Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

CAGcast #189: DRM Free!


  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#91 Neji

Neji

Posted 28 February 2010 - 05:16 PM

Great show guys. Questions for the next show:

(1) Assassin's Creed has been on steep discounts lately ($36 at Amazon, Walmart, etc.), what do you guys think is the rationale for this? The game got rave reviews so they don't need the discount to clean the shelf. Is it because there is a GOTY version coming out?

(2) About Yakuza 3, will you guys recommend it even without the deleted contents and even though Yakuza 4 is coming out in Japan? Shipwreck, can you please do a Yakuza 3 review as well?

Keep up the good work.

#92 Curufinwe

Curufinwe

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 28 February 2010 - 06:07 PM

This DRM would be bad for any game from any publisher, but when it's Assassin's Creed 2 from Ubisoft, it's even more of a concern.

Just look at the crap people had to go thru to stop Assassin's Creed from freezing because the game was secretly sending information to an Ubisoft server they didn't even have working.

http://forums.steamp...ad.php?t=887748

Curufinwe5503.png? Curufinwe.jpg


#93 Blackout

Blackout

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 28 February 2010 - 09:05 PM

Good show guys. It made my extended commute a little more tolerable.

When I was talking about the Aaron Greenberg thing, I should have been more clear. I wasn't referring to the sales numbers. I was referring to an interview from Joystiq. Basically, the entire interview is one PR fluff, as are every single interview Greenberg has done in his life. First off, the guy at Joystiq starts off with some lame joke. Then he doesn't press him on any issues when it's ripe for opportunity, such as the original Xbox Live shutdown, Project Shitbox, overpriced Games on Demand, or the Hard Drive issue.

For the Xbox Live shutdown, he could have asked him, "Why did you guys take down the DLC without informing anyone? Once the content is gone, how are people supposed to get it back in case of a system malfunction? Is this how you're going to be handling the 360's digital content once the new Xbox rolls around and is well into its lifespan?" Greenberg says now they're able to bring new experiences to the 360, bla bla bla. What new experiences required shutting down the service and removing all the content online? That would have been the cue for the guy to press Greenberg.

When he discussed the 250GB hard drive, he could have asked Greenberg, "Why are Microsoft hard drives so expensive/are we ever going to see a price drop? Why can't gamers use different HDs like with the PS3? What are 20GB owners supposed to do?" Instead, Greenberg goes on about how great it is that FF13 is having a special edition bundle on the 360. For Shitbox he could have asked him, "Isn't this nothing more than a glorified vision cam? Are we going to see actual games for it?" When Greenberg answers the question about Shitbox, he barely touches on it but instead talks about how they are focusing on their core games, and 2010 is going to be their biggest year yet.

Later on Greenberg says, "And so we're excited. We think that's great for our current owners, we think it's great for the folks that are going to be buying Xbox 360s this year, we think it'll be good for the Live service. Just tons of innovation, tons of new experiences, month after month." Um, tons of innovation month after month? Really? Tons? Like what? Isn't that something they should have pressed him on?

Cheapy, while I know it's the guy's job to promote the system, it's also the journalist's job to question him, not let him spit the company line word for word. It's an interview. That shit wouldn't fly if someone was working for a newspaper and interviewing basically anyone. Why does it get a pass when it comes to games? How are we supposed to get some real answers if they aren't asking any real questions? I know we're not dealing with something major like a war or economic meltdown here, but it would be nice to see something besides PR pieces and softball questions when it comes to game journalism. Especially in the case of the 360's digital distribution and how Microsoft is going to handle it when Xbox 720 comes out, because they haven't exactly set a good precedent.


AS2 is really bad because it requires a CONSTANT connection. You lose connection you lost the game. It's dumb. Even in a fully broadband capable house, the internet connection can and does get lost for a multitude of reasons. And if you think Ubi is not looking at this for console games as well, you are kidding yourself.

And let's be honest. The what the people who are okay with this are saying is "I don't play PC games, it doesn't affect me so Fuck all of you who do"


You bring up a good point. I wouldn't doubt if they had something like that in mind. I'm not a PC guy but I would hate to see that crap come to consoles. I don't think piracy is as big of an issue on consoles as it is on PC, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't attempt something similar down the line with consoles.

I disagree with Wombat on DRM for one single reason:

DRM only hurts legitimate customers.

It's that simple. Pirates are not affected by DRM in the least. They crack it and get a perfectly functional game. The legitimate customer, who paid $60 bucks for AC2 and needs no punishment, gets hassled and frustrated instead.

And believe it or not, I do play PC games that are 10 years old. I even play PC games that are 20 years old. The longevity of a game is important to me. DRM like in AC2 means that game is worth significantly less, since it is simply a glorified long-term rental.


As someone else posted, the game will be unplayable once they close down the servers. Wombat's 10-year-old game argument is weak. It doesn't matter how old it is. If you paid for the product you should be able to use it whenever the hell you want, not until some suit decides it's time to take it out to pasture. We've already seen something like this on consoles with the original Xbox Live shutdown and that content. Whose to say the same thing won't happen to the PS3, 360, and Wii?

Edited by Blackout, 28 February 2010 - 09:39 PM.



#94 FriskyTanuki

FriskyTanuki

    How shiny are your balls?

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 01 March 2010 - 05:57 AM

Like Mega Man, X doesn't mean ten for Metal Slug X. The X games are just an enhanced version of a Metal Slug game, as the first Metal Slug X was MS2 with extra stuff in its campaign and Metal Slug XX is MS7 with at least a mission mode as its extra content. Like it says on the back of the box, "What beats X?! A shock-wave of XX!!!"

I don't usually have much of an issue with DRM because I have just one PC to play PC games with and I buy 90% of my PC games through Steam, so I don't even have an issue with limited install DRM. Requiring a constant internet is probably the stupidest DRM you could have since there are so many variables that can cause issues that have nothing to do with just the publisher having the servers up whenever you want to play, so that's just punishing the player if they don't have a great internet connection for a single-player game. I do agree that pirates that feel like they're entitled to play every PC game that's released whether they can afford it or not is a huge issue that has caused many PC exclusive developers to move to multiplatform development this generation.

Do you guys actually buy most of the games you own and play? Any time one of you mentions buying a PSN game, the others quickly ask about taking it from their account so they don't have to pay for it. After hearing Shipwreck talk about sending his copy of Heavy Rain around to a bunch of people, Cheapy mentions getting the PSN version of Trine from Shipwreck, so I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on that subject.

Cheapy, since you mentioned that you're interested in seeing how different sites are doing advertisements, what did you think of Kotaku's blog hits counters being sponsored by Dante's Inferno whenever they reached 10k hits? I know they'll change the color scheme of the blog if they're paid to do so along with the traditional banners and such, but I thought it was interesting that that was part of EA's advertising on Kotaku.

If you haven't noticed, I tend to say that the show was good if I have a good amount of comments on the show and decent or less if I don't. Of course, I've often lied about episodes being good when they really weren't so you guys wouldn't feel bad.
Spoiler


#95 Wolfpup

Wolfpup

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:46 AM

Wow. Until now I didn't know what a colossal dochebag Wombat is.

“The people complaining the loudest were going to 'pirate' the game anyway”? Uh...no. People who were going to steal the game have no reason to complain, as the DRM doesn't affect them.

“You have to be online to play World of Warcraft!” Yeah genius, it's an MMO.

“Why'd they even make a PC version?” Gee, I don't know. Why'd they make a PC version? Genius.

EDIT: Greeeeeat. I find out I mistyped this by hearing it quoted on the CAGCast. :lol:

I meant to say "Why'd they make an Xbox version" and mistyped...as in it's a ridiculous question, they made a PC version for the same reason they released it on the Playstation and Xbox.

Wombat for the DRM argument win. WoW does the same thing and has millions of games. And you aren't going to be playing the game in 10 years.


Wow. They're breeding.

Edited by Wolfpup, 07 March 2010 - 05:37 AM.

Please help cure diseases like cancer and Parkinson's by running Folding @ Home! :)
Recent games, Netflix Scale:
[LIST]

Posted Image

#96 Ultramontane

Ultramontane

    Kuato Lives!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 01 March 2010 - 06:39 PM

Wombat, I'm usually a fan of yours but for some reason I didn't like your tone towards PC gamers dealing with DRM issues. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your viewpoint, but it sounded like you felt the PC gamers deserve struggling with DRM issues? If that's the case, I disagree.

Piracy is a huge issue, but to require online connectivity for a single player game sounds a little off. Is it a huge deal? Probably not, but why have the need for a constant monitor? I personally don't know how to effectively combat piracy, but at least give the honest player some benefit of the doubt.

It was still a good show and I enjoyed listening to all of your view points. Keep it up.

Don't make decisions when you're angry and don't make promises when you're happy.


#97 GLOCKGLOCK

GLOCKGLOCK

    Too many games...

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:29 PM

Glad Wombat intervened and saved us from letting Cheapy answer the exact same CAGbag question about smoking that he has addressed on 100 other shows. I'm guessing you just refer to the CAGbag thread when it comes time to pick out questions. Possibly you can spend some prep time on that section of the show and pick out some questions ahead of time. I'm not sure how many times we can stand to hear the same questions answered over and over again on every show.
How high is your True GamerScore? Join the CAG Leaderboard on TrueAchievements.com to find out!

Join the CAG GamerScore Whore Group here!

#98 PaddedCell

PaddedCell

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 01 March 2010 - 11:47 PM

After reading some of the arguments back and forth and listening to the podcast I just wanted to leave my 2 cents.

Pirates are going to find a way around the DRM, so really the only people that are being penalized is the consumer, so I am not even sure what the debate is? You build a higher wall someone is going to build a taller ladder so that others can climb to get over the wall.

Not saying that the backlash of the DRM is to pirate the game is right, but at the same time is it right for the developers who are asking for your money to make you jump through hoops to give it to them? Ok sure, then don't buy the game, but if it’s something you've been looking forward to because you do like the game/genre/story/etc you get to miss an experience that maybe you had been looking forward to because they want to punish pirates who are getting the game for free and not having to jump through the hoops... Not to mention the risk is still relatively low. I don't know if those same people who choose the easier route would of bought the game or not, but I can definitely see why someone choose easy vs. paying for difficulty.

As for the comment from wombat about getting a console if your wanting to play that game. That is a pretty asinine statement considering the times we live in with the economy as it is. Buy a $300 dollar system to play 1 game that costs $60+ (at release). Sure they probably shouldn’t be buying games at all if they’re enduring hardships but we all need a break from our troubled times and $50 dollars is a hell of a lot easier to come by than $360. To continue on this point, what if you have the computer system to play AS2 but cant afford the internet fees to go with a cable or DSL connection, then I guess you're assed out. Lets also not forget, that the servers on ubisofts side is a factor, when they crash, what happens?


#99 taint_killer

taint_killer

Posted 02 March 2010 - 03:21 AM

Cagcasts get me through the day.

#100 Leggo

Leggo

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:26 AM

After reading some of the arguments back and forth and listening to the podcast I just wanted to leave my 2 cents.

Pirates are going to find a way around the DRM, so really the only people that are being penalized is the consumer, so I am not even sure what the debate is? You build a higher wall someone is going to build a taller ladder so that others can climb to get over the wall.

Not saying that the backlash of the DRM is to pirate the game is right, but at the same time is it right for the developers who are asking for your money to make you jump through hoops to give it to them? Ok sure, then don't buy the game, but if it’s something you've been looking forward to because you do like the game/genre/story/etc you get to miss an experience that maybe you had been looking forward to because they want to punish pirates who are getting the game for free and not having to jump through the hoops... Not to mention the risk is still relatively low. I don't know if those same people who choose the easier route would of bought the game or not, but I can definitely see why someone choose easy vs. paying for difficulty.

As for the comment from wombat about getting a console if your wanting to play that game. That is a pretty asinine statement considering the times we live in with the economy as it is. Buy a $300 dollar system to play 1 game that costs $60+ (at release). Sure they probably shouldn’t be buying games at all if they’re enduring hardships but we all need a break from our troubled times and $50 dollars is a hell of a lot easier to come by than $360. To continue on this point, what if you have the computer system to play AS2 but cant afford the internet fees to go with a cable or DSL connection, then I guess you're assed out. Lets also not forget, that the servers on ubisofts side is a factor, when they crash, what happens?


3-5 years down the road when netbooks become powerful enough to play this stuff on the go, it just won't be an option for retail customers, and that's sad. That's BS. It's not about being able to afford a proper internet connection, it's about limitations on a platform whose greatest strength is its flexibility.

#101 megaman1421

megaman1421

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 07:51 AM

Cheapy what ever happened to your famous one box moving story? You said you were going to talk about it over 20 episodes ago and since you just moved it might be appropriate to talk about it now. Anyway awesome episode, was listening to it in my spanish class and there were so many times that I had to hold in the laughter, the poo talk and cheapys jamaican accent specifically made me laugh XD
Posted Image

#102 Microshock

Microshock

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:24 PM

You know what? I hate when Wombat makes that tone during a conversation as if he knows what he's talking about.

Wombat, Cheapy and Shipwreck. You are not PC gamers. You have no idea what you are talking about. Being connected to the internet to play an OFFLINE game IS STUPID.

If any of you were subjected to play Mass Effect 2 while having a perfectly stable connection to the internet, you'd blow a fucking gasket.

Of course you need the internet to be connected to an MMO. It's Massively Multiplayer Online.

And the best part is, Wombat will keep thinking he's right. Assassin's Creed 1 obviously sold enough on PC to warrant the 2nd one on PC, so thats why they made a second version. Designed for consoles? I don't see how. Because it works with a controller? It works with a mouse and keyboard also. And a controller on PC.

DRM only hurts legitimate gamers trying to play their game. Pirates will have a superior version yet again which they didn't have to pay for and don't have any DRM.

Console only gamers judging what happens in the PC gaming realm tsk tsk tsk.

#103 Wombat

Wombat

    CAGcast or nothin

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:30 PM

I never knew that PC gamers were so sensitive, they all sound like me

#104 Microshock

Microshock

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:37 PM

I play on my PS3 and on a PC so don't give me that. PC gamers do whine a lot but your comments about the DRM were just plain uninformed.

#105 Wolfpup

Wolfpup

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:42 PM

Wombat, Cheapy and Shipwreck. You are not PC gamers. You have no idea what you are talking about. Being connected to the internet to play an OFFLINE game IS STUPID.

If any of you were subjected to play Mass Effect 2 while having a perfectly stable connection to the internet, you'd blow a fucking gasket.

Of course you need the internet to be connected to an MMO. It's Massively Multiplayer Online.

And the best part is, Wombat will keep thinking he's right. Assassin's Creed 1 obviously sold enough on PC to warrant the 2nd one on PC, so thats why they made a second version. Designed for consoles? I don't see how. Because it works with a controller? It works with a mouse and keyboard also. And a controller on PC.

DRM only hurts legitimate gamers trying to play their game. Pirates will have a superior version yet again which they didn't have to pay for and don't have any DRM.

Console only gamers judging what happens in the PC gaming realm tsk tsk tsk.


Totally agree with everything you said. It makes me so angry when people act like we're mad because we want to steal the game. NO. People who steal games DON'T CARE ABOUT THE ACTIVATION/DRM because they won't have to deal with it. The only people who are going to be up in arms are potential/ex-customers.

I used to buy probably a game a week on PC, and that's slowed to a trickle because of activation. I can't get excited about anything because I don't know ahead of time if it'll be crippled. I can't preorder. Etc., etc.

I like that Sins of the Solar Empire guy's comments on that-that people stealing the game aren't his customers either. They weren't going to buy it with or with DRM, so freaking out about it doesn't accomplish anything but cost you sales.

(And note...I bought Sins, and Galactic Civ 2. Partly because they're supposed to be awesome games, but partly just to support the company.)
Please help cure diseases like cancer and Parkinson's by running Folding @ Home! :)
Recent games, Netflix Scale:
[LIST]

Posted Image

#106 Microshock

Microshock

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:43 PM

I've stopped buying PC games as well but not for DRM reasons persay, but because I can't sell any of the games.

Which i guess relates to the DRM thing.

#107 Wolfpup

Wolfpup

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:46 PM

You know the resale thing is a factor for me too. I always just thought of it as "oh, well the PC version's a bit cheaper to begin with" and didn't worry about it. But when I'm forced to buy the console version instead because of this, at least I get to think "if I don't like it that well, I can sell it".

I *try* to keep up with PC gaming, but at a time when hardware and software is better and cheaper than ever...this comes along and ruins everything. Geez. I'd still buy Spore if EA ever feels like selling it.
Please help cure diseases like cancer and Parkinson's by running Folding @ Home! :)
Recent games, Netflix Scale:
[LIST]

Posted Image

#108 Jay Are Man Loy

Jay Are Man Loy

Posted 03 March 2010 - 02:16 AM

Wombat, I'm surprised at you. How can you be so insensitive? Over 150 years of technological development has been applied towards the enhancement of the female anatomy, and you scoff and criticize Samara for utilizing it to the fullest. A noble woman, who is using her craft to help track down and kill her own daughter for Christ sake, should be allowed the opportunity to indulge once and a while and grow tremendous, boner-inspiring fun pillows. And shame on you for mocking her!!! Of course she is proud of them and wants to draw attention to her wonderful achievement, you insensitive misogynist!! Jesus, two centuries later we have the incredible technology to travel to distant worlds and interact with other intelligent beings, all I can say is I sincerely hope our descendants are not prone to this kind of thought.

And what is she doing?! Smuggling Smurfs? What a ridiculous and fallible statement! First off, I attest that one would see the silhouetted facial structures of the two Smurfs through her uniform, had she actually been attempting to conceal them. And second, they would asphyxiate and be crushed to death by her enormous mouth-watering milk balloons! So what would be the point of even trying to transport them if they were just going to die by being crushed by those gigantic, majestic mountains of flesh?! Seriously your logic is way off. Think it out before you blurt it out.

Oh and Cheapy... I haven't forgotten about you salivating over Miranda's ass, objectifying those perfectly proportioned, ball draining pelvis cushions.

You guys are on thin ice. Please, for the good of the male gender, rein in your heat-seeking twat missiles.

But VesselAnnihilation, you are still the man. And don't worry, just because you do not comment on sex or women as much as these two other pigs doesn't mean that you are gay. So don't stress about it or anything. And definitely don't let those voices in your head persuade you into believing that.

#109 Joda84

Joda84

    EXTERMINATE!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 03 March 2010 - 03:20 PM

I like that Sins of the Solar Empire guy's comments on that-that people stealing the game aren't his customers either. They weren't going to buy it with or with DRM, so freaking out about it doesn't accomplish anything but cost you sales.

(And note...I bought Sins, and Galactic Civ 2. Partly because they're supposed to be awesome games, but partly just to support the company.)


Same here. I really enjoyed Galactic Civ 2. I wasn't even going to take a look at the game, then I heard about their stance on drm.

I am not going to pirate or anything, but I won't buy a crippled game... Unless it is $5 bin sale.



#110 Wolfpup

Wolfpup

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 03 March 2010 - 04:00 PM

Yeah, that's how I've ended up with a decent number of Steam games. At that price point I figure it's basically the same price as a rental, so...
Please help cure diseases like cancer and Parkinson's by running Folding @ Home! :)
Recent games, Netflix Scale:
[LIST]

Posted Image

#111 PhaperPlane

PhaperPlane

    A British CAG.

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 03 March 2010 - 09:36 PM

Dear CheapyD, Wombat and Shipwreck,
As the PS2 is reaching it's 10th Birthday this year (4th March in Japan and October 24th in the US), do you think it's finally time to let the PS2 go? If not, why?
Keep up the fantastic work on the CAG Cast!
Posted Image
Give me an internet please!

Follow me on Twitter! | Be my friend on Last.FM!

Feel free to add me on XBL and PSN!

#112 XTommyDonX

XTommyDonX

Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:01 PM

I know that you guys were only talking about those specific games, but here's what I feel will be the outcome:

1. Pokemon Heart Gold
2. God of War 3
3. Final Fantasy XIII (Xbox 360)
4. Pokemon Soul Silver
5. Final Fantasy XIII (PS3)

I just can't see Bad Company 2 surpassing any Pokemon game (especially when this is one of the real games and not a spinoff), Sony's biggest first-party game, and one of the most anticipated RPGs in many years. Bad Company may have come out earlier than the rest, but two of the games listed are the killer apps which many people purchased their PS3s for.
Posted ImagePosted Image

#113 dan13l858

dan13l858

    R.I.P. Guru

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:51 AM

What's so creepy about Hostess bars. There are no different than any regular bars in USA. I've been to some in Japan and actually visit the USA version ones in local Asian areas in the states. No big deal. Ship, if you're going to Japan you're going to run into one of these places.

#114 Wolfpup

Wolfpup

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:15 PM

Dear CheapyD, Wombat and Shipwreck,
As the PS2 is reaching it's 10th Birthday this year (4th March in Japan and October 24th in the US), do you think it's finally time to let the PS2 go? If not, why?
Keep up the fantastic work on the CAG Cast!


What do you mean by let it go? Like Sony stop producing it? Or people stop playing it? Or...?

I'm *buying* PS2s to replace my not-actually-backwards-compatible PS3 :-D
Please help cure diseases like cancer and Parkinson's by running Folding @ Home! :)
Recent games, Netflix Scale:
[LIST]

Posted Image

#115 TRIXmonkey

TRIXmonkey

Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:02 PM

Dear CheapyD, Wombat and Shipwreck,
As the PS2 is reaching it's 10th Birthday this year (4th March in Japan and October 24th in the US), do you think it's finally time to let the PS2 go? If not, why?
Keep up the fantastic work on the CAG Cast!


Let the PS2 go we got PS3 now.
Currently Playing: Nothing right now:cry: