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Personal Paypal payments for purchases and payers paying Paypal fees prohibited.


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#91 dragonjud

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:48 AM

Should we just lock this up? If it's a new rule, I don't really understand why it's been opened as if it's up for debate, when it's just something else added to the site's Rules.


#92 JP

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:55 AM

Should we just lock this up? If it's a new rule, I don't really understand why it's been opened as if it's up for debate, when it's just something else added to the site's Rules.


Well I know there were some of us just looking for clarification on items that weren't entirely clear but it does seem that we have those explained better.

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#93 Virgil_Leone

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:05 AM

So in summation don't gift payments?

#94 Lucavious

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:21 AM

So basically, if you offer Paypal then you are responsible for the fees and you can not increase your prices to offset them.

Edited by Lucavious, 28 January 2010 - 01:23 AM.
a


#95 hero101

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:00 AM

So people actually have to give $$ to paypal? It is pretty bad for us when we're in a recession.

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#96 Lucavious

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:07 AM

We've already been giving money to Paypal no? Up until now though it's been the buyer who paid the fees.

#97 blackdog60

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:38 AM

I find it interesting that retailers can not charge fees for people using cards.
It costs at a minimum 3% for credit and 1.5% for debit, since they did away with the flat rate debit fee system.

I know V/MC are trying to get actual laws passed that prevent cash discounts or incentives to use cash.

But when I use my credit cards to pay taxes, I get charged a convenience fee. Does that not amount to the same thing. It is a matter of protections.

a solution to making payments vs gifts is this. I know many retailers who calculate shipping based on Invoice $ amount with additional fees for heavier or larger items. As long as you (a specific seller) consistently use what every table you decide on, no one can give you grief on the legal end of it. (policy covers a lot of sins).
Now if you offer rewards or discounts for cash that currently is allowable.



so for example lets say you decide shipping on $50 equates to $8 shipping cost. You can always refund extra if desirable.
Or lets say say it was a $50 transaction your fee of $8 will not cover the shipping & handling cost ie it weighs over 20lbs or over a certain size you charge an additional $4 fee. Just a note UPS currently uses a size guide for shipping now, not just weight. So if you ship a larger 4lb item, they move it up to the 30lb price point. You get the idea.

This would solve those pesky User Agreement issues. I think most CAGers would be fair in their application of shipping fees. At least I think they would be better than most of those ebay sellers with massive shipping costs.


#98 luan87us

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 06:43 AM

We've already been giving money to Paypal no? Up until now though it's been the buyer who paid the fees.


It has been the "seller" who pays the fees not the buyer. The fees can sometime make the seller at loss. Honestly personal payment is something the seller and the buyer work out. They have to know the risk once they agreed to it, just like the risk in trading items for items. One side will always have to go first. With the current scamming rate I understand why this rule has to go in effect.

#99 saetia

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:18 AM

So, yeah the timing on enforcing this Paypal UA is bullshit. Had I known that I would not be allowed to have buyers cover paypal fees, I would've probably just gone the Ebay route for my current auction.

Man, I am seriously thinking of ending my Lowball Auction. There is no way I am eating at least $60 in fees to accomodate a non-Paypal endorsed site. Shipping is already gonna kick my ass.
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#100 allyourblood

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:31 AM

So, yeah the timing on enforcing this Paypal UA is bullshit. Had I known that I would not be allowed to have buyers cover paypal fees, I would've probably just gone the Ebay route for my current auction.

Man, I am seriously thinking of ending my Lowball Auction. There is no way I am eating at least $60 in fees to accomodate a non-Paypal endorsed site. Shipping is already gonna kick my ass.


Ebay would still cost you more. A lot more.
Being cheap doesn't mean you have to be a liar and a thief. Have some respect for yourself.


#101 bvharris

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:08 PM

So, yeah the timing on enforcing this Paypal UA is bullshit. Had I known that I would not be allowed to have buyers cover paypal fees, I would've probably just gone the Ebay route for my current auction.

Man, I am seriously thinking of ending my Lowball Auction. There is no way I am eating at least $60 in fees to accomodate a non-Paypal endorsed site. Shipping is already gonna kick my ass.


Ebay would still cost you more. A lot more.


I understand where he is coming from though. The heaviest impact of this does fall on people who are having lowball auctions, and since that currently includes me as well I'm not unsympathetic to what he's saying.

In my eyes, as long as I am providing other fee-free means by which a seller can pay for an item (Amazon Payments, Amazon GC, Concealed cash) then it's not unreasonable to ask the buyer to cover the fees if they choose to use paypal as a payment. I am not at all saying I'm going to ignore what shrike is saying, if this is the rule now than of course I am going to follow it.

In the end, I think this is going to cause more trouble than it solves. If there's any group of people who are going to get hot and bothered over who pays seventy five cents, it's CAGs. I don't envy saetia having to deal with people on that, especially since he is a relatively new trader having such a high-volume sale.

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#102 Stoic Person Eater

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:53 PM

I'm willing to befriend anyone I trade with IRL so that I can send them a gift of money to celebrate "Happy Tuesday" and they can send me a videogame to celebrate "Happy Wednesday - Payment Received".

Kidding aside, I'm probably not going to proceed with the lowball auction I was planning now that other companies UA's are being enforced on the site. It would probably end up costing me money to have a lowball after shipping and the nickel and diming from Paypal.

#103 GraftonWVDiskExchang

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:26 PM

First of all, resorting to name-calling is pretty childish. Surely you're more mature than that...?

Secondly, I have no respect for people that turn a blind eye to theft. If you support theft, that states a lot about you as a person.

Not only are you stealing from a company, you're cheating your fellow CAGs by making them pay what YOU should be paying (Paypal fees).

You don't have to worry about you and I trading...I don't trade with crooks :bouncy:



There are lots of respected CAGs that ask you to cover the paypal fees. I dont do it but I understand those that do. You really make yourself sound like a jack ass by threatning to report people who do that. Please remind me to never trade with you if I ever send you a pm!



#104 shrike4242

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:36 PM

So, yeah the timing on enforcing this Paypal UA is bullshit. Had I known that I would not be allowed to have buyers cover paypal fees, I would've probably just gone the Ebay route for my current auction.

Man, I am seriously thinking of ending my Lowball Auction. There is no way I am eating at least $60 in fees to accomodate a non-Paypal endorsed site. Shipping is already gonna kick my ass.

Enforcing Paypal's UA isn't something we have the direct control to make any changes on. What happens on Paypal is outside of CAG's control, as it's their site. What I'm trying to do is make sure we don't give Paypal a reason to question their loss of revenue on their fees which are spelled out in their UA.

I understand where he is coming from though. The heaviest impact of this does fall on people who are having lowball auctions, and since that currently includes me as well I'm not unsympathetic to what he's saying.

In my eyes, as long as I am providing other fee-free means by which a seller can pay for an item (Amazon Payments, Amazon GC, Concealed cash) then it's not unreasonable to ask the buyer to cover the fees if they choose to use paypal as a payment. I am not at all saying I'm going to ignore what shrike is saying, if this is the rule now than of course I am going to follow it.

In the end, I think this is going to cause more trouble than it solves. If there's any group of people who are going to get hot and bothered over who pays seventy five cents, it's CAGs. I don't envy saetia having to deal with people on that, especially since he is a relatively new trader having such a high-volume sale.

There's always going to be someone that gets hot and bothered over $0.75 or other such fees. eBay and Amazon Marketplace easily charge more in fees for their items, and in the case of eBay, you're stuck using Paypal regardless if you want to do something else or not. I was going to list an item on Amazon Marketplace and they were going to take almost $17 off an item that was going to be $90, plus I was going to take a hit on shipping, since I was going to ship it media mail w/insurance and signature confirmation, due to its rarity. It ended up not being worth it. Here, I'd have listed it for less and not taken a bath on what I'd have made on it.

All I'm doing is pointing out policies stated in Paypal's UA and indicating that CAG won't ignore those policies in conducting our business on here. We're not getting anything from it, though CAG's size has put it on the map as a site for vendors to watch, as they did with the whole CC PS3 price drop scenario from a couple of years ago. If we have enough people passing payments through Paypal in avoidance of their policies, they could bring it up as an issue. I'm just trying to prevent any possible issue by making sure we stress what people have already agreed in Paypal's UA.

I'm willing to befriend anyone I trade with IRL so that I can send them a gift of money to celebrate "Happy Tuesday" and they can send me a videogame to celebrate "Happy Wednesday - Payment Received".

Kidding aside, I'm probably not going to proceed with the lowball auction I was planning now that other companies UA's are being enforced on the site. It would probably end up costing me money to have a lowball after shipping and the nickel and diming from Paypal.

There's other options out there besides Paypal. That's been said time and again. Lowball auctions are for clearing out items, not necessarily making a profit on them. There's been plenty of items I've seen go well below their "normal" value, though I don't see many lowball auctions be much in the way of money makers.

#105 phdeez

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:50 PM

Wow...

So, if I'm buying something from someone and I want paypal protection, and I want the item to be shipped sooner, the seller has to pay for it? Sounds a little backwards to me.

Really, I think this is a "CYA" move on cheapassgamer.com's count... and a thread for "I told you so" if people use Personal Gift option and get scammed since paypal will not help the buyer out.

/edit/ All of which I understand considering the size of CAG now...

#106 Stoic Person Eater

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 03:54 PM

First of all, resorting to name-calling is pretty childish. Surely you're more mature than that...?

Secondly, I have no respect for people that turn a blind eye to theft. If you support theft, that states a lot about you as a person.

Not only are you stealing from a company, you're cheating your fellow CAGs by making them pay what YOU should be paying (Paypal fees).

You don't have to worry about you and I trading...I don't trade with crooks

You're calling me a crook? You just said resorting to name-calling is pretty childish. You childish hypocrite.

Get off your damn high horse, you don't know anything about me or my Paypal usage. I contribute PLENTY of fees to Paypal through other business I do. Trading on this site RARELY involves me using Paypal, but when I do, I'm not going to have a bunch of high-horse goody two shoes telling me what I can and can't do. I respect shrike for bringing this to light for people who exploit the system, but you're just being a bitch about the whole thing.

LOL @ cheating fellow CAG'er - You're pathetic. Go outside and play in traffic.

#107 bvharris

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:04 PM

You're calling me a crook? You just said resorting to name-calling is pretty childish. You childish hypocrite.

Get off your damn high horse, you don't know anything about me or my Paypal usage. I contribute PLENTY of fees to Paypal through other business I do. Trading on this site RARELY involves me using Paypal, but when I do, I'm not going to have a bunch of high-horse goody two shoes telling me what I can and can't do. I respect shrike for bringing this to light for people who exploit the system, but you're just being a bitch about the whole thing.

LOL @ cheating fellow CAG'er - You're pathetic. Go outside and play in traffic.


I don't think he was talking to you. ;) He just doesn't know how to use quotes properly. That said, you couldn't be more right. Go away new guy, a jackass is exactly what you're being and a sanctimonious jackass at that. I don't know where someone who's been on the trading forums for like 4 seconds gets the audacity to call traders here, especially honest ones, crooks for merely suggesting that buyers pay fees. You're a sad little man, proprietor (I'm assuming) of the DiskExchange in Grafton, WV and I shall NOT be frequenting your establishment next time my travels take me to Grafton, WV. Which will be never.

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#108 Stoic Person Eater

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:11 PM

I don't think he was talking to you. ;) He just doesn't know how to use quotes properly. That said, you couldn't be more right. Go away new guy, a jackass is exactly what you're being and a sanctimonious jackass at that. I don't know where someone who's been on the trading forums for like 4 seconds gets the audacity to call traders here, especially honest ones, crooks for merely suggesting that buyers pay fees. You're a sad little man, proprietor (I'm assuming) of the DiskExchange in Grafton, WV and I shall NOT be frequenting your establishment next time my travels take me to Grafton, WV. Which will be never.

This.

#109 Aenzo

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:39 PM

I don't think he was talking to you. ;) He just doesn't know how to use quotes properly. That said, you couldn't be more right. Go away new guy, a jackass is exactly what you're being and a sanctimonious jackass at that. I don't know where someone who's been on the trading forums for like 4 seconds gets the audacity to call traders here, especially honest ones, crooks for merely suggesting that buyers pay fees. You're a sad little man, proprietor (I'm assuming) of the DiskExchange in Grafton, WV and I shall NOT be frequenting your establishment next time my travels take me to Grafton, WV. Which will be never.

This x2.

#110 timobkg

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 06:26 PM

Wow...

So, if I'm buying something from someone and I want paypal protection, and I want the item to be shipped sooner, the seller has to pay for it? Sounds a little backwards to me.

Look at it from the opposite view, as a seller. Paypal allows you to sell something to a random person over the internet, where that buyer can pay using a credit card and feel secure that he's getting paypal protection. For that service, they charge a 2.9% fee. As a seller, you don't have to use Paypal, but using it severely increases the number of people you can sell to.

As the seller, if you arrange a trade, you can mail the game to the buyer before getting the money, and then the buyer can legally gift you the money once they get the game. Are you going to do that? No, because it offers you no protection, and you have no guarantee that you're going to get paid. If you want to see the money first, you use paypal, and you pay a fee.

Likewise, ebay will increase the number of people you can sell to, and also charges a higher fee, around 10% between itself and paypal. The item will have to sell for 8% more on ebay, to cover the increased fees.

#111 kurrptsenate

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 06:59 PM

honestly, the way paypal works is borderline criminal...

in an ebay example, if you were to sell a game, you get paid the money but do not have access to that money. the turn around is 17 days, or when you get a positive feedback from the buyer. what this means is that, at any given time, you could expect paypal to be holding onto millions of dollars on a given day that is not theirs. they get interest on money that doesn't belong to them, but since they are the middle man they are not only profiting from their fees, but also from this sizable interest.

you could argue against using paypal entirely, but its become a necessary evil

#112 bvharris

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 07:19 PM

For anyone considering it, I just used Amazon payments successfully. Neither myself nor the buyer was asked at any point to pay a fee, and it was very easy. You can even pay by credit card.

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#113 shrike4242

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 07:34 PM

honestly, the way paypal works is borderline criminal...

in an ebay example, if you were to sell a game, you get paid the money but do not have access to that money. the turn around is 17 days, or when you get a positive feedback from the buyer. what this means is that, at any given time, you could expect paypal to be holding onto millions of dollars on a given day that is not theirs. they get interest on money that doesn't belong to them, but since they are the middle man they are not only profiting from their fees, but also from this sizable interest.

you could argue against using paypal entirely, but its become a necessary evil

They're not the only game in town, as we've been discussing through the thread. See below, as well.

For anyone considering it, I just used Amazon payments successfully. Neither myself nor the buyer was asked at any point to pay a fee, and it was very easy. You can even pay by credit card.

Good to hear they didn't charge any fees on either side of the transaction. I need to go over and look at their UA/TOU and see if that's the case for all transactions, or just sending money from person to person.

#114 Aenzo

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 07:58 PM

honestly, the way paypal works is borderline criminal...

in an ebay example, if you were to sell a game, you get paid the money but do not have access to that money. the turn around is 17 days, or when you get a positive feedback from the buyer. what this means is that, at any given time, you could expect paypal to be holding onto millions of dollars on a given day that is not theirs. they get interest on money that doesn't belong to them, but since they are the middle man they are not only profiting from their fees, but also from this sizable interest.

you could argue against using paypal entirely, but its become a necessary evil

Exactly, my point. Hence why I don't think it's all that "great".

For anyone considering it, I just used Amazon payments successfully. Neither myself nor the buyer was asked at any point to pay a fee, and it was very easy. You can even pay by credit card.

Thanks for the heads up bvharris. I wasn't too familiar with it so I was still unsure about it. But this settles it.

#115 allyourblood

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 02:38 AM

in an ebay example, if you were to sell a game, you get paid the money but do not have access to that money. the turn around is 17 days, or when you get a positive feedback from the buyer. what this means is that, at any given time, you could expect paypal to be holding onto millions of dollars on a given day that is not theirs. they get interest on money that doesn't belong to them, but since they are the middle man they are not only profiting from their fees, but also from this sizable interest.


This only applies to new sellers and rightly so; Paypal is making every effort to protect the buyer from the old "cut and run". I receive Paypal payments all the time and that money is available to me immediately. I can withdraw it or spend it right away as I see fit. Using a provision that only applies to a small set of users and not the majority isn't really a fair argument.

Also, I'd like to see some actual documentation to support the idea that the money that Paypal holds during these transactions is actually gaining them any profit from interest. I'm not saying you're wrong about this, I just don't want to assume that this is what's taking place without having some proof of it.
Being cheap doesn't mean you have to be a liar and a thief. Have some respect for yourself.


#116 Tony208

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 02:53 AM

^They are giving me like .004% interest on my Paypal(Premier) balance. They do this to encourage people to leave more money on their accounts so PP can lend it out. I'm too lazy to find proof.

Anyway, eBay/PP wins since we here at CAG have to compete with the lowest eBay prices and if we have to account for fees also, why bother selling on CAG?

#117 Ryukahn

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:06 AM

For anyone considering it, I just used Amazon payments successfully. Neither myself nor the buyer was asked at any point to pay a fee, and it was very easy. You can even pay by credit card.


It was my understanding that you were charged at the end of some cycle, be it each month or some other pre-determined date by Amazon. I don't recall reading that it was an instant charge.

If it's not the case though, then it would be a very nice option to paypal.

#118 allyourblood

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:10 AM

I understand that people want the choice of whether or not to follow Paypal's policy, but I feel like CAG is doing the right thing in at least not allowing people to skirt the policy publicly. shrike is interested in protecting CAG from scrutiny or even legal intervention from various entities, and that just makes sense. You might not like it, but at least understand that it's ultimately for the greater good, which is the preservation of this forum which we all frequent (for free, no less) and enjoy so much.

I do find it odd that so many people are quick to dispute the policy in the first place. It's something that you agree to abide by when you apply for a Paypal account, and yet people are taking issue with being held to it. Sure, CAG is not owned, supported, or governed by Paypal in any way, but if they're just helping to uphold a policy that each Paypal member agreed to anyway, what's the problem? Heck, CAG also doesn't make the law when it comes to piracy, but they uphold it where they can; this really isn't that different. It's still a legal issue (albeit not necesarily a criminal one), and CAG should be supported for trying reduce undue exposure or intervention from outside sources.

Lastly, If Paypal decided to start charging more for fees than what they've listed, or if they just deducted a few cents from folks' accounts at random, every member would be up in arms, threatening lawsuits and closing accounts. Why are we so accepting of the reverse?
Being cheap doesn't mean you have to be a liar and a thief. Have some respect for yourself.


#119 GraftonWVDiskExchang

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 12:38 PM

Allyourblood, I was trying to say the same thing, albeit in a different way. It didn't come out sounding quite as nice as it did when you stated the same thing though.

Sure, I have only 1 trade feedback so far, but I did join this site to befriend other people and trade games also. Somebody ALWAYS brings up a sore subject, and manages to stir up a hornet's nest in the process. I'm usually that somebody :-)

I have a tendency to put words down on paper the wrong way...which irks some people (as was well displayed previously in this thread LOL).

At least I know my writings get noticed and people do think about what I write. They may not agree with what I say, but oh well.

I'm just glad that I'm not the only one that agrees that if a person uses a company's services, that they should pay for them...whether you like the company or not.

I have seen Paypal completely shut off their services to companies/sites that they think aren't enforcing their policies. I would really hate for that to happen to CAG. Sure, people have a "right" to charge what they want to, but others have rights also (such as the right not to pay somebody else's fees), as do companies that have a right to profit from the products that they produce.

#120 kurrptsenate

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 12:49 PM

This only applies to new sellers and rightly so; Paypal is making every effort to protect the buyer from the old "cut and run".


50 feedback and a member for 4 years, yea, you know what you're talking about :lol:


Also, I'd like to see some actual documentation to support the idea that the money that Paypal holds during these transactions is actually gaining them any profit from interest. I'm not saying you're wrong about this, I just don't want to assume that this is what's taking place without having some proof of it.


paypal operates like a bank. if you don't believe this, than you are pretty darn naive


and again, as I said before, it's a necessary evil to deal with this company. honestly though, it's impossible for me to be sympathetic to their "situation"