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Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill


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#211 darkslime

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 10:23 PM

If I take randomly 1,000 illegal immigrants, and separate them into ethnicities, I am going to find 810 are of hispanics, 90 asians, 60 europeans, and 40 people from the rest of the world. So if you were out hunting for illegals, what group would you target? Its not being racist if statistically the vast majority of illegal immigrants are hispanic.

That's all around the US. If you take 1,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona, you will probably find 998 of them Hispanic. But if you take 1,000 random Hispanic people you will probably find less than 100 of them are here illegally, and that's why this law is messed up.

Its also going to screw up the economy for everyone because Mexico and California and the MLB and other things have decided to boycott us.

#212 UncleBob

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 10:40 PM

Another excellent strawman, but no one, including me, believes this. We think that as a result of this bill, racial profiling, although banned, will still take place.


Racial profiling will take place as a result of this bill?

Did it not take place before this bill?

Its also going to screw up the economy for everyone because Mexico and California and the MLB and other things have decided to boycott us.


Yeah, because California and Mexico's economies are something worth depending on.
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#213 cindersphere

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 10:56 PM

Racial profiling will take place as a result of this bill?

Did it not take place before this bill?



Yeah, because California and Mexico's economies are something worth depending on.


They are. California, at least until the crisis, is actually one of the states that paid more in federal taxes than they receive back. Unlike some southern states that receive more aid than the entire state pays in taxes.
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#214 SpazX

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:45 AM

hmmm this person is hispanic, 2 in 10 hispanics are illegal which is the greatest ratio, maybe I should ask for his papers...


lol

Yes, so you'll be wrong 80% of the time, but 1 in 10 Asian people are illegal immigrants, so you should ask the Asian people too, what's the difference if you're wrong 90% of the time versus 80%? And then again, maybe 1 in 10,000 European-looking white guys (rather than hispanic white guys, which you probably wouldn't know the difference anyway) are illegal too, so you'll be wrong like 99.99% of the time or something, but whatever, Fuck it.

So why not ask everybody again?

And your quote, similarly, uses the probability wrong.

"Just because someone is Middle Eastern doesn't make them a terrorist, but it does increase the chances that they are."

No it doesn't. It's very very unlikely that any particular Middle Easterner is going to be a terrorist, and being Middle Eastern doesn't increase the chances that they're a terrorist - a terrorist is more likely to be Middle Eastern than some other race/ethnicity. I'm trying to explain that distinction to you, do you understand what I'm saying?

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#215 darkslime

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:22 AM

"Just because someone is Middle Eastern doesn't make them a terrorist, but it does increase the chances that they are."

No it doesn't. It's very very unlikely that any particular Middle Easterner is going to be a terrorist, and being Middle Eastern doesn't increase the chances that they're a terrorist - a terrorist is more likely to be Middle Eastern than some other race/ethnicity. I'm trying to explain that distinction to you, do you understand what I'm saying?

I don't see any distinction to that in this case. It is true that most illegal immigrants are Hispanic, so being Hispanic does increase the chances that you are an illegal immigrant compared to other races, especially in Arizona where you are very close to the Mexican border.

#216 Knoell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:52 AM

Racial profiling will take place as a result of this bill?

Did it not take place before this bill?



Yeah, because California and Mexico's economies are something worth depending on.


Good point UncleBob, racial profiling exists in and of itself, and does not need a bill to tell it to exist.

#217 Knoell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:54 AM

lol

Yes, so you'll be wrong 80% of the time, but 1 in 10 Asian people are illegal immigrants, so you should ask the Asian people too, what's the difference if you're wrong 90% of the time versus 80%? And then again, maybe 1 in 10,000 European-looking white guys (rather than hispanic white guys, which you probably wouldn't know the difference anyway) are illegal too, so you'll be wrong like 99.99% of the time or something, but whatever, Fuck it.

So why not ask everybody again?

And your quote, similarly, uses the probability wrong.

"Just because someone is Middle Eastern doesn't make them a terrorist, but it does increase the chances that they are."

No it doesn't. It's very very unlikely that any particular Middle Easterner is going to be a terrorist, and being Middle Eastern doesn't increase the chances that they're a terrorist - a terrorist is more likely to be Middle Eastern than some other race/ethnicity. I'm trying to explain that distinction to you, do you understand what I'm saying?


Way to take one or two lines out of my post to hammer down that it doesnt make sense, seeing as how the whole thing is put together to make one whole point.

#218 Knoell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:56 AM

Another excellent strawman, but no one, including me, believes this. We think that as a result of this bill, racial profiling, although banned, will still take place. Some hispanic who is here legally will be asked for his documentation because he's suspected to be here illegally. That's wrong. The definition of reasonable suspicion is so fucking ambiguous.

I'm not knocking the AZ cops, they have been given an amazing amount of discretion because of this law. But there are gonna be a few Arpaio-bad-eggs out there that will take advantage of that.

I agree with that excerpt from that article. It should be action based, not race based.

What does a Muslim look like anyway? The underwear bomber certainly didn't look 'Middle Eastern'.


Arent there going to be a few "arpaio bad-eggs" regardless of this law?

Noone seems to be talking about what racial profiling actually is, only that it will target all hispanics, which is untrue. I put a definition out there, but it was ignored, I would like to know what you think racial profiling is, when it comes to police?

#219 IRHari

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:15 PM

Douchebag, read everything I wrote. I said I agree with the excerpt from the article which defines racial profiling as not only race based but action based. I agree with that.

I don't know if thats what police use when they 'racially profile.'
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#220 fatherofcaitlyn

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:23 PM

But seriously, do you really think cops are going to walk down the street asking people? Doubt it, they will probably enact it when they stop people who cannot produce ID, or when they raid companies suspected of employing illegals.

So logic would dictate that you would catch more illegal immigrants by asking more hispanics for their papers rather than say asians. As long as you ask some asians, what is wrong with asking more hispanics?


Actually, that is exactly what people think cops will start doing. Lawful contact would include a beat cop walking within an arm's reach of anybody.

http://carlosmiller....cop-demands-it/

In Texas, the guy got to walk away. In Arizona, the guy would be arrested.

As far as logic dictating a course of action, have you done any cost/benefit analysis regarding the cost of locating, detaining and deporting an average illegal alien versus the cost of the services an average illegal alien consumes?
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#221 Knoell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:19 PM

Actually, that is exactly what people think cops will start doing. Lawful contact would include a beat cop walking within an arm's reach of anybody.

http://carlosmiller....cop-demands-it/

In Texas, the guy got to walk away. In Arizona, the guy would be arrested.

As far as logic dictating a course of action, have you done any cost/benefit analysis regarding the cost of locating, detaining and deporting an average illegal alien versus the cost of the services an average illegal alien consumes?


The person was standing with a video camera by himself, video taping cops after a shooting for apparently no reason. There was no commentary, he was just sitting there video taping cops, I would call that suspicious activity. I dont understand why you wouldnt give the cops the benefit of the doubt, I would not like it if some random guy was zooming in on me with the video camera.

So with your logic, if I steal $40,000 dollars from a bank, but then get caught, if the costs of prosecuting me and jailing me outweigh what I stole, I shouldnt be prosecuted?

Until they change the law to be in this country illegally is breaking the law plain and simple, if you want to be a citizen go through proper channels, noone has a problem with legal immigrants.

#222 mykevermin

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:31 PM

well, at least now we have the conservative folk dropping the charade that "lawful contact" is a contingency that involves having violated the law or suspicion of violated the law.

That feels better - now that that's out of the way, we can talk about whether it's ethical or constitutional for police to demand proof of citizenship or legal alien status of people who aren't violating the law.
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#223 Knoell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:01 PM

well, at least now we have the conservative folk dropping the charade that "lawful contact" is a contingency that involves having violated the law or suspicion of violated the law.

That feels better - now that that's out of the way, we can talk about whether it's ethical or constitutional for police to demand proof of citizenship or legal alien status of people who aren't violating the law.


The guy was standing in front of a government building after a shooting video taping cops, with no commentary or anything, just standing there with a video camera zooming in on cops. How is that not suspicious? It proves that he was indeed suspicious since people were walking around and they werent being hassled.

#224 darkslime

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:24 PM

Until they change the law to be in this country illegally is breaking the law plain and simple, if you want to be a citizen go through proper channels, noone has a problem with legal immigrants.

The process of coming here legally can cost thousands of dollars and takes months or even years. If you can barely afford to feed your family you can't do that.

#225 Strell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:26 PM

I like how people coming to this country to find a better life doesn't fall under a Republican's definition of freedom. That's cute.

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#226 Msut77

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:29 PM

I like how people coming to this country to find a better life doesn't fall under a Republican's definition of freedom. That's cute.

"You came from your own shithole country, you say, to my vast glorious nation of Doubledown chuggers and two-for-Tuesday pizza rolls? Weeeeeeeeeeeeelll, Fuck your shit!"


Elian Gonzales?

#227 Strell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 04:30 PM

Now Msut. KFC didn't have the Doubledown when Elian was here. You're just being silly.


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#228 Knoell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 05:18 PM

I like how people coming to this country to find a better life doesn't fall under a Republican's definition of freedom. That's cute.

"You came from your own shithole country, you say, to my vast glorious nation of Doubledown chuggers and two-for-Tuesday pizza rolls? Weeeeeeeeeeeeelll, Fuck your shit!"


Illegally is a keyword in this debate. Noone disputes legal immigrants.

#229 Knoell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 05:20 PM

The process of coming here legally can cost thousands of dollars and takes months or even years. If you can barely afford to feed your family you can't do that.


Then reduce the cost, or make the benefits of coming here legally outweigh the illegality of coming here illegaly. We are giving them the idea that coming here illegally is just fine and in some cases better and cheaper than legally.

#230 fatherofcaitlyn

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 05:25 PM

The person was standing with a video camera by himself, video taping cops after a shooting for apparently no reason. There was no commentary, he was just sitting there video taping cops, I would call that suspicious activity. I dont understand why you wouldnt give the cops the benefit of the doubt, I would not like it if some random guy was zooming in on me with the video camera.

So with your logic, if I steal $40,000 dollars from a bank, but then get caught, if the costs of prosecuting me and jailing me outweigh what I stole, I shouldnt be prosecuted?

Until they change the law to be in this country illegally is breaking the law plain and simple, if you want to be a citizen go through proper channels, noone has a problem with legal immigrants.


A shooting occurred. The lone shooter was caught. A man with a videocamera was filming B roll hours after the incident. That isn't suspicious. If the man had visible press credentials, it is even less suspicious. Nobody can tell from the video. I googled "gun concealed in video camera" and there aren't a bunch of stories about murderers hiding guns in video cameras.

Regarding cops, they don't get the benefit of the doubt. Sorry. It's just a personal preference.

Regarding cost/benefit, you are following my logic. If your illegal immigrant is going to take $1 million to permanently deport him versus $999,999 to allow him to stay, it makes sense to take no action unless there is some other factor involved. <here's where you can talk about the principle of the thing ;)> If you could phase like Shadowcat into a bank vault and steal a certain amount of money without causing any physical or psychological damage to anybody or anything, you wouldn't be pursued as actively as a bank robber who pistol whipped a guard, shoot somebody trying to be a hero and ran over a bunch of people during a high speed chase.

So, let's go back to an earlier post.
Example 1: An illegal immigrant has a child in our schools who wasn't born in this country. Kick the kid out. Then, the kid has to be homeschooled or neglected.
Example 2: The illegal is receiving food stamps or public housing. Kick them out and cut off the aid. Then, more of the illegal's pay is spent maintaining their existence. The advantage for them to stay here is lessened.
Example 3: The illegal is sitting in an ER. Demand proof of insurance and citizenship at check in. Insurance and citizenship? Front of the line. Just citizenship? Near the front of the line. Just insurance? Near the back of the line. Neither? Last of the line.
Example 4: The illegal is somehow injured due to neglect such as hot coffee or wet floors at a McD's, obvious workplace dangers or bleeding in an ER. No ability to sue since the action occurred during the commission of the crime of being in the country illegally. Obviously, waivers for tourists would need to be in place.

Rather than creating a fascist state, let's reduce the benefit for the illegal to stay in our country.
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#231 Nogib

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 05:27 PM

I like how people coming to this country to find a better life doesn't fall under a Republican's definition of freedom. That's cute.


As usual you're too blinded to see the reality here (no surprise). No one is against immigration. People are against illegal immigration. There is a key difference. Instead you spew your typical liberal lies to make yourself feel better.
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#232 fatherofcaitlyn

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 05:34 PM

As usual you're too blinded to see the reality here (no surprise). No one is against immigration. People are against illegal immigration. There is a key difference. Instead you spew your typical liberal lies to make yourself feel better.


What are your thoughts on political asylum?
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#233 JolietJake

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 06:07 PM

No one is against immigration, yeah sure.

I enjoy the videos and puns posted by Joliet Jake. I think he's almost as funny as my favorite comedian, Dane Cook. Now excuse me while I listen to Fallout Boy's music on their myspace page.


#234 soulvengeance

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 06:12 PM

The guy was standing in front of a government building after a shooting video taping cops, with no commentary or anything, just standing there with a video camera zooming in on cops. How is that not suspicious? It proves that he was indeed suspicious since people were walking around and they werent being hassled.


How is this suspicious, or even remotely illegal? This line of thought is exactly why I don't want cops profiling.
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#235 speedracer

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 07:03 PM

The person was standing with a video camera by himself, video taping cops after a shooting for apparently no reason. There was no commentary, he was just sitting there video taping cops, I would call that suspicious activity. I dont understand why you wouldnt give the cops the benefit of the doubt, I would not like it if some random guy was zooming in on me with the video camera.

Because this exact situation has been litigated OVER AND OVER AND OVER and the cops lose OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Not only that, but it's happened so damn often than police training has specifically covered this instance for years if not decades, which means it is done solely to intimidate.

The person filming must materially interfere. Intentionally positioning themselves between the officers and suspects is enough to warrant arrest. Yea, the rules are broken down that low.

But yea, I could see how you would support the government's ability to arrest on suspicion of what again..? Citizen standing on a corner with a camera?
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#236 Strell

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 07:06 PM

No one is against immigration.


How adoooooooooooooorable!


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#237 depascal22

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 07:13 PM

If no one is against immigration, why are we only worried about one of our borders? I never see any push to build a huge fence along our border in the Great White North.

Also, do you think immigrants from Eastern Europe have it easier or worse than their brethren from the Americas?

#238 The Crotch

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 07:57 PM

If no one is against immigration, why are we only worried about one of our borders? I never see any push to build a huge fence along our border in the Great White North.

Impracticality? Numbers?

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#239 darkslime

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:33 PM

Impracticality? Numbers?

Exactly. That point was flawed because most people don't want to immigrate from Canada to here because Canada is a pretty good country, whereas a lot of parts of Mexico are a third world country and there are lots of corrupt police, drug wars, and not many jobs.

#240 The Crotch

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 11:31 PM

...

Darkslime just agreed with me...

Ah, horse cocks...

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