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CAGcast #211: Very Controversial


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#31 rogXue

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 03:49 PM

Mik,

How does that connect to your receiver. If it is mimicking full surround sound wouldn't it need different channels? I've always been intrigued by soundbars but have never actively looked into them.

#32 mik

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 03:59 PM

It is the receiver, essentially. Everything goes in and out of the subwoofer. The bar has an array of speakers that are pointed in different directions to bounce the sound around and simulate surround.

#33 Broken Cage

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:37 PM

Ship, thanks for bringing up Ipod to blow Wombat's argument out of the water. Wombat has brought this up before, and every time I end up shouting "what about mp3 players then?"

His counter argument about it only can happen if you are an iconic brand like an ipod is weak too. Last I checked Target, Walmart and Best Buy all had dozens of different mp3 players. And the retailers can't even make extra money off of those with iTunes cards to sell.



That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod. It, and all MP3 players, have always been exclusively digital. There was never a market for Ipods and other MP3 players to take away from retailers. (Also MP3s are the result of extreme compression which can be detrimental to sound quality, thus many people still insist on buying the actual albums.)

Consoles, on the other hand, have ALWAYS had a physical media that retailers stocked and sold. To suddenly remove that revenue from the retailers only to improve their own cut could certainly lead to a backlash.

Edit: and before the argument that "mp3s hurt CD sales" comes up, that had nothing to do with Ipods or any other MP3 player on the market.

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#34 Falion

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:48 PM

I'm happy to hear Shipwreck defending Other M. I shared his love for Ninja Gaiden and disappointment for Ninja Gaiden 2, so I'm really hoping I agree with his feelings for Metroid.

#35 dubbfoolio

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 05:05 PM

Tycho is so full of fucking shit. I would never buy a $60 game without it having some sort of resale value. I think we're full aware that game companies (and industry leaches thereabout) would like for us to give more of our money to their cause. Fact is the ability to resale and transfer license of the software is already built into the price tag. If they want to go down the downloadable/drc/user license route they are going to run into a harsh reality that consumers are not willing to spend nearly as much on what essentially boils down to a game rental (See the app store). I'll echo Wombat's sentiment: "Go Fuck yourself richie rich."

#36 JadedJedi

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 05:12 PM

When discs are gone, there will be no more sales, since the purpose of sales is to move old product out to make room for new product. The games will just be files on a network server and you can just add more space. How many sales has Microsoft had on their games on demand? I don't ever remember them lowering a price on any of them. Who will sell the systems if there is no software? The manufacturer themselves. I don't know about you but if this happens and/or every future system generation is motion control only, I will stop playing new games. I should not be charged the same amount of money in store for a digital download. Take Starcraft 2 for instance, both the boxed version and dd are $60. With the dd I dont get a pretty box or a manual that I can read on the can. It should be at the most $50. This will be the end of freedom as we know it.

Edited by JadedJedi, 01 September 2010 - 05:17 PM.
spelling

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#37 mik

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 05:20 PM

Someone should remind Tycho that a person who gets a game for free from the publisher is no different to the developer than a person who pirates the game.

#38 dc_fortythree

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 05:49 PM

regarding the topic of MS increasing the yearly subscription price for LIVE i think the point isnt that CAGs dont have to pay full price, its that the final price after any discount applied to MSRP will now be higher. for example if the currnet deal price of a 12 month card is $40, that equates to a 20% discount. applying the same discount to the new price come November the net price has risen to $48. personally i dont have any interest in accessing Netflix streaming, ESPN ocho, or facebook on my 360 so to me im paying more for the same thing, the ability to play online.

#39 David Hibiki

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 05:52 PM

Like what was said - XBL and PSN games are download only because they are CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE. Good luck having a $50-$60 title released only PSN/XBL succeed. People are comfortable spending $10-$20 on a XBL/PSN title with DLC, but I bet money no one is gonna throw down $60 on a download only title *unless * it has the names of: Mario, Gran Turismo or Halo - and that would be a very risky move on the publishers part.

#40 ZombieJeebus

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 05:59 PM

That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod. It, and all MP3 players, have always been exclusively digital. There was never a market for Ipods and other MP3 players to take away from retailers. (Also MP3s are the result of extreme compression which can be detrimental to sound quality, thus many people still insist on buying the actual albums.)

Consoles, on the other hand, have ALWAYS had a physical media that retailers stocked and sold. To suddenly remove that revenue from the retailers only to improve their own cut could certainly lead to a backlash.

Edit: and before the argument that "mp3s hurt CD sales" comes up, that had nothing to do with Ipods or any other MP3 player on the market.


Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.
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#41 Wombat

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 06:07 PM

Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware.


no it wasn't

#42 4nik8tor

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 06:25 PM

Wombat.. where did you buy your xbox live sub?

#43 Wombat

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:02 PM

Wombat.. where did you buy your xbox live sub?


If you have auto-renew, call 1-800-4-my-xbox. Tell them you want to cancel your auto-renew, they will offer you 800 ms points to keep it on.

#44 eataburger

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:09 PM

There were 2 points in the podcast where I actually felt like I would say the SAME THING if I were on the show.

1. Nobody needs to pay full price for XBOX Gold anyways. There's always deals to be had.

2. Chippy D didn't just happen out of nothing. As Chris Rock says "As a father your ONLY goal is to keep your daughter off the pole".

#45 Broken Cage

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:16 PM

Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.


It really doesn't. Here's why: the MP3 player arrived after MP3s had already boomed. There was no available software to sell because there was an existing market of people already using that software. MP3s existed before the Ipod, and people were using them. Back when Winamp popped up in 97, through Napster, all of it hit before the Ipod existed. So it makes no sense to argue that they wouldn't sell Ipods because they can't sell MP3s. The MP3s were already there, the software was free flowing all over the internet. The hardware was where the money was.

The Ipod was invented in response to the software. Whereas the Xbox's software is created in response to the hardware. It's two completely different avenues. Apple nor any MP3 manufacturer had a foothold on MP3s to cut out other retailers, video games on the other hand are completely proprietary and retailers have the leverage to say "Hey, don't cut us out of your software or we won't carry your hardware."

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#46 FishyJoe

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:30 PM

your gonna have to wait cag cast, steve jobs has to tell me why i need new ipods first.

#47 eataburger

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:41 PM

your gonna have to wait cag cast, steve jobs has to tell me why i need new ipods first.


Cause you're a sucker? ;)

#48 Sarang01

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:03 PM

mik, your basement looks awesome!


Those brands aren't sold here. In fact, a vast majority of stuff that is available in America (especially HTIB stuff) is just not sold here.
Also, I don't remember if I mentioned it on the show, but my proximity to Tokyo Tower tends to cause speaker wire to transform into radio antennas.


Are you sure about Nakamichi? It's a Japanese brand. I could see that with Klipsch but not Nakamichi.

Shame to hear that about the speaker wire. Isn't there a way to shield that from radio signals? At least I would hope so.

Oh and shippy you really should look at some of the brands mannish and I mentioned. Klipsch has some fairly small speakers and there is definitely some raving about their quality going on.

Edited by Sarang01, 01 September 2010 - 08:03 PM.
Grammatical error.

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#49 AwRy108

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:04 PM

Wow, terrific podcast yet again, guys.

I absolutely loved hearing your opinions on the whole "Used Games Are Evil" subject: it's great to hear well-respected people actually offer a realistic argument on this matter, which is something that not even sites like Penny Arcade can offer up any more. The discussion amongst the three of you was one for the ages, and I really wish that all the other "popular" media outlets would listen to your conclusions, rather than just see things from such a black and white perspective. If publishers all truly have such an "anti-used" stance, then why don't they make more effort to lower the MSRP of games, rather than, say, shoe-horn in crappy multiplayer to try and justify a $60 sale price? Or why not sell the "Collector's Edition" of their titles at $60 and the normal editions at $50, rather than ask $70-$80 for what amounts to pennies worth of plastic? Consumers are generally pretty quick to realize when they're being ripped off (well, other than Halo fans and their cat helmets), so why do publishers keep finding new ways to creep the game prices up and then bitch about people buying used to save money? Sounds like a vicious cycle to me.

Couple quick things:
1) Anyone know what GameStop.com's run of good deals was such a short run? I was hoping to see them do more to compete with Wal*Mart, Amazon, and K*Mart for the Q4 pre-orders. What gives?

2) I'd strongly urge against the sound bar concept if you're looking for ture surround sound: I'm sure they work great in a pre-determined retail layout, but how well is the "sound reflecting" technology going to work in your personal spaces, taking into account both room size and barriers to proper reflectance? If you want an amazing set of small, balanced 5.1 speakers w/o paying Bose prices, check these out: Klipsch HD Theater 1000 5.1 ...combined with an Onkyo HD receiver you're still spending less than if you were just to buy a comparable set of Bose speakers.

3) It amazes me to hear the media's mixed reaction to the sweeping changes seen in Metroid - Other M, especially considering that most of the media felt like the FPS style of the Prime series was getting old. Just goes to show that, no matter what, you can't make people happy if their minds are made up ahead of time.

Edited by AwRy108, 01 September 2010 - 08:20 PM.


#50 Curufinwe

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:07 PM

When discs are gone, there will be no more sales, since the purpose of sales is to move old product out to make room for new product. The games will just be files on a network server and you can just add more space. How many sales has Microsoft had on their games on demand?


Are you really that ignorant that you don't know about all the amazing sales on Steam?

Curufinwe5503.png? Curufinwe.jpg


#51 RichMeisterMan

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:10 PM

To touch on the whole thing about fighting as the Taliban in Medal of Honor...

A lot of people say it's too soon, or the fact that it is recent means it's bad and it should be shunned. Well, my grandpa was a POW in a Japanese prison camp during World War II and we play as the Japanese in some WWII games. So how is this any different? Other than the fact that time has limited our ability to appreciate just how grave the situation is.

Killing Americans as the Taliban in Medal of honor is no worse than being the Japanese team and killing the Americans in any WWII title.

Are you really that ignorant that you don't know about all the FUCKING AMAZING sales on Steam?


Fixed!

#52 TheResistance

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:21 PM

It'd be nice if they had a 'phone in session' once a month or so... and get views from the British!

#53 Jon F

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:22 PM

I'm curious what other people think of the sound bars. I haven't had the opportunity to demo one yet. I have been to a Bose demo room and thought it sounded fine. The problem with Bose to me is that the bass is a little on the weak side. I have a 7.1 system in a dedicated theater in one of my spare bedrooms that I use for movies and console gaming. I understand why people don't want their living rooms to be filled with intrusive electronics and speakers - I crammed it all in a bedroom instead. ;) I bought most of the speakers off of Craigslist and eBay from a series of Acoustic Research speakers built around 2000. I built the sub boxes myself.

Screen is in 16:9 mode (92" diagonal).

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#54 MaxBiaggi3

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:29 PM

As a general rule, I try to buy most of my games new. I can appreciate the developer/publisher getting paid for their work, even if it isn't a top-tier title.

Unfortunately, many new release games aren't worth full retail price to me, so I either wait for the inevitable price drop(s) or buy used if the price is reasonable. (Note to Gamestop: a used game for $2 below the retail price of a new copy is not reasonable.)

Most of the games I buy used are old enough that finding a new copy would be difficult anyway. I don't feel guilty buying older used games. For recent releases, I'll watch for a sale on a new copy rather than risk a scratched disc, worn case or missing manual on a used model for just a few bucks less.

#55 Adamu Kuezada

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:30 PM

Cheapy your ringtones sucks.

#56 apathylad

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:49 PM

Personally, I think G4's attacks on Metroid being "sexist" are just silly. What's ironic is that G4 isn't exactly what I call a classy network in their portrayal of women.

On the subject of used games, I never understood the hostility on the subject matter. People buy/rent used products all the time, such as books, movies, cars, etc. Furthermore, if developers and publishers don't like the way GameStop does business, why does GameStop always get exclusive preorder bonuses?

As for Wombat and Shipwreck's Digital vs. Physical debate, that's a trickier subject. The problem with digital games is that games tend to be larger than the average XBLA title. The thought of downloading a PS3 Blu-Ray to my console sounds like it would be time consuming and frustrating. Also, with Nintendo appealing to the casual market this generation, and Sony & Microsoft trying to match that audience, I'm not convinced casual crowds would be interested in exclusively digital titles.

#57 shipwreck

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:54 PM

2) I'd strongly urge against the sound bar concept if you're looking for ture surround sound: I'm sure they work great in a pre-determined retail layout, but how well is the "sound reflecting" technology going to work in your personal spaces, taking into account both room size and barriers to proper reflectance? If you want an amazing set of small, balanced 5.1 speakers w/o paying Bose prices, check these out: Klipsch HD Theater 1000 5.1 ...combined with an Onkyo HD receiver you're still spending less than if you were just to buy a comparable set of Bose speakers.


While I'm sure the quality of those speakers and receiver are excellent... they are bulky compared to Bose. The Klipsch satellite speakers are 189.2 cubic inches each while the Bose satellite speakers are 32.9 cubic inches each. That's 5.75 times the volume. The Onkyo receiver is 1758 cubic inches while the Bose receiver is 463 cubic inches. That's 3.8 times the volume.

I'm trying to keep things compact and simple while still sounding good.
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#58 lokizz

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 08:56 PM

$10 says Wombat says something that makes ppl dislike him.



thats easy money lol seriously to say its backwards to own a ps3 before having an hd tv is retarted. i waited to get a ps3 until i could get a bc model at a decent price and then i waited to get an hd tv until i knew more about them and could get one at a decent price.

for someone who loves to haggle over everything they purchase its kinda assanine to throw out a statement like that but its what he does best so hes at least living up to low expectations.

and that shit about laurence fishburne being responsible for his kid being in porn is bs to. shit happens an regardless of what a parent says or does for their kids guess what some kids will do whatever the Fuck they want.
the chick even said shes doing it to become famous because unfortunately alot of people have made themselves famous doing that shit. being the father of a daughter yourself you should be careful of how you pass judgement on someone elses parenting skills.

and then youve got cheapy saying the gta stories werent any good but mafia 2 was amazing. he didnt even finish san andreas , which had the best gta story imo, so how can he even begin to judge the game? its obvious the guy cant focus on a game unless its easy enough for him to plow through or its got cheesy shit for him to enjoy.

sr2 was a fun game but that game had one of the worst stories ive ever seen in a game and compared to gta sa is a very shitty game.

man and did you hear the pain in cheapys voice when he had to admit the 3d in motorstorm 2 was fun and worked well but then quickly went on to say its still not worth buying lol.

#59 Droogs

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:20 PM

I just wanted to give some helpful tips on the back hair issue. I used to have my girlfriend do it, but that ended long ago. I then did an internet search and found a funny looking product that allows you to do it yourself. You just stick a razor in it and voila. Funny story...I had it hanging in my shower hanging from a hook and when my mom came over to visit, she saw it and asked me what it was. Me being the awkward person that I am, told her that it's a sex toy.

Link: http://www.amazon.co...83375891&sr=8-3

#60 ZombieJeebus

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 09:23 PM

no it wasn't


From the 45:13 mark:

Wombat: Financially speaking, Best Buy would stop selling consoles if they had no games to sell with them. And if BB, Target, Walmart etc all of a sudden said "we're not selling your consoles anymore, if you don't start releasing some disc based games", then they're not going to sell consoles anymore.

Ship: Well what about ipods then?

Wombat: ahhhhhhh...
=============================

The implication is that without software to supplement them, the margins for selling consoles is so thin that it is not worth it for retailers to sell them.

I don't buy this. Hardware has a much much longer shelf life than software, which in today's market goes in the crapper after the first week unless it is a AAA title.

I agree with your assertion the retail market will always be there. Retailers still reserve some space for CDs and DVDs.

I disagree in the amount of pull you think retailers have on MS and Sony's plans for digital content. They couldn't stop music going digital, they didn't even have the awareness to try. Games are no different.
"I love you. But I also love hanging up on you."
Cheapy D, 12/16/2009