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So Is Anything Going Right?


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#1 nasum

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:02 PM

Perhaps by the standards of the USA from 1990-2000 we may be in the crapper, but compared to the rest of the world I think we're still doing alright. We don't have wide spread famine, you don't see people falling over dead in the street due to some mystery illness, we don't have a foreign army in our land blowing stuff up, there's still enough money floating around that you don't need to barter a chicken for a lap dance, the NHL season is starting, we don't have bread lines, idle entertainment is still being made in vast quantaties, etc...

When it really boils down to it, there isn't all that much to complain about short of minor policy issues here and there.
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#2 dohdough

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:15 PM

1 out of 4 black men having been incarcerated, 50% of the population doesn't believe in evolution, and minimum wage being below the poverty line are more than petty policy issues imo.

#3 nasum

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:00 PM

Helps to not be a gangbanger or various other type of hoodlum. 1 in 80 million is president of the fucking country...

Think of how stupid the average person is, and then remember that half of them are worse than that - George Carlin (also, stupidity isn't really a policy issue unles syou're talking about public education, but public education does teach evolution and the dumbies are just brainwashed by their church)

The poverty line thing is a bit sketchy as it relates to an income for a family with x amount of children. If you're in a family of four with only one income of $15,080 ($7.25 x 2,080) then you qualify for aid in numerous ways and won't be left on the street to die.
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#4 dohdough

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:20 PM

Helps to not be a gangbanger or various other type of hoodlum. 1 in 80 million is president of the fucking country...

So your argument is that 1 in 4 black men are criminals and that anyone of them could be President if they "acted right/white?" Riddle me this: why is it that black people are stopped 7 times the frequency of white people, yet when stopped, white people are 4 times as likely to have drug paraphernalia? Btw, doing or posessing drugs does not make you a gangbanger or hoodlum. Your statement says a lot about your racist views and ignorance.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and then remember that half of them are worse than that - George Carlin (also, stupidity isn't really a policy issue unles syou're talking about public education, but public education does teach evolution and the dumbies are just brainwashed by their church)

So why are people able to be brainwashed despite being taught proper science? Why are most people dummies? Aren't environmental variables important? Wages, nutrition, quality of schools?

The poverty line thing is a bit sketchy as it relates to an income for a family with x amount of children. If you're in a family of four with only one income of $15,080 ($7.25 x 2,080) then you qualify for aid in numerous ways and won't be left on the street to die.

And if you're a single person, you're screwed. Don't forget to factor in federal taxes, FICA, insurance, and other good stuff that would probably reduce $15k to $11k net.

As far as being left in the street to die? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that they'll live in a nice apt, have nice parks, a good library, good schools, and a myriad of other social services that will allieve their lot in any meaningful way for upward socio-economic mobility.

#5 nasum

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:24 PM

Ahh yes, my racist views.
Have you ever watched Gangland on A&E (or maybe it's History Channel)? Riddle me this, is it possible that these thugs and their habitual offenses skew the 1/4 rate? Maybe if it weren't for a culture of perpetual violence 1/4 would be 1/10?

TABLE 1 – Racial and Ethnic Rates of Incarceration
RACIAL/ETHNIC GROUP RATE PER 100,000
White 412
Black 2,290
Hispanic 742

from:
http://sentencingpro...ndethnicity.pdf

Data from July 2007, maybe it has changed but we're most definitely not looking at 1/4 here. More like 1/50.

So, to your point, am I suggesting that all blacks should be Uncle Toms to avoid being incracerated? Well, if you consider not being engaged in criminal enterprise (gangs, pimpin, robbery, etc...) being a Tom, then yeah. It's interesting that you call me the racist yet state that "acting white" would remove blacks from this epidemic of incarceration...


Why are people still able to be brainwashed? Mostly because free thinking is no longer valued in our society. New product innovation has gone from something neat like, I don't know, a fucking airplane, to a new flavor from Frito Lay. Misguided "tolerance" also hampers our federal education efforts because we have to allow the snake handlers and branch davidians the same respect as "real" churches. If someone with any type of authority would have the balls to call out the morons then maybe the confused masses would have reason to not latch onto these lunatics. But hey, an invisible man and his miracle birth child who later became a zombie wish us to have happy lives so evolution never happened.


Maybe your take home is reduced to 11K, but come April 15th you'll get most of that back due to income credits. A reasonable person would evaluate their tax situation and claim the proper amount of deductions to keep as much of their $15k as possible without having to pay-in come tax day. An even more reasonable person would elect to apply for grants and student loans to increase the chance of getting a job that pays more than minimum wage.
A nice apt on min wage? Definitely not, out of the price range. But there's section 8 vouchers available. Unfortunately you end up living in squalor because the other residents don't give a shit and don't take care of anything. There won't be nice parks because the pushers use them for their trade, mainly because they realize that the income isn't reportable so they can get rich off of the drug trade while still earning welfare benefits. Why bother reading anything from a good library if you're going to get shot in the parking lot? Where are there any good schools? We're all a bunch of dumb creationists remember?
Upward socio-economic mobility? That's a load of BS sir. America is the invisible caste system. If you're born marginalized, might as well get used to it because you're political currency and nothing else.
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#6 jputahraptor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:31 PM

1 out of 4 black men having been incarcerated, 50% of the population doesn't believe in evolution, and minimum wage being below the poverty line are more than petty policy issues imo.


More than half of all black children grow up in a single parent home, usually with no father figure, could that have anything to do with it? No role model perhaps.
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#7 Sporadic

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:38 PM

Ignoring the race angle,

Posted Image

Nearly one million of those incarcerated in state and federal prisons, as well as local jails, are serving time for committing non-violent crimes.


The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world at 754 persons in prison or jail per 100,000 (as of 2008).


http://en.wikipedia....arceration_rate

That alone is a pretty big goddamn problem.

#8 nasum

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:00 PM

do gitmo detainees count as part of the nearly 1 million jump during the Bush years?

I wonder how Japan manages to have only 63/100000? Maybe a culture that values respect and common decency (and fingering girls on trains) is better than one that glorifies violence?
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#9 IRHari

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:30 PM

The trend is much steeper from 1980-2000.

And if gitmo detainees counted as part of the half million jump during the Bush years there would be WAY more outrage then there is, considering they'd be American citizens.
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#10 IRHari

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:33 PM

1 in 80 million is president of the Fucking country...


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in public housing in D.C. does not solve the problems of African American culture across the board. -Michael Eric Dyson
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#11 Sporadic

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:49 PM

do gitmo detainees count as part of the nearly 1 million jump during the Bush years?


Gitmo has only housed 759 detainess. So I'm going to guess no.

#12 Knoell

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:45 PM



And if you're a single person, you're screwed. Don't forget to factor in federal taxes, FICA, insurance, and other good stuff that would probably reduce $15k to $11k net.


curious how you came to this conclusion. Care to do the math for us?

#13 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:06 AM

curious how you came to this conclusion. Care to do the math for us?

Ok smart guy, I've worked for less than that with no benefits. Taxes and standard withholding taken out were 25% of my check, hell, it just about still is. If you count a GOOD health insurance plan that won't bankrupt you if you get a serious illness, that's AT LEAST $25 per week which equals $1300 per year. Let's round off minimum wage to $16k a year divided by 4 and you get $12k. Subtract $1300 and you get $10.7k. Add in an $800 refund, and you get $11.5k.

#14 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:23 AM

Ahh yes, my racist views.
Have you ever watched Gangland on A&E (or maybe it's History Channel)? Riddle me this, is it possible that these thugs and their habitual offenses skew the 1/4 rate? Maybe if it weren't for a culture of perpetual violence 1/4 would be 1/10?

TABLE 1 – Racial and Ethnic Rates of Incarceration
RACIAL/ETHNIC GROUP RATE PER 100,000
White 412
Black 2,290
Hispanic 742

from:
http://sentencingpro...ndethnicity.pdf

Data from July 2007, maybe it has changed but we're most definitely not looking at 1/4 here. More like 1/50.

Right, because they're not targeted more by the authorities despite whites being 4 times as likely to have drug parapheralia while also enjoy harsher punishments and longer sentences.

So, to your point, am I suggesting that all blacks should be Uncle Toms to avoid being incracerated? Well, if you consider not being engaged in criminal enterprise (gangs, pimpin, robbery, etc...) being a Tom, then yeah. It's interesting that you call me the racist yet state that "acting white" would remove blacks from this epidemic of incarceration...

LOLZWUT? You're the one that made the comparison of a half black/half white person with financially stable white grandparents as not being a signifigant variable for a person of color to ascend to the presidency. I also didn't go through the black stereotype handbook and listed a good number of them as being a reason as to why black people tend to be impoverished. So yes, you're racist. You might not wear a hood or call anyone a n****r to their face, but your thoughts and reasoning are still the same.

Why are people still able to be brainwashed? Mostly because free thinking is no longer valued in our society. New product innovation has gone from something neat like, I don't know, a fucking airplane, to a new flavor from Frito Lay. Misguided "tolerance" also hampers our federal education efforts because we have to allow the snake handlers and branch davidians the same respect as "real" churches. If someone with any type of authority would have the balls to call out the morons then maybe the confused masses would have reason to not latch onto these lunatics. But hey, an invisible man and his miracle birth child who later became a zombie wish us to have happy lives so evolution never happened.

This is all well and good and I agree for the most part, but you're missing the why things are the way they are.


Maybe your take home is reduced to 11K, but come April 15th you'll get most of that back due to income credits. A reasonable person would evaluate their tax situation and claim the proper amount of deductions to keep as much of their $15k as possible without having to pay-in come tax day. An even more reasonable person would elect to apply for grants and student loans to increase the chance of getting a job that pays more than minimum wage.

You admit that the state of education is atrocious in this country, so how do you reconcile that with someone knowing which credits they qualify for. There's a reason why HR Block is a successful company. Most people do not know how to do their personal income taxes. And now you say they should know? This makes no sense.

A nice apt on min wage? Definitely not, out of the price range. But there's section 8 vouchers available. Unfortunately you end up living in squalor because the other residents don't give a shit and don't take care of anything. There won't be nice parks because the pushers use them for their trade, mainly because they realize that the income isn't reportable so they can get rich off of the drug trade while still earning welfare benefits. Why bother reading anything from a good library if you're going to get shot in the parking lot? Where are there any good schools? We're all a bunch of dumb creationists remember?

Do you know you're going in circles here? First off, there's a LONG waiting list for section 8. Property taxes fund schools, parks, and libraries. And you can shunt $1 billion dollars into a school, but if you don't address the underlying problems of having a poor community, it's a waste of money.

Upward socio-economic mobility? That's a load of BS sir. America is the invisible caste system. If you're born marginalized, might as well get used to it because you're political currency and nothing else.

Are you arguing with yourself? Because you say the exact opposite in this.very.post.

#15 Feeding the Abscess

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:29 AM

Eliminate the War on Drugs. There's $20 billion saved. Cut foreign policy spending by $230 billion. Let's call it a $250 billion reduction in federal war spending, foreign and domestic. That puts federal spending at $3.58 trillion. Cap yearly spending increases from this point to a 2% level; decreases in spending in defense, agriculture, and education, etc would help offset increases in medicare and social security spending.

10 years of spending in this pattern would produce a deficit of $4.36 trillion in the fiscal year 2021.

Tax revenues are projected to come in at $2.57 trillion in FY 2011. Let's assume those will grow at half the annual projected rate of 7% over the next 10 years. That leaves us with $3.63 trillion of revenue in FY 2021. 7% growth would bring us to $5.06 trillion in revenue.

Problem solved (kind of), without any draconian, government halting cuts.

#16 work88

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:42 AM

@dohdough

I think the OP was simply stating that despite America's problems a lot of other places have it far worse.

You make some strong accusations, be careful with your words, no one likes to be labeled by another.

#17 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:55 AM

More than half of all black children grow up in a single parent home, usually with no father figure, could that have anything to do with it? No role model perhaps.

So the reason why more than half of all black children grow up in a single parent home is because there isn't a role model and this is why black people are disproportionately targeted for law enforcement or somehow, more prone to commit "crimes" than white people? This is some piss poor reasoning. Which also begs the question: why are there a lack of role models.

#18 Clak

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:59 AM

It's their fault that they're are the victims of racial profiling. If they don't want to be targeted they should stop being black, right?
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#19 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:01 AM

@dohdough

I think the OP was simply stating that despite America's problems a lot of other places have it far worse.

You make some strong accusations, be careful with your words, no one likes to be labeled by another.

The OP made a simplistic point and so did I. He was the one that turned it into black people are gangbangers and everyone that was imprisoned derserved to be. So yeah, if someone is going to use racist stereotypes to defend their views, that person is racist. Racism is not just interpersonal interaction. You don't have to wear a white hood and burn crosses to be racist.

#20 jputahraptor

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:07 AM

So the reason why more than half of all black children grow up in a single parent home is because there isn't a role model and this is why black people are disproportionately targeted for law enforcement or somehow, more prone to commit "crimes" than white people? This is some piss poor reasoning. Which also begs the question: why are there a lack of role models.


Uh you just ran with my statement in the most random direction, a large amount of these kids are growing in a poorer enviorment because they don't have a father and the mother probably works more than one job to support the kids and has less time to spend with them. Think about what purpose a father serves, to teach, to support, and to nurture, now take that away, where does that child get that from, his friends, the media. I'm not saying all kids without fathers wind up in jails but if you have that advantage, I think having that father might help a kid who might fall in with the wrong crowd before they do something to wind up in jail. And this all begs the question, why do so many black men not stick around to raise their children?

As for your question, anybody can be a role model, a teacher, somebody famous, or a friend, but not all role models put out positive messages and therefore I think if anyone, a father will have the best interests of their children in mind.
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#21 jputahraptor

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:13 AM

It's their fault that they're are the victims of racial profiling. If they don't want to be targeted they should stop being black, right?


I'm not naive to think that cops don't profile blacks, they also profile middle eastern people these days to and I don't see the prisons overrun with them. Also this begs the question, that are black men intentionally being found guilty of whatever crime they are accused of in spite of no evidence or is the evidence faked somehow? Is the problem with our courts because it doesn't go from arrest to jail, we do have due process still right?
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#22 UncleBob

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:15 AM

[...] that anyone of them could be President if they "acted right/white?"


Wow. If Rush or Beck had gotten on the mic and said "Obama was only elected because he knew how to act white.", I can only imagine the outcry from such a comment.

And if you're a single person, you're screwed. Don't forget to factor in federal taxes, FICA, insurance, and other good stuff that would probably reduce $15k to $11k net.


Only $11,000! There are entire villages full of people with a total net value of less than that.

In comparison to the rest of the world, we're doing pretty good.
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#23 Msut77

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:29 AM

Things could be worse and will be if Republicans get back into power.

#24 Knoell

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:08 AM

Ok smart guy, I've worked for less than that with no benefits. Taxes and standard withholding taken out were 25% of my check, hell, it just about still is. If you count a GOOD health insurance plan that won't bankrupt you if you get a serious illness, that's AT LEAST $25 per week which equals $1300 per year. Let's round off minimum wage to $16k a year divided by 4 and you get $12k. Subtract $1300 and you get $10.7k. Add in an $800 refund, and you get $11.5k.


I have to go to work, ill address how wrong you are when I get home.

Here is a starter though.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tax_bracket

Your tax bracket if you make $15,000 is not 25%. What state are you talking about? And you are including medicare and social security withholding?

#25 Sporadic

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:12 AM

Wow. If Rush or Beck had gotten on the mic and said "Obama was only elected because he knew how to act white.", I can only imagine the outcry from such a comment.


Didn't that already happen when somebody had something like that in their book a few months ago?

Only $11,000! There are entire villages full of people with a total net value of less than that.

In comparison to the rest of the world, we're doing pretty good.


Except it doesn't go near as far here and telling them go somewhere were it does isn't plausible.

Things could be worse and will be if Republicans get back into power.


That much I agree with. With the militant stance they have started to take, I imagine they will try to roll back as much stuff as possible in the name of "taking America back"

#26 tivo

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:28 AM

a common misconception is how poor "poor people" really are:

The 2000 Census indicates that 73% of U.S. poor own automobiles, 76% have air conditioning, 97% own refrigerators, 62% have cable or satellite TV, and 73% have microwaves. There are many homeless and malnourished individuals in the United States, but the poverty thresholds are high enough to include many individuals who live with some modern comforts.
Instead of being homeless, almost half (46%) own their own homes with most of the rest renting their homes. On average a poor person in this country lives in a home with 1,228 square feet (114.1 m2) which they often own, and as noted the home is likely air conditioned, with a refrigerator, cable or satellite TV, a microwave not to mention many other comforts. Cox and Alm conclude that if the American poor formed a country of their own, they would be as well-off or even slightly better-off than the typical family in most European countries.


bolded note:
Spoiler

avg. american poor has 25% more living space than the average european.


plus

40% of Swedish households earn less than $25,000 a year (non-PPP-adjusted), the income of only 25% of all American households.

and I'm sure this stat is similar elsewhere in europe.

So bottom line, the american poor are rich by European standards.

#27 gargus

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:38 AM

Perhaps by the standards of the USA from 1990-2000 we may be in the crapper, but compared to the rest of the world I think we're still doing alright. We don't have wide spread famine, you don't see people falling over dead in the street due to some mystery illness, we don't have a foreign army in our land blowing stuff up, there's still enough money floating around that you don't need to barter a chicken for a lap dance, the NHL season is starting, we don't have bread lines, idle entertainment is still being made in vast quantaties, etc...

When it really boils down to it, there isn't all that much to complain about short of minor policy issues here and there.


Well its not widespread where it counts but its still there in a lot of places. County not to far from me has a lot of families trading stuff they grow because they cant afford to buy a lot of things at the grocery. Like 3 nights a week people go to this church parking lot to trade, no money or anything just trade this for that and donated food by other people is passed out there. Its not a small county either or one filled with trailer parks, its actually a nice place to live just a lot of people in it cant get by.

I dont know of any place that has people falling over dead mysteriously at any kind of regular rate.

We dont have a foriegn army blowing up our land because of our military strength, its the only thing that makes us relevant to the rest of the world. If we didnt have it we wouldnt be noticed by anyone else really. We dont export anything, all we do is borrow money from other countries and we cant even take care of ourselves but we have a huge military budget.

We have plenty of breadlines and welfare and unemployment offices are the exact same thing and they are packed to the gills with people.

And if idle entertainment like shitty big budget movies, bad reality tv, right wing talk radio, pop music, silly bands, and all that other useless crap is the good thing then Id hate to see what the bad is. I would trade those for better ecnomics and free healthcare in a heartbeat and never look back.

The reason why you dont hear about how shitty things are is because no one can tell that story. Everyone wants everyone to think everything is just fine and dandy, things are getting better and rainbows will come out of all our asses (but still remind us of the truth enough to keep us showing up to our shitty jobs). Because you know what would happen if the news actually told the truth? People would get scared and scared people do really, really, really stupid things. When they get scared they panic and then you have real problems on your hands. And the more people grouped together that are scared and paniced the worse it gets. So of course you dont hear about all this shit because if we did then it would get even worse because the american populace is stupid. People as individuals are smart, but in large groups they are dumb and dangerous.

Only $11,000! There are entire villages full of people with a total net value of less than that.

In comparison to the rest of the world, we're doing pretty good.


Thats very true but what will 11,000 a year get you in america? Not a whole hell of a lot. Especially if you have a child.

Our dollars dont go very far. Thats like saying everyone in america is rich compared to people in mexico. Well yeah we make more than a lot of them but our money doesnt go as far. Hell maybe everyone in america should go to mexico and let all the mexicans come here and we will all be happy. Least our money would be worth something there.

Edited by gargus, 13 October 2010 - 04:48 AM.


#28 IRHari

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:10 AM

As for your question, anybody can be a role model, a teacher, somebody famous, or a friend, but not all role models put out positive messages and therefore I think if anyone, a father will have the best interests of their children in mind.


What's your opinion on families with 2 moms? Is a father always necessary?
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#29 IRHari

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:12 AM

they also profile middle eastern people these days to and I don't see the prisons overrun with them.


middle eastern people aren't being profiled for the same thing...
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#30 UncleBob

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:36 PM

Didn't that already happen when somebody had something like that in their book a few months ago?


I believe there was someone who worked on Obama's campaign that said something about him knowing when to act black and when to act white or such... but I may be misremembering that.

Except it doesn't go near as far here and telling them go somewhere were it does isn't plausible.

How far does a yearly wage of $2,400 get you in Sudan though?
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