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Personal Paypal payments for purchases and payers paying Paypal fees prohibited.


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#61 mistymayem

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:25 PM

Now I am confused.

I know I will take fees if I sell something and a user pays as a payment and not a gift. But I am pretty sure that if I pay someone, they don't take fees. I can't chose between a gift and payment option when paying through a student account, and when I have been asked to gift the money to people I have never heard a complaint that there where fees and that I need to cover them.


Same here
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#62 spoo

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:30 PM

I just don't 'get' this new rule. Shrike you are quoting PayPal's UA in the OP as the reason for this new no 'gift' option rule but it seams you are fine with sellers breaking a different PayPal UA, surcharges. I can't stand turning a blind eye to one thing but not another, it should be all or nothing.

I completely understand the motives behind this new rule but shouldn't we just discourage personal payments instead of making it a rule? CAG has always been a community/user policing system instead of heavy on the rules. I hate it when bs rules start to pop up, especially if the rule is just going to encourage other activities, surcharges.

This new rule goes against the spirit of CAG, IMHO. I know I'm just a casual trader here but my trading here started out in the old days when we would pick up clearance games for other users and just simple trading. I know many of the power 'traders' here aren't traders but power sellers and this rule is in their favor. If I want to have a long time CAG pick me up a clearance game that I can't get/find I want to send out the $13 as a gift not a purchase because it is a gift since nobody is making any money from this but instead shipping me a game for cost.

Edited by spoo, 27 January 2010 - 09:44 PM.

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#63 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:37 PM

Now I am confused.

I know I will take fees if I sell something and a user pays as a payment and not a gift. But I am pretty sure that if I pay someone, they don't take fees. I can't chose between a gift and payment option when paying through a student account, and when I have been asked to gift the money to people I have never heard a complaint that there where fees and that I need to cover them.

I'm going from what Paypal has posted on their site about the differences between Student accounts and non-student accounts. They say that if you sell something and receive payment for it, you're hit with fees. If you send money to someone to purchase something, you're not assessed fees.

My guess is that they're doing something on Paypal's end to figure out the type of payment and work according for it. I've pulled up everything I can find on Student Accounts, so if there's something else there that's not in the info on the Paypal site, there's nothing I can do to find it

Aren't most of the fees reduced or eliminated if the funds for the payment come from an existing paypal balance or a checking account?

I have noticed when I have sent money as a gift that if I had paypal funds to cover the transfer it didn't ask me who was covering the fees.

It doesn't matter where the payment comes from, if the payment is a purchase payment, fees are deducted from the payee's amount and if it's a personal payment, no fees are assessed. If it's pulled from existing balance in your Paypal account or from another funding method, it doesn't matter.

#64 Tony208

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:46 PM

I don't know if this rule is set in stone yet but I just have one thing to say, this website is cheapassgamer.com, not paypal.com.

If you're dead set on it then I will oblige.

#65 Stoic Person Eater

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:51 PM

just a quick note, when you sign up for Amazon Payments any card you have linked on your Amazon account will get a pending $1 authorization charge. This caused all kinds of chaos when my wife called me up, asking what "stupid thing" I bought for a $1 and why I used a card we weren't supposed to be using b/c she got some email alert?..

Lol, don't let a woman talk to you like that.

#66 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:56 PM

I don't know if this rule is set in stone yet but I just have one thing to say, this website is cheapassgamer.com, not paypal.com.

If you're dead set on it then I will oblige.

I'm very aware of the name of the site.

The information we've been discussing is in Paypal's UA. You're agreeing to it by using the service.

There are other options out there besides Paypal, as we've been explaining, some with fees like Amazon Payments, and others that don't have any, such as sending an Amazon GC.

#67 Stoic Person Eater

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:06 PM

Honestly, what I do with Paypal and the ethics surrounding that are between Paypal and myself. I don't use it that often, but when I do, I'll use it as I see fit.

If I have a Paypal account, that means I've read or atleast said that I have read the UA and will abide by it. As long as I'm not promoting gift payments, CAG doesn't need to worry their little heads about me until Paypal buys this site and starts to charge us to use it too.

#68 spoo

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:09 PM

I'm very aware of the name of the site.

The information we've been discussing is in Paypal's UA. You're agreeing to it by using the service.

Please explain why it is against the rules here on CAG to not use personal payments when purchasing a game but it isn't against the rules here to break a different Paypal UA of surcharges? Having this rule is just encouraging the use of surcharges.
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#69 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:37 PM

Honestly, what I do with Paypal and the ethics surrounding that are between Paypal and myself. I don't use it that often, but when I do, I'll use it as I see fit.

If I have a Paypal account, that means I've read or atleast said that I have read the UA and will abide by it. As long as I'm not promoting gift payments, CAG doesn't need to worry their little heads about me until Paypal buys this site and starts to charge us to use it too.

As you wish. It's between you and Paypal on how you use the site, though you agreed to their UA and all terms of that.

Please explain why it is against the rules here on CAG to not use personal payments when purchasing a game but it isn't against the rules here to break a different Paypal UA of surcharges? Having this rule is just encouraging the use of surcharges.

Paypal's UA says that you can't charge a surcharge for fees. The same is in the MasterCard and Visa merchant agreements for credit card acceptance. Merchants "get around" the charging a surcharge of fees for their credit card processing fees by charging a lesser/cheaper price for cash payments. They're not charging a surchage for the fees, though it's violating the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.

#70 Stoic Person Eater

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:47 PM

As you wish. It's between you and Paypal on how you use the site, though you agreed to their UA and all terms of that.

I may have agreed to their UA, but I also might have crossed my fingers while doing so.

Just kidding, I understand what you're getting at, but I think it's better to mention it and leave it be. If you're going to police the site, you might as well get Paypal to give you a cut of those fees.

#71 luan87us

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:19 PM

Eeeh, this is a bummer rule IMHO. But I guess I will have to follow as it is a rule. I guess from now on it's strictly trading only for me here. No more selling.

#72 Ryukahn

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:23 PM

Can someone explain to me if it is possible to send a regular paypal payment while hiding my street address? My whole reason for using gift payments was due to there not being a street address attached to a gift payment. When I buy digital stuff from people, they do not need to see my address, so I want it hidden.

#73 spoo

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:26 PM

Please explain why it is against the rules here on CAG to not use personal payments when purchasing a game but it isn't against the rules here to break a different Paypal UA of surcharges? Having this rule is just encouraging the use of surcharges.


Paypal's UA says that you can't charge a surcharge for fees. The same is in the MasterCard and Visa merchant agreements for credit card acceptance. Merchants "get around" the charging a surcharge of fees for their credit card processing fees by charging a lesser/cheaper price for cash payments. They're not charging a surchage for the fees, though it's violating the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.

I'm clearly aware of this but you are obviously turning a blind eye on the many trade lists here that links to a PayPal calculator (like the one you link to in the OP) and state if they are using PayPal they need to pay the paypal fee. That isn't a "cash discount" that is a surcharge if using paypal.

My point is that it is bullshit to prohibit one activity that is against PayPal's UA but choose to ignore a different PayPal policy. You should change this to a strong suggestion instead of the law or maybe I'm confused and your aren't banning this practice from CAG but just pointing out that it is against PayPal's UA?

Honestly, what I do with Paypal and the ethics surrounding that are between Paypal and myself. I don't use it that often, but when I do, I'll use it as I see fit.

If I have a Paypal account, that means I've read or atleast said that I have read the UA and will abide by it. As long as I'm not promoting gift payments, CAG doesn't need to worry their little heads about me until Paypal buys this site and starts to charge us to use it too.

As you wish. It's between you and Paypal on how you use the site, though you agreed to their UA and all terms of that.

So it isn't prohibited here?!?

I personally have no problems with either activity but calling one out but not the other is absolutely ridiculous since they both are against PayPal's UA.
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#74 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:38 PM

I'm clearly aware of this but you are obviously turning a blind eye on the many trade lists here that links to a PayPal calculator (like the one you link to in the OP) and state if they are using PayPal they need to pay the paypal fee. That isn't a "cash discount" that is a surcharge if using paypal.

My point is that it is bullshit to prohibit one activity that is against PayPal's UA but choose to ignore a different PayPal policy. You should change this to a strong suggestion instead of the law or maybe I'm confused and your aren't banning this practice from CAG but just pointing out that it is against PayPal's UA?

I'm not turning any blind eye away from that fact. It's been something I had suspected in Paypal's UA, having not read it from top to bottom until just now, and as I have read it, it's something that is going to be addressed. If the payer is forcing the payee to explicitly pay for the fees, that's a violation of the Paypal UA, in the section I listed earlier.

So it isn't prohibited here?!?

I personally have no problems with either activity but calling one out but not the other is absolutely ridiculous since they both are against PayPal's UA.

All the activities in question with Paypal happen on their site, and we have no control over that. We can mandate the prohibition of personal payments and the prevention of Paypal fees being put on the seller, though like everything external to CAG, we have no direct control over that.

I'm not saying that sticking the fees on the payer with Paypal is against the Paypal UA, it is. Getting around that by a "non-Paypal discount" isn't violating the letter of Paypal's UA, it's violating the spirit of it. It's not surcharging fees explicitly, though it's implicitly stated by something else being a lesser price than what someone pays via Paypal.

As I stated, it's the same situation for MC and Visa with their merchants and surcharging their fees to the customer. I don't shop anywhere that does cash discounts on items because that's how they're working around the fees for MC and Visa for credit cards.

This is an attempt to not have us contribute to users violating Paypal's UA by avoiding fees by personal payments and by sticking payers with fees. Ultimately, it's up to the people in question to decide to follow it or not. On the things that we can directly control on here, yes, it's going to be dealt with.

#75 Megiddo_CAG

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:44 PM

I am assuming this applies to gameshares as well?

This really is an offset to gameshares.

#76 shrike4242

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:56 PM

OP has been updated with a wider selection from the Paypal UA about fees, personal payments and purchase payments.

Title has been updated to cover payers not paying Paypal fees, as that's another issue with the Paypal UA, as it's considered to be a surcharge.

I am assuming this applies to gameshares as well?

This really is an offset to gameshares.

It's a purchase for an item. Paypal considers it to be a purchase and its classifiable under a Purchase payment, not a Personal payment.

#77 Lucavious

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:57 PM

Shrike your last post confused me a little bit. Are you saying it will be mandatory that sellers accepting Paypal not attempt to offset the surcharge as well as not allow gift payments, or are you just strongly suggesting they don't because it could potentially lead to problems with Paypal?

#78 Megiddo_CAG

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 11:58 PM

OP has been updated with a wider selection from the Paypal UA about fees, personal payments and purchase payments.

Title has been updated to cover payers not paying Paypal fees, as that's another issue with the Paypal UA, as it's considered to be a surcharge.

It's a purchase for an item. Paypal considers it to be a purchase and its classifiable under a Purchase payment, not a Personal payment.


In the sense that 4 people gift you the paypal, than buy it via gameshare?

#79 allyourblood

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:01 AM

I must agree with those who are puzzled about supporting one of Paypal's policies (no gifting for payments) and turning a blind eye to another (allowing sellers to state that they are charging fees).

I bring this up because I pointed out to CAG's membership the policy that prohibits sellers form charging fees (or at the very least, saying they are). Apparently, my opinion on the matter offended a lot of people and save for a few brave souls who agreed with me, I got more or less trampled. As a result, Cheapy finally weighed in and amended the CAG trading rules to add the following:

"Posted Image We would like to remind our users that PayPal's User's Agreement states:
"You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions."
Violating PayPal rules can put your PayPal account in jeopardy."

It was decided that this policy would be left up to each member and upheld or not at their own discretion. I didn't agree with that decision at the time, but Cheapy is the law of the land and the matter quickly faded away.

Now that the issue of "gifting" has come into focus, I think it's time to officially address both policies. If CAG's stance on Paypal fees remains as it has been since its debate, then I feel that people have every right to take issue with this policy. Picking and choosing which policies to follow doesn't seem like the right approach.



EDIT: Wow, you guys are posting fast and furious on this one. Thanks for the clarification, shrike. I'm pleased to see both issues being treated in the same light.

Being cheap doesn't mean you have to be a liar and a thief. Have some respect for yourself.


#80 Ryukahn

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:03 AM

It's a purchase for an item. Paypal considers it to be a purchase and its classifiable under a Purchase payment, not a Personal payment.


I don't really agree with that at all. People are pooling their funds in order to make a purchase. If someone buys a 4 pack by themself and then sells the other 3 then sure, but when people are just trying to pool I don't see why a gift payment can't be used.

Either way I am not too concerned with the 4 pack issue since I have friends outside of CAG that I can gift payments too since they are actually friends and would want to go in on that stuff, but it still sucks for people trying to organize them here.

#81 spoo

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:04 AM

Ok thanks for the clarification shrike.

Getting around that by a "non-Paypal discount" isn't violating the letter of Paypal's UA, it's violating the spirit of it. It's not surcharging fees explicitly, though it's implicitly stated by something else being a lesser price than what someone pays via Paypal.


https://cms.paypal.c...&locale.x=en_US
4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

I am not a lawyer but it states in plain English that you can't charge more to sell an item via PayPal then using cash and this goes for the shady cash discount.
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#82 allyourblood

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:06 AM

Don't forget to update the UA.
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#83 shrike4242

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:08 AM

Shrike your last post confused me a little bit. Are you saying it will be mandatory that sellers accepting Paypal not attempt to offset the surcharge as well as not allow gift payments, or are you just strongly suggesting they don't because it could potentially lead to problems with Paypal?

Any actions taken via Paypal are items we can't control directly, so all we can do is mandate that it doesn't happen on CAG. We can mandate the policies about Paypal gifted payments and surcharges for Paypal fees on the payer, though as we're not Paypal, we can't directly control what happens. We can set policies for users to abide by and it's hopeful that people follow the policies as stated.

In the sense that 4 people gift you the paypal, than buy it via gameshare?

Therein lies one issue, since it's one person making the actual purchase, though the other people sending Paypal aren't making a direct purchase, they're making an indirect one. I'm sure Paypal would consider that to be a purchase payments, since you're ultimately giving money for an item, even if it's a "share" of an item. Paypal spells out what personal payments are for, and clearly spells out that they're not for purchases.

#84 Megiddo_CAG

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:09 AM

Any actions taken via Paypal are items we can't control directly, so all we can do is mandate that it doesn't happen on CAG. We can mandate the policies about Paypal gifted payments and surcharges for Paypal fees on the payer, though as we're not Paypal, we can't directly control what happens. We can set policies for users to abide by and it's hopeful that people follow the policies as stated.

Therein lies one issue, since it's one person making the actual purchase, though the other people sending Paypal aren't making a direct purchase, they're making an indirect one. I'm sure Paypal would consider that to be a purchase payments, since you're ultimately giving money for an item, even if it's a "share" of an item. Paypal spells out what personal payments are for, and clearly spells out that they're not for purchases.


Understood, thanks for clarifying.

#85 JP

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:11 AM

The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory. I understand that these are the rules now but I'm just wanting to point out Paypal does have some contradicting statements that is definitely causing this grey area.

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#86 Megiddo_CAG

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:13 AM

The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory.


Yeah it does, first thing I thought when I read this. This does sorta mess up gameshares a bit.

#87 shrike4242

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:19 AM

Ok thanks for the clarification shrike.

https://cms.paypal.c...&locale.x=en_US
4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

I am not a lawyer but it states in plain English that you can't charge more to sell an item via PayPal then using cash.

Neither am I, though as it states in the above agreement, which is parallel to the merchant agreements for Visa, MC, Discover and AmEx.

Article from The Consumerist about credit card surcharges and minimum purchases:
http://consumerist.c...-violation.html

They don't allow for the surcharge of fees for credit card purchases over cash, as well as minimums for credit card purchases. If you see someone doing it, you should report them to MC/Visa/etc.

I'd like to hope that CAGs don't start making this an issue with two prices for payment, one for Paypal and one for non-Paypal. Amazon Payments has their UA look similar to Paypal's, so I'm sure it has the same legal in it. When I get a chance, I'll look it over.

People should stick to one price and that's it. If they're going to sue the convenience of Paypal or Amazon Payments, they need to pay the fees with that convenience. Merchants do it with credit card transactions, and they can lose their use of those credit cards if they violate them. Same goes for Paypal.

The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory. I understand that these are the rules now but I'm just wanting to point out Paypal does have some contradicting statements that is definitely causing this grey area.

That situation is a gray area, yes, since it's a close analog to the gameshare situation with the lunch bill argument.

It would certainly bear talking with them and trying to find out their stance on it. I'm sure they'd err on the side of their fees, if I had to take a stab at it, though it does warrant some further clarification.

#88 timobkg

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:27 AM

The only problem I see with that is the example for a personal payment from their selection includes this line:

A Personal Payment is:paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill;

That wording makes me think, personally, that gameshares and Steam 4-packs would apply there. A lunch bill, if one person bought it, people have obviously shared/bought the food but one person bought it up front. Just saying paypal's own descriptions between the two are a bit contradictory. I understand that these are the rules now but I'm just wanting to point out Paypal does have some contradicting statements that is definitely causing this grey area.

The description makes sense. If you are PAYING A FRIEND BACK, you already have the goods before you pay for them, there is no risk to you as the buyer, thus it is a personal payment (gift).

If a person buys a 4-pack, sends you the game, and then you pay them back for it, that's a personal payment.

If a person buys a 4-pack, waits for you to pay, you pay them for it, and then he sends you the game after receiving your payment, that's a purchase payment.

Hope that clears it up. :)

#89 JP

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:30 AM

Now that description does make sense, that way, in theory you could technically still do the personal payments for 4-packs but definitely leaves the first buyer open to some serious losses.

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#90 shrike4242

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:38 AM

The description makes sense. If you are PAYING A FRIEND BACK, you already have the goods before you pay for them, there is no risk to you as the buyer, thus it is a personal payment (gift).

If a person buys a 4-pack, sends you the game, and then you pay them back for it, that's a personal payment.

If a person buys a 4-pack, waits for you to pay, you pay them for it, and then he sends you the game after receiving your payment, that's a purchase payment.

Hope that clears it up. :)

Good analogy. Well thought out.