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#31 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:44 PM

I have to go to work, ill address how wrong you are when I get home.

Here is a starter though.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tax_bracket

Your tax bracket if you make $15,000 is not 25%. What state are you talking about? And you are including medicare and social security withholding?

I stated that I did in the EXACT SAME POST YOU QUOTED. <INSERT FACEPALM>

#32 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:46 PM

a common misconception is how poor "poor people" really are:



bolded note:

Spoiler

avg. american poor has 25% more living space than the average european.


plus

and I'm sure this stat is similar elsewhere in europe.

So bottom line, the american poor are rich by European standards.

How about you find the population density and throw that into the equation as well. Or maybe you can find a similarly populated place in the US and make a more objective comparison. Somehow, I don't think you will.

#33 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:48 PM

What's your opinion on families with 2 moms? Is a father always necessary?

2 fathers must mean OVER 9000!!!!! ATTACK POINTS FOR CRITICAL HIT!!!!!

#34 nasum

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:09 PM


One black man
in public housing in D.C. does not solve the problems of African American culture across the board. -Michael Eric Dyson


That is awesome.
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#35 nasum

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:43 PM

dohdough, call me racist all you want, it's easier to put that on my shoulders than to accept that a portion of black culture celebrates violence and stupidity and causes a large portion of the problems that are lumped on black culture as a whole. Call it the rotten apple principle.

There are probably more stupid white people than black people. It's just that stupid white people tend to live in the middle of nowhere where there's one sherrif that works a five hour shift and maybe pulls over one drunk guy on an ATV every month and has to arrest old man smithson once a year for slapping up his wife. Maybe he has to do something about a methlab. Essentially what I'm getting at here is that "white crime" is easier to get away with because there's less of it going on in the concentrated areas of population.

I'm trying to figure out where I said that all blacks are criminals. When you said that 1/4 are in jail, I just mentioned that of that 25% of the total population, most are probably in jail for a reason. Remove skin color from the equation and I'd say the same thing. If, according to that chart on the last page, roughly 2.5 million people are in jail and they had a trial, then most likely 90% of them are there for a reason. The other 10% either got railroaded, false evidence, shitty attorney, probably got away with something else and deserve to be there anyway.

Am I arguing with myself in saying that it's nigh impossible to get ahead? Nope, that's the way it's been for about 50 years now and there's no use arguing with it. Just accept the fact that you're more or less born with your lot in life.
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#36 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:58 PM

dohdough, call me racist all you want, it's easier to put that on my shoulders than to accept that a portion of black culture celebrates violence and stupidity and causes a large portion of the problems that are lumped on black culture as a whole. Call it the rotten apple principle.

So.why.is.that? Why do they "celebrate violence" and why do they make all black people look bad.

Why is it that we need to accept that some black people are just bad and all black people should be judged under white male cultural standards?

There are probably more stupid white people than black people. It's just that stupid white people tend to live in the middle of nowhere where there's one sherrif that works a five hour shift and maybe pulls over one drunk guy on an ATV every month and has to arrest old man smithson once a year for slapping up his wife. Maybe he has to do something about a methlab. Essentially what I'm getting at here is that "white crime" is easier to get away with because there's less of it going on in the concentrated areas of population.

Well if we all know where "white" crime is happening, why do we focus on "black" crime. And if there is more crime perpetrated by white people, why do black people disproportionately populate the prison system.

I'm trying to figure out where I said that all blacks are criminals. When you said that 1/4 are in jail, I just mentioned that of that 25% of the total population, most are probably in jail for a reason. Remove skin color from the equation and I'd say the same thing. If, according to that chart on the last page, roughly 2.5 million people are in jail and they had a trial, then most likely 90% of them are there for a reason. The other 10% either got railroaded, false evidence, shitty attorney, probably got away with something else and deserve to be there anyway.

I actually said 1 in 4 have been incarcerated. Even IF 100% of the people currently incarcerated commited the crimes they were inprisoned for, why do black people have longer sentences and harsher punishments compared to white people that commit the same crimes.

Am I arguing with myself in saying that it's nigh impossible to get ahead? Nope, that's the way it's been for about 50 years now and there's no use arguing with it. Just accept the fact that you're more or less born with your lot in life.

So we(people of color) should just accept that the system is racist and deal with it? HA!

#37 Sporadic

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:13 PM

Cox and Alm conclude that if the American poor formed a country of their own, they would be as well-off or even slightly better-off than the typical family in most European countries.


Hold on, are they trying to say that the typical family in most European countries don't have an air conditioner, a refrigerator, TV, or a microwave?

How far does a yearly wage of $2,400 get you in Sudan though?


Despite a nearly 10% growth rate in its economy annually, and a 291% growth in its oil revenues over the past six years, average annual income per person is only $2,400 (the United States average income per capita is $46,000). Because wealth is concentrated in very few hands in Sudan, the actual income for many is much, much lower: less than $1/day.


Who knows.

#38 nasum

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:10 PM

dohdough:
Why does there need to be a different cultural standard for anyone? We're Americans, no matter what skin tone we have, no matter what religion we are, no matter what are sexual desires are (well except for beastiality and pedophelia) and no matter what our political natures are. There is an implemented set of rules/laws by which OUR society operates. Toe the line and you'll do fine (speaking in terms of incarceration here), decide to go against the rules/laws and you'll deal with BS your whole life.

Why does a portion of black culture embrace and celebrate violence? Hell if I know. It's pretty ridiculous and obviously rather self defeating in the long run. Why do rural white kids get hooked on meth? Same answer, I have no clue why someone would willingly engage in stupid behavior.

As far as a small portion of the population making the whole population look bad. Let me put it this way, do you think Redneck Nascar fans are idiots? If most redneck Nascar fans are southern white guys, does that Nascar population make most of the southern white guy population look bad? Yeah, it kinda does doesn't it? Stereotypes exist, there's simply no getting around that fact.

Pretty simple to address the when/where of crime. More people live in densely populated areas, ergo the police presence is higher because of the demand of a certain cop/citizen ration. If you have more cops around, they're more likely to find people doing stupid stuff and arrest them.

Why do black people have longer sentences? Well I suppose that's because all judges are racist? Or is it maybe because of repeat offenses, extenuating circumstances? It's easy to play the race card, but it also dodges several other possibilities.

Accept that the system is racist? It seems as though you (personally) already have. Instead of pointing fingers how about we (people of the world) just take responsibility for our actions, avoid circumstances where we know we can get in trouble (we're all guilty of this one to one extent or another) to the best of our abilities, conciously avoid getting into circumstances where we know crime beyond shoplifting or the occasional bar fight might happen (i.e. "hey, we're gonna shoot this dude, wanna hop along?" Nah, I've got a headache today, but thanks anyway!) and if you do get caught doing something stupid, realize that it's because you did something stupid, not because you belong to category X. Now if you come back and say that it's difficult to avoid trouble within the culture, then you've identified the problem. Why is it difficult to avoid trouble? Seems pretty straightforward to me.
If one decides to "accept" the notion that they're a second class citizen, it's pretty hard to shake that notion.
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#39 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:42 PM

dohdough:
Why does there need to be a different cultural standard for anyone? We're Americans, no matter what skin tone we have, no matter what religion we are, no matter what are sexual desires are (well except for beastiality and pedophelia) and no matter what our political natures are. There is an implemented set of rules/laws by which OUR society operates. Toe the line and you'll do fine (speaking in terms of incarceration here), decide to go against the rules/laws and you'll deal with BS your whole life.

Are all people treated equally under the law?

Why does a portion of black culture embrace and celebrate violence? Hell if I know. It's pretty ridiculous and obviously rather self defeating in the long run. Why do rural white kids get hooked on meth? Same answer, I have no clue why someone would willingly engage in stupid behavior.

So in other words, you have no idea why, yet you have strong ignorant opinions about it while boasting your logical conclusions.

As far as a small portion of the population making the whole population look bad. Let me put it this way, do you think Redneck Nascar fans are idiots? If most redneck Nascar fans are southern white guys, does that Nascar population make most of the southern white guy population look bad? Yeah, it kinda does doesn't it? Stereotypes exist, there's simply no getting around that fact.

It makes a difference when you're comparing dumb hicks to gangbanging pimps. Way to false equivalence.

Pretty simple to address the when/where of crime. More people live in densely populated areas, ergo the police presence is higher because of the demand of a certain cop/citizen ration. If you have more cops around, they're more likely to find people doing stupid stuff and arrest them.

Lemme get this straight: you're saying that "white" crime happens in less populated areas so they don't get caught or punished as much. Yet, in densely populated areas, black people are just happen to commit more "crimes" than white people so they're stopped and punished more.

You know, there's actually several studies on racial profiling stating that black people are stopped more and white people tend to be the ones caught with more drugs when stopped. Once again, this is the exact opposite of fairness under the law.

Why do black people have longer sentences? Well I suppose that's because all judges are racist? Or is it maybe because of repeat offenses, extenuating circumstances? It's easy to play the race card, but it also dodges several other possibilities.

Dodges what? I said they have harsher punishments and longer sentences for the same crimes. The only "extenuating circumstance" is because they're black. This isn't some conjecture. No one "plays the race card." They fucking live it.

Accept that the system is racist? It seems as though you (personally) already have. Instead of pointing fingers how about we (people of the world) just take responsibility for our actions, avoid circumstances where we know we can get in trouble (we're all guilty of this one to one extent or another) to the best of our abilities, conciously avoid getting into circumstances where we know crime beyond shoplifting or the occasional bar fight might happen (i.e. "hey, we're gonna shoot this dude, wanna hop along?" Nah, I've got a headache today, but thanks anyway!) and if you do get caught doing something stupid, realize that it's because you did something stupid, not because you belong to category X. Now if you come back and say that it's difficult to avoid trouble within the culture, then you've identified the problem. Why is it difficult to avoid trouble? Seems pretty straightforward to me.
If one decides to "accept" the notion that they're a second class citizen, it's pretty hard to shake that notion.

In other words: poor black people are poor and black because they're poor and black; the only way out of it is if they stop thinking they're poor and black. Add a sprinkling of hard work and bootstraps and viola!!! They're not going to be treated poor and black!!! HOLY SHIT!! YOU JUST SOLVED RACISM!!!ONEONE1111!!!

#40 nasum

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:15 PM

Treated equally under the law? You're operating under the premise that they aren't, with the statement that blacks are incarcerated more than whites. So, there are two ways to look at that, blacks get caught in the act more often than whites, or the system is setup against them. One of those options takes into account personal accountability while the other blames outside sources and lacks any and all personal accountability.

I have strong opinions, ignorant or otherwise, regarding people acting like idiots and blaming others for their circumstances. I don't understand why people willingly and willfully engage in stupidity. If you join the Bloods or the Crips or whatever and then get caught selling drugs, murdering rival gang members and otherwise acting like your life is a real version of GTAIV, don't sit there and blame racist cops and judges for your fucked up life. Blame yourself for going down that road. If you're living in the lala land of the blissful suburbs and you kill a kid in the neighborhood because you're driving home drunk from the bar, don't blame the kid for running after their football and don't blame the bar for serving you. Blame your dumbass self for getting too fucked up to drive, and then driving. What is so wrong with accepting the consequences of one's actions?

False equivocation - I was attempting to demonstrate how the stereotype application can go multiple ways. I wasn't trying to group the two together.

I'm saying that rural "white crime" gets caught less, strictly due to the fact that there are less people around to do the catching. I'm not saying that they do more or less criminal activity, I'm simply saying that there's less law enforcement around.

Opposite of fairness under the law and extenuating circumstances - Is there a warrant out for the arrest of the person that gets treated differently for the same crime? Weapon possession? Prior convictions/repeat offender? In a stolen vehicle? Intoxicated at the time of apprehension? Resisting arrest?
That's 6 possible reasons for different treatment, not a single one involving race. Again, it's too easy to call out racism while ignoring numerous other possibilities.

Your last bit, nice. How about a young black kid realizes that their education sucks, decides to do something about it, apply for grants, get student aid, educate themselves in other ways such that they don't have to depend on the school, do the work necessary to get themselves in a better situation, get a degree in education and then go back to where their school was crappy because no one cared and, well I don't know, maybe try and make a difference.
Nah, easier to "blame the man" and do Fuck all with your life isn't it?

Granted these are polar opposites and there are many areas in between. But seriously, are you going to sit there and tell me (reading between the lines) that a black kid living in a rough neighborhood simply has no choice but to become a statistic? That's just fulfilling the doom and gloom. Why am I a racist for saying that the kid should take responsibility for itself and figure out a way to get out of the BS?
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#41 M-PG71C

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:44 PM

Putting this back on topic (and the OP), I agree fully. I been facing some pretty tough circumstances as of late, as I'm sure others have as well, but despite that, its been pretty good. I get little financial aid but I can still pay for college provided I save, its hard to put food on the table for two but I do it and do it well enough, and its hard to pay the bills/rent, but it gets done.

Its been a long four years of this, with significant ups and downs. Disregarding the economy altogether, its been tough in its own merits. But soon I'll have my degree and soon enough, I'll be working in geriatrics as a healthcare adminstrator. I've had to work hard, put up with some serious shit, and fight but its nothing that couldn't be done by anybody motiviated to get what they want.

I'm sure there's plenty of people here who go to school during the day and then work a 12 hour shift at night (in my case, at the hospital as a CNA). Despite all of that, life is damn good and I wouldn't trade it for anything. :)

The U.S.'s domestic policy is questionable at best (and thats regardless of who's in power honestly) but hey, it can be a whole world worse. :D
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#42 dohdough

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:49 PM

Treated equally under the law? You're operating under the premise that they aren't, with the statement that blacks are incarcerated more than whites. So, there are two ways to look at that, blacks get caught in the act more often than whites, or the system is setup against them. One of those options takes into account personal accountability while the other blames outside sources and lacks any and all personal accountability.

Which either way means black people have it far worse than white people. Sounds like...Institutional Racism.

I have strong opinions, ignorant or otherwise, regarding people acting like idiots and blaming others for their circumstances. I don't understand why people willingly and willfully engage in stupidity. If you join the Bloods or the Crips or whatever and then get caught selling drugs, murdering rival gang members and otherwise acting like your life is a real version of GTAIV, don't sit there and blame racist cops and judges for your fucked up life.

Blame yourself for going down that road. If you're living in the lala land of the blissful suburbs and you kill a kid in the neighborhood because you're driving home drunk from the bar, don't blame the kid for running after their football and don't blame the bar for serving you. Blame your dumbass self for getting too fucked up to drive, and then driving. What is so wrong with accepting the consequences of one's actions?

You already acknowledge that black people are treated worse than white people, so are some white people ALSO to blame? Why is it that black people should somehow be MORE responsible than the institutions that that act in a racist manner? Or what about the policies that keep poor people poor and the rich people richer. Don't those with the most power have a responsibility for screwing things up at the bottom?

False equivocation - I was attempting to demonstrate how the stereotype application can go multiple ways. I wasn't trying to group the two together.

All stereotypes are not equal and all discrimination is not equal. Calling someone a redneck doesn't mean shit. Hell, some people are proud to be called a redneck. You call someone a n****r, well I hope you're not going to play dumb and try to double talk your way into ignorance. Or maybe you should use better analogies.

I'm saying that rural "white crime" gets caught less, strictly due to the fact that there are less people around to do the catching. I'm not saying that they do more or less criminal activity, I'm simply saying that there's less law enforcement around.

So more law enforcement resources should be allocated towards areas with lower population density? Why do you think that there isn't more of a presence in those areas especially if there are more crimes being commited than a small department can handle?

Opposite of fairness under the law and extenuating circumstances - Is there a warrant out for the arrest of the person that gets treated differently for the same crime? Weapon possession? Prior convictions/repeat offender? In a stolen vehicle? Intoxicated at the time of apprehension? Resisting arrest?
That's 6 possible reasons for different treatment, not a single one involving race. Again, it's too easy to call out racism while ignoring numerous other possibilities.

WHICH IS WHY I SAID HARSHER SENTENCES FOR THE SAME CRIMES.

Your last bit, nice. How about a young black kid realizes that their education sucks, decides to do something about it, apply for grants, get student aid, educate themselves in other ways such that they don't have to depend on the school, do the work necessary to get themselves in a better situation, get a degree in education and then go back to where their school was crappy because no one cared and, well I don't know, maybe try and make a difference.
Nah, easier to "blame the man" and do Fuck all with your life isn't it?

And we're right back where we started with the state of the education system being insufficient to address the needs of the populace. Where are those resources? You already said that libraries suck, schools suck, parks suck, and everything fucking sucks. What do you propose beyond bootstraps and a prayer? You had ALSO already said that upward socio-economic mobility is virtually non-existant. I should just quote your other posts and have you argue with yourself.

Granted these are polar opposites and there are many areas in between. But seriously, are you going to sit there and tell me (reading between the lines) that a black kid living in a rough neighborhood simply has no choice but to become a statistic? That's just fulfilling the doom and gloom. Why am I a racist for saying that the kid should take responsibility for itself and figure out a way to get out of the BS?

A white man with a criminal record has a higher chance of getting a job than a black man with no criminal record with similar qualifications. A person with an "ethnic" sounding name is less likely by a factor of 6, to get a call back for an interview than a person with a white sounding name. You tell me what the poor black kid should do to against those statistics.

#43 nasum

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:28 PM

institutional racism? Judges are elected, meaning they can be removed if the populace thinks they aren't serving the community fairly. Why not get out and vote anti-incumbent for judges if you've elected one that you feel is racist? Juries are served by a random selection of people in the community. If you live in a predominantly black neighborhood, and you're found guilty by a jury, are the blacks on the jury guilty of racism? The judge sets the sentence, vote them out. The cops make the arrests, they're hired by city officials, so your elected city council and such are also racist. VOTE THEM OUT if you're dissatisfied. Shit, point this out to enough people and you may even get elected yourself if you cater to the whims of the disenfranchised.

Unless I was pointing out a contradiction, or being sarcastic for the sake of a point, I don't recall pointing out that blacks have it worse than whites. At least, not to the extent that the world is against them. I think they have it worse when it comes to living conditions, mainly because it seems that nobody wants to do anything about the problems. It's easier to blame others for the shortcomings of a shitty life.

And with all the n word thrown around in rap music and such, that isn't a badge of honor to some? Basically as long as it isn't a white dude calling you that, it's cool right? Richard Pryor said it best when he said he wasn't going to use that word anymore because he doesn't want to be that.

The lack of resources is due to the sparse population. There's less income in the area in terms of property taxes and whatnot to hire more police. You're seemingly accusing these areas of being a good ol' boys club and that they don't care about crime.

If you're honestly going to tell me that a repeat offender with the same record, arrested in the same circumstances, by the same officer, tried by the same jury and sentenced by the same judge will get a different result based on race then I can no longer argue this point with you. Perhaps it's naive of me to believe that justice is that blind, but I simply cannot believe that two people who are identical in every way but skin color will get a different sentence.

The resources are there. The kids aren't going to a classroom without a teacher. The books are there. The federal funding for education is there. The teacher's unions are there to lobby for money. What isn't there? Kids that actually want to learn. As pointed out in the other thread by MSI Magus, the culture willfully embraces failure, otherwise you're a snitch or a Tom or whatever. But now you're forcing me to paint with a broad brush which I'm trying to avoid.
I had to go to a wedding in rural Wisconsin a year or two ago. They had some dumb kids out there. Why? Because they weren't interested in learning. It's the same situation anywhere. If you have kids that aren't interested in learning and would rather goof off, they're likely to be fuckups regardless of creed.

Your last counterpoint still doesn't address personal accountability. However your second does which raises an interesting point. Policies that keep people poor. Follow the money, why is it advantageous for those in power to, through policy, essentially propogate failure? Who benefits most from promising extra benefits to the poor?

Throughout all of this, you've basically pointed at me and said "This is an example of a racist who doesn't burn crosses but is one anyways", yet you've offered nothing. How should we, as a society, absolve the problems of which you speak and still remain fair to everyone?

What you've pointed out:
Institutional Racism (I'm grouping inequal sentencing and economic issues here, feel free to divest)
Lack of education
Preference towards whites
and a few others as well.

Help me out here.
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#44 Clak

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:23 PM

Hold on, are they trying to say that the typical family in most European countries don't have an air conditioner, a refrigerator, TV, or a microwave?





Who knows.

Actually they may not have an air conditioner, they aren't used as much in Europe.
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#45 dohdough

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:47 AM

[quote name='nasum']institutional racism? Judges are elected, meaning they can be removed if the populace thinks they aren't serving the community fairly. Why not get out and vote anti-incumbent for judges if you've elected one that you feel is racist?[/QUOTE]
Not all judges are elected. I'd wager to say that most judges in this country aren't.

[quote]Juries are served by a random selection of people in the community. If you live in a predominantly black neighborhood, and you're found guilty by a jury, are the blacks on the jury guilty of racism?[/quote]
Juries are not random. The jury "pool" may be random, but those chosen to sit on a jury to hear a case aren't. The prosecution, defence, and judge decide who sits on a jury. You might not be able to stack a jury full of black people, but when a black person is going to trial, you can sure as hell stack the jury full of white people.

And yes, black people can have internalized racism. Look at Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman. Hell, Michael Jackson.

[quote]The judge sets the sentence, vote them out. The cops make the arrests, they're hired by city officials, so your elected city council and such are also racist. VOTE THEM OUT if you're dissatisfied. Shit, point this out to enough people and you may even get elected yourself if you cater to the whims of the disenfranchised.[/quote]
You want the disenfranchised to vote out people perpetuating institutional racism. This makes NO SENSE.

[quote]Unless I was pointing out a contradiction, or being sarcastic for the sake of a point, I don't recall pointing out that blacks have it worse than whites. At least, not to the extent that the world is against them. I think they have it worse when it comes to living conditions, mainly because it seems that nobody wants to do anything about the problems. It's easier to blame others for the shortcomings of a shitty life.[/quote]
So we're back to poor black people are poor because they're black and since they're black, they're poor?

Lemme break it down for you so hopefully you'll understand this time. I might be using some terms you're unfamiliar with so look them up before you post:

The US was an apartheid state up until about 1964. That was when overt and outright racism and discrimination was "outlawed" in certain areas of society. You know that thing in the Depression called the New Deal and the GI Bill? For all intents and purposes, it never went to people of color. I shouldn't need to enumerate how bad it was for black people back then. White people had priority in hiring and schools were not desegregated. This created the white middle-class. As for generational wealth? Black people were never given anything. Sharecropping is not ownership. Slaves were not reimbursed for their labor. They were not given an education. Do you know what that means? It mean generational poverty on a massive scale. Property taxes were made to stay within a community. This means that some school districts, mostly white, were much better than ones in black communities. This should sound familiar to you as well.

So not only were black people not given an education, able to take advantage of programs that they should qualify for, but they were actively prohibited from participating in any socio-economic mobility. When it came to the FHA, black communities were specifically targeted as being non-viable for loans where as white communities we're given a pass. This was the status quo up until about 1964. What it comes down to is that black people in this country were never really even given a chance.

If you followed that and it didn't go over your head, you can apply that to the nonsense you've been posting and see how ridiculous it is.

[quote]And with all the n word thrown around in rap music and such, that isn't a badge of honor to some? Basically as long as it isn't a white dude calling you that, it's cool right? Richard Pryor said it best when he said he wasn't going to use that word anymore because he doesn't want to be that.[/quote]
It's a term of kinship and unity. It's about empowerment and subverting it's influence. Why should you care how people want to relate to one another anyways. Do you find it unfair that they can say something you can't? When a white person used to say n****r, they were exercizing their power and authority over someone. If black people want to reappropriate it, what's the harm in that.

[quote]The lack of resources is due to the sparse population. There's less income in the area in terms of property taxes and whatnot to hire more police.[/quote]
Good thing the taxes from more well-to-do areas are redistributed to other areas that aren't doing as well.

[quote]You're seemingly accusing these areas of being a good ol' boys club and that they don't care about crime.[/quote]
Where'd that come from? No, I'm accusing the system of being highly selective in who it directs it's attention to.

[quote]If you're honestly going to tell me that a repeat offender with the same record, arrested in the same circumstances, by the same officer, tried by the same jury and sentenced by the same judge will get a different result based on race then I can no longer argue this point with you. Perhaps it's naive of me to believe that justice is that blind, but I simply cannot believe that two people who are identical in every way but skin color will get a different sentence.[/quote]
Why is it so difficult to believe? Even if you take race out of the equation and apply class, it's grossly unbalanced.

[quote]The resources are there. The kids aren't going to a classroom without a teacher. The books are there. The federal funding for education is there. The teacher's unions are there to lobby for money. What isn't there? Kids that actually want to learn. As pointed out in the other thread by MSI Magus, the culture willfully embraces failure, otherwise you're a snitch or a Tom or whatever. But now you're forcing me to paint with a broad brush which I'm trying to avoid.[/quote]
Maybe because you're painting yourself into a corner. What is black culture then?

[quote]I had to go to a wedding in rural Wisconsin a year or two ago. They had some dumb kids out there. Why? Because they weren't interested in learning. It's the same situation anywhere. If you have kids that aren't interested in learning and would rather goof off, they're likely to be fuckups regardless of creed.[/quote]
And those country bumpkins will still have it better than a black person in similar circumstances.

[quote]Your last counterpoint still doesn't address personal accountability. However your second does which raises an interesting point. Policies that keep people poor. Follow the money, why is it advantageous for those in power to, through policy, essentially propogate failure? Who benefits most from promising extra benefits to the poor?[/quote]
What is it with your fetish with personal responsibility. Doesn't personal responsibility lie with BOTH parties involved in any transaction? There is no such thing as a rational actor when perfect knowledge doesn't exist.

You want to know who benefits? The power elite. You know what happens to money that goes to welfare? It shoots straight back up to the top. It reinforces the system. The proles need to be distracted and kept dumb enough not to overthrow the power elite.

[quote]Throughout all of this, you've basically pointed at me and said "This is an example of a racist who doesn't burn crosses but is one anyways", yet you've offered nothing. How should we, as a society, absolve the problems of which you speak and still remain fair to everyone?[/quote]
I've offered you nothing?

[quote]What you've pointed out:
Institutional Racism (I'm grouping inequal sentencing and economic issues here, feel free to divest)
Lack of education
Preference towards whites
and a few others as well.

Help me out here.[/quote]
Well looky here. Looks like I offered something afterall.

Look, if you Really want to learn about this stuff, start here and read some entries:
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/

If you're not interested in learning, well, I'll just keep calling out racism in your posts and ideology.

#46 nasum

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 05:11 PM

Exactly, the elite benefit, it's been keeping democrats elected since the 70's...

So if black people have it so bad, why doesn't anyone do anything about it?

I meant that you've offered nothing in terms of solutions, you've just stated "problem." with nothing else.
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#47 dohdough

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 05:28 PM

Exactly, the elite benefit, it's been keeping democrats elected since the 70's...

What the Fuck does being a democrat have to do with it? Proto-republican democrats have been against progressive social change since before the New Deal. Civil Rights? Conservatives did not go along with it at all.

Posted Image

So if black people have it so bad, why doesn't anyone do anything about it?

People of color have been trying to do things for the last 500+ years. I've outlined the problems and barriers that you seem to have picked up on. It's not a large leap to make.

edit: Why don't YOU do something about it. Why don't more white people DO something about it since they're the ones with the institutions skewed in their favor? How far down into the rabbit hole do you really want to go. Seems to me that you're pretty happy with the way things are. I guess if I was a white male, I'd like things the way they are too!

I meant that you've offered nothing in terms of solutions, you've just stated "problem." with nothing else.

Social programs specifically targeted at low-income people of color to address issues that specifically affect people of color.


Read some entries on the link I provided. DO IT.

Edited by dohdough, 14 October 2010 - 05:42 PM.


#48 nasum

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:29 PM

blocked at work, I'll do it tonight or tomorrow from home when I get a chance.

Am I happy with everything? Not really, well aside from not having to barter livestock at the peel joint... On the other hand, I think anyone here in the US has it better than just about anywhere else on the planet. On average at least.

On the other hand, haven't there been social programs directed at low income black people for quite some time? Didn't you state earlier that perpetuating the welfare state hasn't done anything aside from keep the oppression going?
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#49 dohdough

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:58 PM

blocked at work, I'll do it tonight or tomorrow from home when I get a chance.

Am I happy with everything? Not really, well aside from not having to barter livestock at the peel joint... On the other hand, I think anyone here in the US has it better than just about anywhere else on the planet. On average at least.

And then you said that most problems are minor policy disagreements.

On the other hand, haven't there been social programs directed at low income black people for quite some time?

What makes you think they were targeted at low-income black people? Are you talking about affirmative action? That's benefitted white women far more than anyone else and not targeting low-income black people.

Didn't you state earlier that perpetuating the welfare state hasn't done anything aside from keep the oppression going?

No, I said that the power elite have a vested interest in keeping the proletariat poor, under-educated, and fighting over the scraps to take power from the power elite.

And please stop using right wing coded language like "welfare state" with me. We're not even close to a welfare state unless you're talking about the upper-classes that get more government subsidies than poor folk.

#50 nasum

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:26 PM

does "welfare programs" suit you better? I wasn't trying to be condescending.

I'm not talking about affirmative action. Welfare (not specific to blacks of course), jobs training, after school programs, etc...

"The urban poor need remedies that judges cannot order: public and private investment to create jobs that pay a living wage, training to help them learn new skills and understand the job market, and most of all a chance to move into racially and economically integrated neighborhoods where there are better opportunities and healthier cultural norms."

from: http://www.nytimes.c...gewanted=1&_r=1

and there is the problem. Who wants to put up a hot dog stand in a neoghborhood that is more likely to get vandalized/robbed/ignored/staffed by people who don't care/etc...? I go to the "shittier parts" of Minneapolis (my hometown) more often than not. It's brutal. Everything is broken or really dirty at the very least. Garbage cans and street signs are covered in grafiti, windows are broken on homes and stores, beggars are really aggressive and the gang members are pretty obvious about being there. Then I go to the "normal" parts of town and things are clean, people are pleasant and talk to each other, businesses are running without fear that some random person is going to come in and go nuts and whatnot.

So you ask why don't I do anything? What the hell am I supposed to do? Go down there with a broom and clean broken glass off the sidewalk? Grab some paint and clean the grafiti? Randomly hand out cash? If I do this, how likely do you think it is that I'd get my ass kicked vs. a "hey man, thanks"?
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#51 dohdough

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:07 PM

does "welfare programs" suit you better? I wasn't trying to be condescending.

I'm not talking about affirmative action. Welfare (not specific to blacks of course), jobs training, after school programs, etc...

"The urban poor need remedies that judges cannot order: public and private investment to create jobs that pay a living wage, training to help them learn new skills and understand the job market, and most of all a chance to move into racially and economically integrated neighborhoods where there are better opportunities and healthier cultural norms."

from: http://www.nytimes.c...gewanted=1&_r=1

and there is the problem. Who wants to put up a hot dog stand in a neoghborhood that is more likely to get vandalized/robbed/ignored/staffed by people who don't care/etc...? I go to the "shittier parts" of Minneapolis (my hometown) more often than not. It's brutal. Everything is broken or really dirty at the very least. Garbage cans and street signs are covered in grafiti, windows are broken on homes and stores, beggars are really aggressive and the gang members are pretty obvious about being there. Then I go to the "normal" parts of town and things are clean, people are pleasant and talk to each other, businesses are running without fear that some random person is going to come in and go nuts and whatnot.

The neighborhoods weren't always in that state. The question you should be asking is if the neighborhoods were always like that and if they weren't, what happened. What happened to the wealth. Then you can also ask why the "normal" neighborhoods are the way they are. Were they always "normal"(not economically depressed is a better way to describe it), and how and when did they become that way. FYI, hardwork isn't the answer.

So you ask why don't I do anything? What the hell am I supposed to do? Go down there with a broom and clean broken glass off the sidewalk? Grab some paint and clean the grafiti? Randomly hand out cash? If I do this, how likely do you think it is that I'd get my ass kicked vs. a "hey man, thanks"?

Or you could tutor struggling kids with school work, tutor ESL students, tutor prisoners, tutor citizenship classes, basically share knowledge(not ideology) with those that don't have as much. And yes, I have done those things.

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 03:24 AM

Am I happy with everything? Not really, well aside from not having to barter livestock at the peel joint... On the other hand, I think anyone here in the US has it better than just about anywhere else on the planet. On average at least.


"America might be the greatest country in the world but that's like being the prettiest Denny's waitress. Just because you are the best doesn't necessarily make you good." - Doug Stanhope

#53 nasum

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:14 PM

Why did the neighborhood go down hill?
Well that's an interesting question. My assumption would be based on rising crime rates and fear in the community of reprisal if they organize to push the crime out. People see crime rates as they're shopping for a house and decide that they don't want to move in to that area because they don't want their shit messed with. Ergo, property value goes down, the area generates less income for the city/county whatever, schools receive less funding, business starts to leave, even less income for the local govt and then there's nothing left.
I don't see white oppression in that.

I have tutored and when I'm more caught up with my own situation I really want to get back to it. On the other hand I've recently moved to a new city (within the same county) so I also have to figure out if these people need any accreditation beyond a reference from my last place.

I read some of your guy there. It's the same story, I see a lot of finger pointing and blame, but little to nothing by way of solutions, let alone ideas on a starting point...
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