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CAGcast #211: Very Controversial


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#91 chunktek

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:20 PM

regarding the topic of MS increasing the yearly subscription price for LIVE i think the point isnt that CAGs dont have to pay full price, its that the final price after any discount applied to MSRP will now be higher. for example if the currnet deal price of a 12 month card is $40, that equates to a 20% discount. applying the same discount to the new price come November the net price has risen to $48. personally i dont have any interest in accessing Netflix streaming, ESPN ocho, or facebook on my 360 so to me im paying more for the same thing, the ability to play online.


Not to mention the new "features" Microsoft have added either require an additional subscription (Netflix) or are already free (Facebook). I don't care about sports yet here we go again subsidizing the cost of ESPN just like with Cable TV. If Microsoft wants to charge more for these "features" then they need to move to a tiered service, a lower price for gaming only vs. a higher priced for all the other crap.

BTW I'm trying to be a good consumer and vote w/ my wallet. I bought a PS3 last week and let my XBL account expire down to silver.

Also, for a show supposedly based around cheap gaming, Cheapy, Wombat, and Shipwreck are always quick to say "I don't see a problem" with price increases.

#92 lowgear26

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:29 PM

Retailers make lots of bank off of Ipod accessories. Thats were all the profit comes in. All those ear buds, cases,protective screens,bling,adapters,recharge stations,alarm stations, ect. Thats were the money is. On a console theres lots of accessories, but in gerneral most people are probably only buying a few at most, but people are always replacing their ear buds.


+1

Retailers offer all these products to get our asses into the stores. Why would everyone go digital? If stores like Wal-Mart and Target offered non physical ways to sell all of your games, they would cut their own throats by reducing foot traffic in their business.

On another topic, as a family man, I can't buy every new game I want. I have other responsibilities in life and a $60 game is not always reasonable for me. I used to be the type to always buy something day 1 when I could afford to but people who only have to look after their own self can have more disposable income for gaming.

If people were forced to shell out for only NEW games, gaming would never be as popular as it has become.
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#93 Z_meista

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:44 PM

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The parts of the world that consume this stuff have fast enough internet. As you can see we here in America are certainly not the standard. Plus, anyone that buys their PC games digitally download full games already via their connection. We have the resources to do this.


Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA. Besides, isn't it easier to just buy the game at the store, pop the game in your console and play?

#94 KillerRamen

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 12:08 AM

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA. Besides, isn't it easier to just buy the game at the store, pop the game in your console and play?


I think we'll see more retail games become downloadable as an option, but I do not understand the persistence of some for digital distribution as a standard. I like owning things, I like sales and I like having a game collection.

If a console were to be dd only, the console maker would have a monopoly over the sale of games on their console (unlike downloadable PC games), so that would only ensure super high prices. If you don't believe me, you have to look no further than Xbox Games on Demand and the PSP Go.

I think developers should try both and let the market decide. I think they will find that more people prefer retail games.
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#95 bickle

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 01:00 AM

That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod.


*BZZZZT* Wrong. CD's.

#96 Calinks

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 01:04 AM

Alright. I got a few points to make.

First of all. I have only listened to about the last 4 of these cagcast but I must say, they are great entertainment. Thank you for putting these out every week. I listen to them when I go to the gym and it's like I'm not even working out becasue I am being so entertained. Great stuff.

About Mafia 2. I have to agree with Cheapy on this one. Originally I was going to buy this game, the trailers looked great and I have always been a fan of those GTA-esque titles. I played the demo and I was a little disappointed.

Then I read the reviews and I decided not to buy the game. Instead, I gave the game a rent and although I am still happy I didn't drop $60 on it, I think the game overall is a great experience. I really enjoy the atmosphere and I don't mind the driving. The only thing I have a real problem with is the save system. It's a game that tells a compelling story and does a good job of putting you in that time. I do wish there was more to do but it's a great package as is. I wouldn't buy it but I would certainly tell people to play it.

Now about the whole charging for online thing on used games. I understand the developers want every dime they can get for their product. That's natural. At the same time I have to disagree with that method. Whenever you but any tangible product that has multiple uses, you can sell it. Those companies never see any profit.

If I sell my PC to a friend, Dell doesn't get anything. If I sell my Sean John shirt, Puff Daddy isn't going to bust in door asking for 5 bucks. It's how the market has been forever. I can totally understand why a company would want more money but it's not something I like as a consumer at all. Great points you guys about the possible benefits that used games can offer as well. I really disagree with anyone that looks at the used game market as "evil". Everybody does not find it feasible to buy nothing but new games all the time and not everybody who can afford will feel so inclined. If you are on the fence about a title you want to own, will you pay $60?

Lastly, I want to mention one other point that I NEVER see any sites or magizines talk about when discussing this issue. The whole online codes thing really screws over those gamers who rent games. I think there area lot of people that subscribe to a service like Gamefly or Gamerang where they rent games. I am a huge renter, I maybe purchase 5 games a year and I rent everything else. Renters wont be able to access these features that require codes. It would seem a lot of gamers will be affected by this.

#97 Indifference

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 02:04 AM

Great show, Wombat seemed to be on the right side of every discussion topic. Keep it up.

And Cheapy why all the Rockstar hate?

Edited by Indifference, 03 September 2010 - 02:39 AM.


#98 Xeigrich

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 04:53 AM

I used to work in a Walmart electronics department. In an average day, we might sell 30+ games (that number varies wildly of course, based on new releases, sales, holidays, and so many other factors). Since Walmart doesn't sell anything used, all games are priced $20 to $60, with the exception of "budget" titles that pile up on a shelf to the side. The basic math there is $20 x 30 = $600, on an average day, easily exceeding that if customers are picking up newer titles or high profile titles like Halo or Call of Duty. That is the equivalent to selling 2 or 3 consoles minimum per day, when we typically sold only 2 or 3 home consoles per WEEK. For portables, I only recall a single customer purchasing a PSP, and it was a bundle; we'd probably sell a DS or a DSi every other day. I think part of this is that recently (I worked there last year), was due largely to the fact that most people who play games, already have the console(s) of their choice and are merely buying games for said console(s). This late in the generation, the hardware sale is heavily decreased, even with the revised consoles like PS3 Slim, the new 360, and the DSi on shelves, a lot of people are simply happy with their current hardware.

And as for accessories, you typically only need a few accessories unless you break/lose something or have an itch to try something new, but there are always new games coming out. How many controllers do you need for a PS3? Two on average, the console comes with one already. You might need 2 more if you have a 4 player game, but beyond that, you're not likely to buy another one. For portables, accessories are more of a seller... people lose DS styluii and come in looking for PSP screen protectors are the time, but the biggest sellers have always been the games. In fact, for the most part, the most expensive accessories -- special instrument controllers and wireless controllers -- usually top out in the $50 to $60 range, just like games, but how many Rock Band Drumsets are sold compared to copies of, say, Red Dead Redemption? (Note: these are just impromptu examples, I really have no idea how the sales stats compare).

#99 mrangrypants

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 05:19 AM

I can see big box stores selling download codes/cards for full games rather than disks. The down side to this would be mostly for the customers where you go to the store to get a game and you can't play it as soon as you get home you'll have to download it. That could be a reason that things won't go to a digital format anytime soon.
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#100 WonkyToad

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 10:34 AM

Wombat - I was taken back when I heard you mention the WTF podcast. I have been a long time listener to Marc Maron as well as CAG and glad to see there are others like me.
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#101 Broken Cage

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:20 AM

*BZZZZT* Wrong. CD's.


Sure, just link me to the Ipod that plays CDs...

And if you say people ripped CDs to make MP3s, you didn't read any of my post.

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#102 RichMeisterMan

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 01:31 PM

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA. Besides, isn't it easier to just buy the game at the store, pop the game in your console and play?


Your argument was that highspeed internet access is playing a part in why more games aren't on demand or why digital distribution isn't more popular. The graph I posted shows otherwise, and that America is by no means the standard for highspeed internet. Cheapy can vouch for the lightning like speed of Japan's internet access; he's talked before about his downloads taking minutes for huge ass demos and what not.

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.

And, no. I do not think going to the store and having to physically put a disc in and out of a console is easier than just sitting in your easy chair, powering up the console, and purchasing the game, and waiting for a download while I make a sandwich or run some errands. Then for the future all I have to do is take a seat, fire up my console with the controller and pick from a list, no disc swapping required! This of course is splitting hairs, as I have no problem with going to the store to buy games or swapping stuff out of the disc tray, but it's certainly not easier.

Keep in mind though, that current console digital distribution is absolute garbage and no one should buy an xbox game or PS title digitally if there is a physical avenue for which to buy.

Edited by RichMeisterMan, 03 September 2010 - 11:27 PM.


#103 Broken Cage

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 03:03 PM

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.


Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?

Money is what matters, and having games on shelves, in front of people's faces, is better than locking them away on a proprietary console. Not to mention the benefit it has to actually selling consoles. Nobody buys an Xbox 360 to have an Xbox 360, they buy it to play Halo. If you couldn't see Halo until AFTER you bought the Xbox (or suddenly became an avid gamer on CAG), you'd never even care to touch a 360.

Edit: If you'd like to test this, ask any casual you know what their favorite game from the OnLive catalogue is.

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#104 Ultramontane

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 04:53 PM

Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!!

Good discussion on the used game market. If you guys (or anyone in the community) could find a breakdown on revenue flow comparing purchasing a new game vs. a used game or even digital distribution, I think that would make for a great episode.

I've also asked myself where does my dollar finally split when buying a game online vs. large box store vs. a used game from wherever.. google please?

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#105 syd411

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 06:04 PM

Unless you're getting the Wave Radio system (the alarm clock) which is actually good, avoid the tiny Bose cube speakers. They really don't sound good in most homes. Bose requires the displays at BestBuy and the like to have their stuff separate from any other speakers, so you can't do a direct comparison. Plus they put it in that cagey thing with the rear speakers 18 inches from your head, so of course they sound good. I had these for a while and was unimpressed. Plus you can't use your own speaker wire, just the crappy Bose branded wire, and the subwoofer on the Bose Home Theater systems is the size of a mid-tower PC case.

If you're going the Sound Bar route, the Yamaha is about as good as you can get, but the ones around the $800-1000 mark are pretty good too (that's you, Ship).

I would just get some nice 5.1 speakers (Mirage, Harman Kardon, or Klipsch) and a decent 12" Sub. Most 5.1 speakers are pretty damned small now, and you just mount them on the wall above where little humans can knock them over. Check out Vanns.com (or Crutchfield.com) they have really good selection and seem to know what they're talking about, then of course, buy them at Amazon.

#106 Gamer SDP

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 07:21 PM

so there's such a thing as peach juice?

#107 kashwashwa

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 08:01 PM

Shipwreck - forget that Bose receiver... if you're looking for a slim receiver that is actually decent, I highly doubt there's anything you'll find that could beat the Marantz slim receiver's for the price.

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/B002DUCO54

As far as speakers, even Klipsch uses shitty components in their mid-range stuff.

I don't really follow speakers you can buy off the shelf, I just know that you can build speakers that sound like $1k for around $200 worth of parts. And that's why I could never justify or recommend buying a speaker off the shelf.


Also... ringtone...

Edited by kashwashwa, 03 September 2010 - 08:27 PM.

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#108 mrlogical

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 08:19 PM

Reading the Penny Arcade article you were discussing, (which it sounds like maybe not all of you had read? http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/) I don't see them having judged anyone for buying used games. Tycho simply agreed with THQ (as did the three of you, I think) that it's okay for developers to use things like single use DLC codes to encourage people to buy their games new. The comparison of used game buyers to pirates wasn't a moral comparison, it was about the technical definition of the relationship between a used game purchaser and the developer. Sure, someone who buys used games probably buys other games new, and maybe buys more games than they would if not for used games (note all of that also may apply to pirates); but because there is no transaction between them and the developer for that game, developers are free to design in favor of people who buy their games new.

I don't disagree with many of your points about the used games industry, but it sounded to me like you also agreed with everything Tycho said before you told him to go Fuck himself (which I understand was at least mostly a joke). As consumers, we are entitled to buy games however makes the most sense for us, and it's not our responsibility to make sure that developers make money for their games. At the same time, as long as we haven't given our money to a developer for a game, they don't have any obligation to care about whether we get what we want out of the game if we buy it used. There might be good reasons from a practical perspective for consumers to care about supporting developers or for developers to care about people who buy their games used, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for declining to care about the other.

Listening to your comments about the XBox Live price hike, I agree--it's annoying, and was poorly executed, but meh, it's $10, oh well. I was thinking, however, if there's not another reason behind this seemingly poorly-timed announcement: notice of an impending price increase means lots of us are going out and spending $30-50 on additional XBox Live subscriptions now when we otherwise might not spend that money for a year or so. In the short term, that money is all profit for Microsoft, particularly for those of us whose subscriptions weren't set to expire for months. Maybe as we're approaching the end of the year, MSFT was just looking for some extra cash in their financial reports? Maybe not, since they're probably on a fiscal year system instead of calendar year, and September sees the release of a game with Halo in its title, but you never know, I guess.

Edited by mrlogical, 03 September 2010 - 08:42 PM.
additional comment about xbox fee raise


#109 Broken Cage

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 08:54 PM

As consumers, we are entitled to buy games however makes the most sense for us, and it's not our responsibility to make sure that developers make money for their games. At the same time, as long as we haven't given our money to a developer for a game, they don't have any obligation to care about whether we get what we want out of the game if we buy it used. There might be good reasons from a practical perspective for consumers to care about supporting developers or for developers to care about people who buy their games used, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for declining to care about the other.


The problem I have is that it's a strong arm tactic. THQ didn't develop a new game mode or a new business model, they just said, "Fuck it, if you're not paying us, we're taking our ball and going home." So as a customer, who has only ever purchased ONE THQ game used, I feel unsatisfied.

I don't like the idea that a company will just come along and say, "Hey, we're not making as much money as we used to, so instead of changing anything, we're just going to figure out how to punish this other market that didn't pay us." That attitude can be more detrimental to this industry than used games if it isn't checked. The gaming industry already had a "to hell with the customer, profit, profit, profit" mentality once, and it crashed the entire thing.

However, I can't form a winning argument here. Nobody seems to feel like publishers are the least bit responsible for their business models. It's not THQ's fault if they're not making a ton of money, it's the used games market, it's piracy, it's people waiting for sales. It's always something else.

Maybe if THQ didn't publish Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?, Baby Pals, American Girl, Alex Rider, Bratz 4 Real, Bratz: Girlz Really Rock, Bratz: Super Babyz, and countless Nickelodeon/Pixar licensed games, they'd have some extra scratch to throw around.

I mean seriously, you can count THQ's notable IPs on one hand, but it's the used games industry's fault if they don't make enough money?

Finally, I bought Darksiders new, I was supposed to get Red Faction for free, but because the NEW game sat on the shelf too long, the code didn't work. So I bought Red Faction used.

(and again, I'm sorry for the rant.)

Edit: And can we all agree that the publisher probably doesn't care if you get what you want out of a game even if you do pay them?

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#110 Calinks

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 10:05 PM

Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!!

Good discussion on the used game market. If you guys (or anyone in the community) could find a breakdown on revenue flow comparing purchasing a new game vs. a used game or even digital distribution, I think that would make for a great episode.

I've also asked myself where does my dollar finally split when buying a game online vs. large box store vs. a used game from wherever.. google please?


Hey man, Love your avatar pic. That's from Carnivale right? Love that show!

#111 Z_meista

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:06 PM

Your argument was that highspeed internet access is playing a part in why more games aren't on demand or why digital distribution isn't more popular. The graph I posted shows otherwise, and that America is by no means the standard for highspeed internet. Cheapy can vouch for the lightning like speed of Japan's internet access; he's talked before about his downloads taking minutes for huge ass demos and what not.

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.

And, no. I do not think going to the store and having to physically put a disc in and out of a console is easier than just sitting in your easy chair, powering up the console, and purchasing the game, and waiting for a download while I make a sandwich or run some errands. Then for the future all I have to do is take a seat, fire up my console with the controller and pick from a list, no disc swapping required! This of course is splitting hairs, as I have no problem with going to the store to buy games or swapping stuff out of the disc tray, but it's certainly not easier.


High speed internet access is just one of the many factors why digital distribution is not popular yet. As some have stated earlier, it also comes down to personal preference. You also said that our high speed internet is not up to standard. This adds frustration to consumers. Let's say a new game is released. How long are you gong to wait for your next Halo, Mass Effect, or Call of Duty to download on your console? Wouldn't it be easier to buy the game on a disc and play it when you get home? You can also buy said games when you're running your errands (e.g. grocery).

Even the most avid of gamers start out as casual gamers. That's how Nintendo is making money.

#112 sinewav

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:20 PM

Thanks Cheapy for reading my CAGbag question on this podcast. Knowing that a mere mortal like me can contribute to the show in some way however small makes me glad to be a listener of your show.

And Shipwreck I'm very much liking your new Twitter war monger persona, look forward to the next battle of words.

#113 RichMeisterMan

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:31 PM

High speed internet access is just one of the many factors why digital distribution is not popular yet. As some have stated earlier, it also comes down to personal preference. You also said that our high speed internet is not up to standard. This adds frustration to consumers. Let's say a new game is released. How long are you gong to wait for your next Halo, Mass Effect, or Call of Duty to download on your console? Wouldn't it be easier to buy the game on a disc and play it when you get home? You can also buy said games when you're running your errands (e.g. grocery).

Even the most avid of gamers start out as casual gamers. That's how Nintendo is making money.

Services could offer a preinstall. Like on steam you can install a game days sometimes even a week or more before it's released so as soon as it's unlocked you can play!

Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?

Money is what matters, and having games on shelves, in front of people's faces, is better than locking them away on a proprietary console. Not to mention the benefit it has to actually selling consoles. Nobody buys an Xbox 360 to have an Xbox 360, they buy it to play Halo. If you couldn't see Halo until AFTER you bought the Xbox (or suddenly became an avid gamer on CAG), you'd never even care to touch a 360.

Edit: If you'd like to test this, ask any casual you know what their favorite game from the OnLive catalogue is.


Cool story, bro!

My point was that digital distribution's lack of popularity isn't due to a lack of high speed internet around the world. So I don't know why you are taking a sentence out of my entire post, blowing it up into an issue and stating the obvious.

#114 Broken Cage

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 11:57 PM

Cool story, bro!

My point was that digital distribution's lack of popularity isn't due to a lack of high speed internet around the world. So I don't know why you are taking a sentence out of my entire post, blowing it up into an issue and stating the obvious.



He opens with douchey internet memes! I can tell this is going to go downhill quickly.

Z_Meista said,

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA.


You responded,

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.


and I responded,

Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?


If your comment meant nothing, and shouldn't have been addressed, why did you even make it? Then again, judging from your "Cool Story, Bro!" you might just really enjoy saying a bunch of meaningless shit.

You commented about avid gamers and their internet connections in the context of your post responding to Z saying "not everyone has high speed internet", don't try to turn around and say "No no! I wasn't talking about that! I meant this!" just because it wasn't the entirety of your post.


Edit: And I'm having a total sense of deja vu. Have we had this argument before?

Edited by Broken Cage, 04 September 2010 - 12:11 AM.

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#115 RichMeisterMan

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 12:29 AM

It was a throw away sentence! You're letting too much ride on it. I'm sure even people that have just a wii and a copy carnival games probably have high speed internet.

My point remains the same. A lack of high speed internet is not the reason why publishers aren't more into digital distribution. I used the word avid, and I shouldn't have because really what I meant to say is that anyone that is hip enough to have any kind of current gen console has probably gone beyond booping and beeping their way to the internet.

As far as dejavu goes, I have talked about digital distribution in other cagcast show threads and usually it leads to disagreements and quarrels because digital distribution is a love or hate kind of thing; there is no in between. However, right now I am not talking about whether or not it's awesome or gay. Just that a lack of broadband is not a factor in it not being the cool kid at school.

Edit: Let's quit saying the word "avid". We used it too much; it's the kind of word we can just keep throwin' around.

#116 Broken Cage

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 12:35 AM

It was a throw away sentence! You're letting too much ride on it. I'm sure even people that have just a wii and a copy carnival games probably have high speed internet.

My point remains the same. A lack of high speed internet is not the reason why publishers aren't more into digital distribution. I used the word avid, and I shouldn't have because really what I meant to say is that anyone that is hip enough to have any kind of current gen console has probably gone beyond booping and beeping their way to the internet.

As far as dejavu goes, I have talked about digital distribution in other cagcast show threads and usually it leads to disagreements and quarrels because digital distribution is a love or hate kind of thing; there is no in between. However, right now I am not talking about whether or not it's awesome or gay. Just that a lack of broadband is not a factor in it not being the cool kid at school.


Fair enough.

I'll save the rest for when we are arguing the merits of digital distribution.

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#117 quasicat

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 01:34 AM

Although I visit this site often, I rarely leave any comments; I do want to take this time to say that I really enjoy having Shipwreck on the show. The chemistry between Cheapy and Wombat has always been great, but since Ship has been on the show, I think you guys have really taken off with the quality of the discussions and topics.

I think everyone has their specific spots where they look at game reviews, CAG has recently become a big one for me that I check out on the main page.

Keep it up guys.

#118 Zaku77

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 03:18 AM

Never posted in here before. I love the show and look forward to listening to it in my boring warehouse full of hair care products! As far as your talk about the Medal Of Honor controversy overy playing as the towel heads. I see why people have an issue with it, and I think the difference comes down to time. Nazis were years and years ago. Most WW 2 vets aren't even alive anymore. The Taliban thing is not only recent but ongoing. It's a sore subject that hasn't even had time to rest yet as it is still going on. I think that it's in bad taste for right now, but will be acceptable in the future just like nazis and veotcong have become.

#119 Microshock

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 06:34 AM

Some issues here, first on GTA4. CheapyD, don't you know what cheats are fucking for? They're to help you have more fun. You could've used them 2 years ago to let you finish the game already.

The whole fun of GTA4 is fighting cops and fleeing from cops in an amazingly built city. Not that hard to get it.

Also, Shipwreck is so fucking blatant pro-Microsoft all the time it's just getting annoying. So you're saying Sony is at fault for Xbox Live being 60?
Xbox Live was a rip-off at 50 bucks. You got shitty voice chat, P2P MP, invites, in-game chat and like 3 websites for 50 a year.
Now it's even more of a rip-off and all you do is defend it. They touted Netflix as a feature! OH BOY, I GET TO PAY TO PAY TO WATCH NETFLIX!

I think little Shippy thinks hes funny for trying to be controversial like Wombat.

Oh and by the way, stop self-censoring yourself by saying the "N word" instead of the real one. It's your podcast and free speech should not be affected by some panzys.

In reference to this digital vs retail fight going on in this thread, retail always wins. Retail always provides better prices, better value, and full control over your product.
Plus, no one wants to get a freaking download code as a gift.

Edited by Microshock, 04 September 2010 - 07:09 AM.

Transformers: Dark of the Moon - July 1, 2011 (was AWESOME)
STEAM- Microshocky Origin/Battlelog Microshock

#120 Narynan

Narynan

    CAGiversary!

  • CAGiversary!

Posted 04 September 2010 - 10:13 AM

Bose is a bit of a joke. So SOOOO much better stuff in the same price range. If you hook up a link as to WHAT you were looking at... I can get you an alternate offer.

Also realize that the 4000 model is a virtual 4 speaker system. 4100 has the subwoofer included. And 5/100 has the center speaker involved.
Shut your voice tube taco human!