the fees to the buyer if they are paying with paypal and charge them the regular price if they pay with Amazon or another form of payment?

Example: I'm selling something and I want $30 for it. If they pay with paypal they have to send me $31.20 and if they pay with Amazon then they send me $30.

Paypal fees are paid by the payee, regardless if the payer is picking them up or not. For me, I slipstream the fees into any prices I post, since I know it's a cost for using Paypal.

Amazon Payments doesn't charge any fees for their service, so if you send $30 via Amazon Payments, you get $30. If that same money was sent via Paypal, you'd net $28.83 after fees. As you said, if they send you $31.20, you net out $30.

Which does bring up the issue of surcharging for fees. It's spelled out in section 4.5 of Paypal's user agreement about surcharging for fees. Right here:

4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.


This says you can't surcharge for Paypal fees, like vendors can't charge a surcharge for using a credit card. Obviously, we've seen vendors can provide a "cash discount" in lieu of that.

My recommendation is pick one price, regardless of payment method, and have that be your set price.

#46 Ryukahn

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:22 PM

I signed up for it, just to give me another avenue to use for payments. And looking over the FAQ, as stated by another CAG, there's no fees to send or receive money through Amazon Payments.


This confuses me, as the info I looked up said that you'd be charged 2.9% +$0.30 per transaction received. Where do you see that there is no fees for getting paid with amazon payment, as all I see is them saying there is no fees for paying with it?

#47 kurrptsenate

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:58 PM

Paypal fees are paid by the payee, regardless if the payer is picking them up or not. For me, I slipstream the fees into any prices I post, since I know it's a cost for using Paypal.


Basically, you're saying you go against 4.5, but "hide it" as if you were not. Am I correct in this assumption? If not, please explain

#48 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:59 PM

Basically, you're saying you go against 4.5, but "hide it" as if you were not. Am I correct in this assumption? If not, please explain

No, I'm not saying that I'm going against it. If I'm selling an item and I'm offering $30 for it, I know that I'm getting $1.17 taken out as Paypal fees, so my money after fees is $28.83. I'm not raising the cost of the item I'm selling to $31.20 to cover the fees for "making" $30.00. What Paypal takes out of the transaction is always figured into the pricing, and I'm not raising the price to cover those charges. If I'm using Paypal for payments, I know they're taking a cut of the money.

This confuses me, as the info I looked up said that you'd be charged 2.9% +$0.30 per transaction received. Where do you see that there is no fees for getting paid with amazon payment, as all I see is them saying there is no fees for paying with it?

I'm sorry, it's buried a bit more in the Help/FAQ section than the first couple of pages let on.

You are correct, there are fees associated with using it, and they're the same as Paypal:

https://payments.ama...out?nodeId=6022

From the link above:

Amazon Payments Fees--Checkout by Amazon and Amazon Simple Pay

Fees for payments received using Checkout by Amazon and Amazon Simple Pay vary based on the transaction amount and volume:
For Transactions >= $10:

  • 2.9% + $0.30 for all transactions
Volume Discounts

  • 2.5% + $.30 for all transactions for monthly payment volume from $3k-$10k
  • 2.2% + $.30 for all transactions for monthly payment volume from $10k - $100k
  • 1.9% + $.30 for all transactions for monthly payment volume over $100k
For Transactions < $10:
5.0% + $0.05 for all transactions


Though, on that page, it's unclear if that's for business or not, since there's also this link as well:

https://payments.ama...out?nodeId=6019

There's mentions about fees on from the above link, which is their UA, though it's not specific on what those fees are for.

Elsewhere, here's a link that says there are no fees associated with it:
https://payments.ama...ebpay/faq#wpFee

Specifically:

5. Is there a fee for using Amazon WebPay?No, there is no charge to send money using Amazon WebPay.



#49 token2k6

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:04 PM

just a quick note, when you sign up for Amazon Payments any card you have linked on your Amazon account will get a pending $1 authorization charge. This caused all kinds of chaos when my wife called me up, asking what "stupid thing" I bought for a $1 and why I used a card we weren't supposed to be using b/c she got some email alert?..

#50 Ryukahn

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:06 PM

Elsewhere, here's a link that says there are no fees associated with it:
https://payments.ama...ebpay/faq#wpFee


That's just saying there are no fees to send money, which is the same on paypal, as the fees are incurred by the receiver.

I did notice in the UA that there is a personal account that you can make, which does not accept credit cards. Would this be the account type that people are using to not incur fees when receiving payments?

#51 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:07 PM

just a quick note, when you sign up for Amazon Payments any card you have linked on your Amazon account will get a pending $1 authorization charge. This caused all kinds of chaos when my wife called me up, asking what "stupid thing" I bought for a $1 and why I used a card we weren't supposed to be using b/c she got some email alert?..

It's just an authorization and it drops off in a few days. Paypal does the same thing when verifying a card, so I'm not expecting anything different from Amazon Payments. Amazon itself does the same thing with a new payment method as well.

That's just saying there are no fees to send money, which is the same on paypal, as the fees are incurred by the receiver.

I did notice in the UA that there is a personal account that you can make, which does not accept credit cards. Would this be the account type that people are using to not incur fees when receiving payments?

Since they're carbon-copying Paypal, I'd assume it's the same way for Amazon Payments equivalent, though again, it'll explain it somewhere in the FAQ and online help.

Found the fee information, so yes, it's like Paypal:

9. Payment Terms

9.1 Our Fees. You agree to pay the applicable fees listed on our Fee Schedule ("Fees") whenever you use our Service either directly with us or our Affiliates or through a Provider's Application. Fees only apply when you receive funds so there is no fee for sending payments. If you use our Service through a Provider's Application, you are only responsible for the Fees associated with transactions that you authorize through that Application and for which the Provider notifies you that you are responsible when you register for or use the Application. If you are a Provider, you are responsible for the Fees associated with any transactions processed through your Application unless you or your Application (a) indicate that a user should be charged the applicable fees, (b) notify the user of the applicable Fees, and © obtain an authorization from the user. Providers are not permitted to hold funds on behalf of other users. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we reserve the right to change our Fees. All Balances and all fees, charges, and payments collected or paid through the Service are denominated in U.S. currency.


Fee structure is completely like Paypal, as posted above.

#52 Lucavious

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:09 PM

So does this mean that proper procedure for accepting Paypal payments, unless specifically noted, we should assume the seller should be sent for example $30 for a purchase and NOT $31.20? That would make the process a bit easier.

#53 Ryukahn

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:14 PM

So does this mean that proper procedure for accepting Paypal payments, unless specifically noted, we should assume the seller should be sent for example $30 for a purchase and NOT $31.20? That would make the process a bit easier.


Currently, CAG sellers can tell you to pay the fees if they want, there is no rule against it so it's up to each individual CAG. Of course you can always choose to just not deal with them or tell them no on paying the fees.

#54 Aenzo

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:14 PM

..but why you blame Paypal and/or Ebay is beyond me. Neither of those companies are the ones that initiated the chargeback (it was the woman!) and as far as chargebacks are concerned, it's always done through a credit card company!

I think you misintepreted what I wrote, I could care less about paying Paypal or eBay fees. I've payed well over $800 from fees alone. So having to pay 50 cents for paypal fees to cover small items here is NOT a problem.

I see how you could have misunderstood what I wrote, and yes, of course eBay nor Paypal is responsible for scammers, but when you LAY down proof of what happened, and how the lady shipped back the phone without ever contacting me, the seller, not to mention shipped it back in a USED state, 20 days after the auction ended AND without several of the items I included.

I would at the very least expect a proper solution from Paypal and eBay, Not a robotic message telling me to refund her the cash and that she will have to ship out the item back to me. When IN FACT she already had sent me the phone much before Paypal even authorized it.

So don't give me that crap "don't understand how their system works." I DO expect some sort of explanation at least. If they had given me a valid reason as to why I should refund the money then by all means, alright not a problem. But since they never did, and they just shut down my appeal. It leaves a whole lot to be desired.

Yeah, and your right, I SHOULD blame the credit card company.. But how would I go and do that? Paypal will not dispute a charge back on your behalf, nor can you contact the credit card company to dispute the charge because Paypal does not give enough information about it.

So basically not only could I have lost the phone, but also the payment ends up being reversed and subsequently, I could have lost the phone AND the money.

And thus you are then forced to take the losses. Paypal aren't your Pals. But certainly it seems you think so, so thats all fine and good. But I certainly don't think it so. I still use Paypal after all, as a buyer it's still alright. But then you wonder, why the hell Paypal constantly gets sued if they really are that “great”. But this is going way out of topic here.

#55 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:21 PM

So does this mean that proper procedure for accepting Paypal payments, unless specifically noted, we should assume the seller should be sent for example $30 for a purchase and NOT $31.20? That would make the process a bit easier.

I would take that to be as such, yes. If they say $30 Paypal, and make no reference to the fees, then send them $30. One PM or post for clarification wouldn't be a bad idea if they don't specify it, so there's no confusion.

Currently, CAG sellers can tell you to pay the fees if they want, there is no rule against it so it's up to each individual CAG. Of course you can always choose to just not deal with them or tell them no on paying the fees.

Paypal only specifies that you can't surcharge the price for the fees, so that's obviously open to interpretation. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing prices of "$30 Paypal, $29 via Amazon gift card, money order or concealed cash".

#56 Karma Is a Bish

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:18 PM

I have a student account so I only have one payment option and I think it's a payment that doesn't have fees but isn't a gift so am I still okay?


Never got my answer...
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#57 mistymayem

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:32 PM

Yes can someone please address the fact that student accounts can't send payments the same way as normal accounts??
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#58 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:55 PM

Never got my answer...

I missed the PM from earlier, so let me address that now.

Yes can someone please address the fact that student accounts can't send payments the same way as normal accounts??

They're similar to "normal" Paypal accounts in functionality, though there's a couple of restrictions on them.

Main comparison page:
https://www.paypal.c...PalAccountTypes

Here's the main help page for Student Accounts:
https://www.paypal.c...pentopic=800074

Main Student account infor page:
https://www.paypal.com/student/

The main issue is that Student accounts are hung off of a parent's main Paypal account, so there's some control over those accounts that isn't in a main Paypal account. They take fees for selling of items via Paypal, though they don't take fees for receiving money that isn't done through an item purchase. They're also beholden to the main Paypal account, so there's some fallback if there's an issue with the main account.

Basically, for the purposes of what we're talking about here, they work the same way because they take fees for selling items for others to purchase. Sending money for purchases works the same way, no fees are taken from the payer, only the payee.

#59 Karma Is a Bish

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:02 PM

Now I am confused.

I know I will take fees if I sell something and a user pays as a payment and not a gift. But I am pretty sure that if I pay someone, they don't take fees. I can't chose between a gift and payment option when paying through a student account, and when I have been asked to gift the money to people I have never heard a complaint that there where fees and that I need to cover them.
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#60 yourlefthand

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:12 PM

Aren't most of the fees reduced or eliminated if the funds for the payment come from an existing paypal balance or a checking account?

I have noticed when I have sent money as a gift that if I had paypal funds to cover the transfer it didn't ask me who was covering the fees.