CAGcast #210: The Perfect Length

[preview][IMG-L=5838]15060[/IMG-L]This week's big topics include: Metroid: Other M, game length vs. value, Game Room missteps, Move, Kinect, the latest game shopping and industry news, your CAGbag and Twitter questions and so much more.

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Show Linkage/Notes (click the button below to expand):

Early CAGcast!!!!!!

YAY I love early CAG cast !!

Thanks I was bored I needed something to listen to.

awesome. something for the work day tomorrow.

Just finished up last weeks show and gonna start on this right away.

Any reason why the font size for the note section is all screwy?

Cheapy, have you tried Eve Online? After hearing your description of the kind of sci fi type game you'd like to play, I'd say you should check it out since there is a Mac version.

Wow so it looks like there are advantages to staying up at 3 in the morning. Thanks Cheapy!

This and a new TRS will get me through the night shift...

If Shipwreck liked Other M a lot, I wouldn't be surprised since he loves games made by Team Ninja. Whether it be Ninja Gaiden, Dead or Alive, or Metroid. I also hope you aren't implying it's a short game.

Also Cheapy, a price point of $7 is better than $10, however a price point of 560 points is not. I hate the awkward points for DLC on the marketplace.

Sweet, something to listen to between classes

Awesome new Cagcast just caught up to the latest eps :]

Woo, bombcast and CAGcast on the same day

Great Cagcast.

I have to agree with you guys. I really do not see why some analyst believe that Kinect and Move will sell great. It is way to late to get into the motion control market for this generation. The Wii has dominated that market already for years and just NOW they are trying to break in ? My mom and fiance have a Wii which they play every now and then. None of them even know what the hell Kinect or Move is lol. I in know way consider them to be an excellent sample of the video game population but I consider them to be very casual players and if this were to have caught their interest in any way I probably would have heard about it =P

Can't wait for your review on Metroid: Other M.

For a game like ME2 vehicle base missions are cool... but if a huge portion of the game was based around random space combat, i think it would kill the feeling of ME. However if they were to implement a vehicle mission that involved space combat, I believe I would really enjoy that. It would have to be implemented as a part of the story and specific to only a section of the game. For instance an invasion of a planet or an escape (just examples I know they are cliche If they implemented space combat where you just roll up to a ship and engage in combat I would be pretty disappointed.

And to the person that lost his brother and was feeling guilty about using the PS3. Don't do that to yourself. You have to believe that your brother would be happy about you using and enjoying his PS3. Remember he loves you. When you play it... think of the good times you and him may have had playing it together. I'm sorry for your loss.

Haven't listened yet, but was the Chicago CAG meet-up (Sept. 11 @ The Galloping Ghost Arcade) announced on this episode? Maybe next one (if it wasn't)?

Thanks!

I looked up the Miranda cosplay pictures. Don't get me wrong, that chick is 1,000 times hotter than any girl I've been with. Saying that, I was a little disappointed. In game Miranda is way hotter.

HAHA thanks for the reminder forgot to look that up =P

[quote name='Hoffer']I looked up the Miranda cosplay pictures. Don't get me wrong, that chick is 1,000 times hotter than any girl I've been with. Saying that, I was a little disappointed. In game Miranda is way hotter. [/QUOTE]

Awesome can't wait to listen!!!

In regards to the $7 XBLA price point:

Yes, it is more enjoyable than $10, but how much of this stuff would have been $5 a year ago? It seems like $7 is the new $5, and sadly they started moving to that just shortly after finally allowing you to buy $5 and $10 MS Point denominations. Now we're back to the spare change problem again.

To clarify: I think the Overlord DLC was well worth $7, but I can't say the same about the Kasumi mission.(enjoyable, but more palatable at $5). I'm sure Liara DLC will be a little more significant and not regrettable at $10.

I need to defend firehawk12's comment about importing ME1 save to ME2. What I thought he meant about being a Paragon is this: If you imported a ME1 save where you were Paragon and saved the Citadel, it will be mentioned by Miranda in ME2 and you will receive bonus Paragon points which stack with your Paragon points in ME2 and help you out with decisions in which you can side with both party members who are fighting.

From what I remember, if you started out in ME2 without any saves at all, they will mention that you failed at saving the Citadel and you start out as a Renegade by default. It's a big deal in terms of the story, imo. But like Wombat said, we can probably expect this issue to be addressed by Bioware in ME2 for the PS3.

this is vegas.....wet t shirt mini game!!!!dancing!!!!canceled... *tear rolling down my angry face*

Achievements on the Xbox part of the Win Phone 7 definitely go into your regular gamer score. See the Gizmodo piece here.

Every Xbox Live game on Windows Phone 7 has a 200 gamerscore, just like Xbox Live Arcade games, and will accrue to your overall gamerscore. That integrated experience is reflected in your Avatar as well: any customizations you make on the phone will be reflected immediately on the console, and vice versa.

Click to expand...

Pretty cool.

That said, I'm waiting a year to see how things work out with the phone OS in general. I just bought an android phone last week (EVO).

I support Cheapy's suggestion for space battles in Mass Effect 3. It's the next step! Normandy vs enemy ships would be sweet.

I'm actually waiting for Windows Phone 7, and have held off from buying a smart phone until the WP7 OS comes out. My excitement comes from the fact that it will XNA games, and XNA is the easiest to develop games on, imo.
(Disclaimer: I'm basing this on the fact that I have no Mac, but would have to buy one to develop on it. In addition to that I think I remember hearing you have to pay for the development environment. Also, I've never used Objective-C (Android development), but can foresee it being more painful than using C#+XNA)

To fight the late release Microsoft has somewhat told it's developers to make interesting apps (I think I read that on ArsTechnica). Also, I'm assuming they'll learn from the iOS and Andriod marketplaces and keep a close eye on theirs.

However, I won't stand in line to buy a WP7 phone. I'm more cautiously optimistic. I want to see how well it's received before buying one.

[quote name='LiK']I need to defend firehawk12's comment about importing ME1 save to ME2. What I thought he meant about being a Paragon is this: If you imported a ME1 save where you were Paragon and saved the Citadel, it will be mentioned by Miranda in ME2 and you will receive bonus Paragon points which stack with your Paragon points in ME2 and help you out with decisions in which you can side with both party members who are fighting.
.[/QUOTE]

I didn't save the citadel in ME1 and still got the options to side with both parties when they are fighting.

When I played on PC w/o importing an ME1 save, I didn't get these options.

[quote name='usickenme']I didn't save the citadel in ME1 and still got the options to side with both parties when they are fighting.

When I played on PC w/o importing an ME1 save, I didn't get these options.[/QUOTE]

You didn't save the Citadel but you were still playing as a Paragon in ME2 right? I think if you continued to choose all Paragon options in ME2 from the beginning, you will still be able to choose both sides during an argument. I only know that you get mega bonus from ME1 so it made it easier to max out Paragon compared to starting out with a blank slate in ME2.

[quote name='LiK']I need to defend firehawk12's comment about importing ME1 save to ME2. What I thought he meant about being a Paragon is this: If you imported a ME1 save where you were Paragon and saved the Citadel, it will be mentioned by Miranda in ME2 and you will receive bonus Paragon points which stack with your Paragon points in ME2 and help you out with decisions in which you can side with both party members who are fighting.

From what I remember, if you started out in ME2 without any saves at all, they will mention that you failed at saving the Citadel and you start out as a Renegade by default. It's a big deal in terms of the story, imo. But like Wombat said, we can probably expect this issue to be addressed by Bioware in ME2 for the PS3.[/QUOTE]

Yeah exactly what I was going to say. Also I hope Bioware is doing more than just that "Previously on Mass Effect" video that is on the XBL Marketplace right now for PS3-only users sake.

Although I have a sneaky feeling that will always be dead in Mass Effect 2 games on either platform that start from scratch.

Yeah Cheapy for using the REAL Press Your Luck theme for this show. I'm assumming you'll talk about PYL later in the show (at the Mafia II discussion now) but I'm so pissed off at Ludia. I owned the PC version of the game (later traded on Goozex) and have the IPhone version and they don't use the real theme and the AI is some of the worst I've ever seen. It's sad when the Apple IIe version (the only other time PYL was officially released as a video game) is superior in every sense other than graphics of the version that comes out almost 20 years later.

[quote name='MSUHitman']Yeah exactly what I was going to say. Also I hope Bioware is doing more than just that "Previously on Mass Effect" video that is on the XBL Marketplace right now for PS3-only users sake.

Although I have a sneaky feeling that will always be dead in Mass Effect 2 games on either platform that start from scratch.[/QUOTE]

Ah yea, my memory is a lil hazy whether it was about specifically. But importing a ME1 Paragon save file definitely had its perks for ME2.

Whoo! Day early! It's funny Wombat said "You have 209 episodes to listen to to find out I'm an ass." cause that's exactly what I've been doing. Up to CAGcast #24 right now.

I also wanted to mention that I set up my Sync on my new Fusion. All I had to say was "Play Cagcast" to start the show

Checked out that Ars Technica article, good read. I totally agree with the author on this one. Especially with not having as much time to play games in the last couple years after graduating from college and having a full-time job, along with other adult responsibilities, I don't like when developers add unnecessary filler to their games just to make them longer. I much prefer a more focused, finely-created experience.

The value of a game (like many things in life) changes so differently from person to person, so it seems useless to argue about it in absolute terms. The amount and types of game content (i.e., different gameplay modes, approximate completion time, etc.) are, in fact, a part of the purchasing decision, but only insofar as these facts needing to be noted by a reviewer or whomever is covering the game. From there, people can judge for themselves whether they want to purchase/play a game.

Also, since Shipwreck mentioned it, just wanted to say I've been playing Ys Seven as well. I'm about 10 hours in, got near the end of the Wind Altar dungeon, couldn't figure out the puzzle though, sadly. Probably going to try to figure it out tonight, fun game! It doesn't go anything revolutionary as an action RPG, but it's definitiely solid.

Say shmup. WHO CARES!

Cheapy, you should try infinite space on the ds. its all ship and crew customization and big battlestar style ship to ship space action.

Finally something worth listening to. I do not have much to look forward to here in Afghanistan. Thanks and keep up the good work.

Shipwreck, you mentioned that Mafia II isn't a shooter. The demo definitely felt very shooter-heavy. Do you feel that the demo isn't an accurate representation of the game? Just wondering since I really liked the demo, and I want to get in on the Kmart $20 coupon if I decide to pick up the game...

Cheapy you might also like the Spore kinda a space shooter where you can sell different items on different planets and what not...also fun to create your own creatures, but for some reason all my creatures I created seem to have large penises.

I'm very excited for Mass Effect 2 on the PS3! From hearing the CAGcast and the slight problems with the Xbox version that they'll be fixed for the PS3. Also hopefully it will include the DLC for it.

whould the people with a problem with the Shmup name also have a problem with calling it a Shoot 'em Up?

If abbreviation is the issue, then it would be a Shoot Them Up, right?

Good show! I enjoyed this show so much... I ended up going late to work. I had to listen to most of the show before I could leave!

In reference to Mass Effect 3 -
I like Cheapy's idea of adding in some of the Space Combat. Adding in space combat in Mass Effect brought me back to another game - Wing Commander (PSX) where you'd fly a mission and then you'd come back to the main ship and interact with the characters in conversation and your choices during the conversation dictated where the game's story. Mass Effect is just a mixture of genres, so far you have RPG, and 3rd Person shooting, I think that adding in the space combat genre into the game could breathe a lot of new life into the game. It'd be nice if you have a special squadron that works together and does missions togeher. I'd love to see a mission where you're defending the main ship and then at the end of the mission the main ship gets shot down and then you have to harvest minerals form the new planet where you crash landed in order to repair the main ship. I think that your idea is great Cheapy, you're not alone in your thinking. If there is a market for Ace combat then there's still a market for some good space combat, we haven't really had any since Star Wars Jedi StarFighter.



If the 3DS is priced at 199 will people still buy it? I thought that the low price of the DS is what made it sell. At 199, the 3DS will be like another PSP. [Hopefully Sony will release a PSP with dual sticks, and at a price tag that's lower than the 3DS; 150 could be a great price for a new PSP... if they do that, they'll outsell the 3DS... maybe.

How come you guys didn't mention the Ars Technica article where the author indicated that he felt like the PS Move was a better deal than Xbox Kinect due to the cheaper price and the inclusion of a game. [I'm surprised you didn't mention it, since you guys seem to love articles from Ars Technica] http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1119692

I agree with Shipwreck that Length does matter, but I think that people are sometimes to quick to be dismissive of a game if it's short. But me personally, I rather have a nice complete game and not one that tries to create length by having you back track into an area, just to increase the game's length. Ship you reviewed DeathSmiles 49.99 (with some very nice extras) but gave it a very good even though you ran through the game (first run through) in 45 minutes. I'm sorry but for 45 minutes worth of game I don't think that's even worth 10 dollars. (which makes the extras: CD Soundtrack, and Faceplate cost about 40 dollars, imo).

[quote name='MSUHitman']Yeah exactly what I was going to say. Also I hope Bioware is doing more than just that "Previously on Mass Effect" video that is on the XBL Marketplace right now for PS3-only users sake.

Although I have a sneaky feeling that will always be dead in Mass Effect 2 games on either platform that start from scratch.

[/QUOTE]

[quote name='LiK']Ah yea, my memory is a lil hazy whether it was about specifically. But importing a ME1 Paragon save file definitely had its perks for ME2.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I was all set to post a response but you guys covered it. Thanks!
Of course, Shipwreck also wasn't able to see arguably the best character in the Mass Effect franchise - - because of what the game assumes is true. The fact that the game also assumes that you are Renegade if you start a new character can also be frustrating if you want to play a Paragon.

There are also many small changes, including that you will just miss if you jump into ME2 without importing. I agree that most of it is pointless email BS, but there's some "flavor" that you miss out on.

Also, I thank Cheapy for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Mass Effect 3 could be a 3DS game for all I care - that's not what matters to me. I just think that if you are a "fan" of the Mass Effect franchise, you'd want the optimum experience. Given how tame the connectivity from ME1 to ME2 was at launch, I can't imagine that they'd spend money creating a whole new character creation process just for PS3 users.

And yes, you also get a substantial Paragon/Renegade bonus for importing a level 60 character. Although, if you min/max your conversations, it's entirely possible (if not difficult) to max out one of the bars on a standard, non-import playthrough.

Finally, I'm going to assume Wombat was just shitting me... but someone remind me to make a smart ass comment the next time he talks about some trivial matter concerning some comic book super hero that only he cares about.

[quote name='Thomas96']

In reference to Mass Effect 3 -
I like Cheapy's idea of adding in some of the Space Combat. Adding in space combat in Mass Effect brought me back to another game - Wing Commander (PSX) where you'd fly a mission and then you'd come back to the main ship and interact with the characters in conversation and your choices during the conversation dictated where the game's story. Mass Effect is just a mixture of genres, so far you have RPG, and 3rd Person shooting, I think that adding in the space combat genre into the game could breathe a lot of new life into the game. It'd be nice if you have a special squadron that works together and does missions togeher. I'd love to see a mission where you're defending the main ship and then at the end of the mission the main ship gets shot down and then you have to harvest minerals form the new planet where you crash landed in order to repair the main ship. I think that your idea is great Cheapy, you're not alone in your thinking. If there is a market for Ace combat then there's still a market for some good space combat, we haven't really had any since Star Wars Jedi StarFighter.[/QUOTE]

I hope it's not too spoilery, but Fallout 3 (via Mothership Zeta) had space bound ship to ship combat where you played captain of a ship and had to order people to fire weapons and transfer shield power and all that. I wouldn't mind that kind of combat being introduced into ME3... but a full blown space sim might be too much.

I know CheapyD can't do PC gaming anymore, but Darkstar One for the PC is like 5 dollars now so that would be a really easy and cheap way to try out the game.

I would think that in ME2 on PS3 they might expand the interview with Miranda and Jacob that goes on when you're on your way to first meet the Illusive Man.

Speaking of Illusive Man, is anyone annoyed by the way Shepard says it in the game? Like I know the guy is called Illusive Man, but I hate how he says it like Illusive is a proper noun instead of an adjective which I guess in this case is right, but I just think he sounds dumb and he's the only one that says it that way! Nitpicking...I know.

Also, the Scott Pilgrim game is awesome. Totally worth the 10 bucks.

[quote name='RichMeisterMan']I would think that in ME2 on PS3 they might expand the interview with Miranda and Jacob that goes on when you're on your way to first meet the Illusive Man.

Speaking of Illusive Man, is anyone annoyed by the way Shepard says it in the game? Like I know the guy is called Illusive Man, but I hate how he says it like Illusive is a proper noun instead of an adjective which I guess in this case is right, but I just think he sounds dumb and he's the only one that says it that way! Nitpicking...I know.

Also, the Scott Pilgrim game is awesome. Totally worth the 10 bucks.[/QUOTE]

That would lead me to ask the obvious question - why didn't they do that for the PC/360 version of the game? For whatever reason, the writers wanted the Renegade Shepard options from ME1 to be the canon. I'm not sure why though, other than the fact that most games assume you choose the "good ending" so I guess they wanted to try something different.

You know, I always just assumed that the Illusive Man just refers to that as his name, which is why everyone uses Illusive as a proper noun.

[quote name='firehawk12']The fact that the game also assumes that you are Renegade if you start a new character can also be frustrating if you want to play a Paragon.[/QUOTE]

It assumes that your character made some renegade decisions, which is quite different from saying that it assumes your character *is* a Renegade. And it doesn't hamper the ability to play as Paragon one iota.

[quote name='firehawk12']

I hope it's not too spoilery, but Fallout 3 (via Mothership Zeta) had space bound ship to ship combat where you played captain of a ship and had to order people to fire weapons and transfer shield power and all that. I wouldn't mind that kind of combat being introduced into ME3... but a full blown space sim might be too much.
[/QUOTE]

You may be right, about having a full blown space sim integrated into the game. But I think that if you do too little of it, then people will feel like its "tacked on."

I liked how Wombat used my comment from last week about the more monorail train and less Wombat. Hah!

-Shibby

i gotta say that I'm on your side with the space combat in Mass Effect 3 Cheapy, Wombat and Shipwreck were to quick to say no and I think you had some valid ideas.

[quote name='my2k2zx2']whould the people with a problem with the Shmup name also have a problem with calling it a Shoot 'em Up?

If abbreviation is the issue, then it would be a Shoot Them Up, right?[/QUOTE]

'em is an abbreviation/slang. Shmup is an acronym. Like I said, its like pronouncing the acronyms omg or wtf. You heard how bad it sounded when Wombat tried to pronounce them it. All my life ive never heard anyone pronounce "shmup", its just a short way to typing it, not pronouncing it.

[quote name='Thomas96']You may be right, about having a full blown space sim integrated into the game. But I think that if you do too little of it, then people will feel like its "tacked on."[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's true. But if the Hammerhead is any indication of how they would do vehicle stuff, maybe it's for the best that they just try to ignore that stuff as much as possible. I do agree that they need something to break up the monotony of the shooting though. I've finished the game three times to prep characters for ME3 and there's no question that the game is very, very boring once you figure out how to exploit the combat. They really need more things to do than just shooting people.

[quote name='bickle']It assumes that your character made some renegade decisions, which is quite different from saying that it assumes your character *is* a Renegade. And it doesn't hamper the ability to play as Paragon one iota.[/QUOTE]

Well, I choose to believe that some of the decisions you make in ME1 will play out in ME3. I could be deluded and BioWare may have no plans whatsoever, but after they dropped the ball in ME2, I have to imagine that they'll try to make up for it.

It's also probably just me, but I can't play schizophrenic characters because it's fairly inconsistent. After being a space asshole in ME1, your Shepard suddenly decides to be good in ME2? That just doesn't make sense to me.

If you don't care about the fate of characters or how the story plays out, that's fine. But then you're not "role playing", you're just playing an average third person shooter with cover mechanics.

Who won the Ys code from ep. 209?

Cheapy I'm torn on space combat in Mass Effect, but if done right, it would be awesome. Depending on how Bungie does with the space combat in Reach, I hope that:

1. They put it as a multiplayer mode. I wouldn't even mind paying for it.
2. EA has Bungie relaunch the Wing Commander IP.

I appreciate you guys don't fell the need to dedicate 20 minutes of every show to Starcraft2. Seems like every other podcast has.