The "Stay Classy, Obama" Thread

IRHari

IRHari

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Wherein we chronicle Obama's hatred, domestic terrorism, racism, and other everyday actions.

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration's Justice Department has asserted that the FBI can obtain telephone records of international calls made from the U.S. without any formal legal process or court oversight, according to a document obtained by McClatchy.
That assertion was revealed — perhaps inadvertently — by the department in its response to a McClatchy request for a copy of a secret Justice Department memo.
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http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/02/11/108562/obama-assertion-fbi-can-get-phone.html#

Stay classy, Obama.
 
He's going to screw over those with student loans which likely will affect many of you here. This will have a marked effect on health care indirectly as the resulting higher cost of medical school tuition will directly affect the supply of physicians particularly in primary care.

For those who don't want to listen through the whole video, basically the proposed budget will have student loan interest to start accruing immediately rather than being delayed until graduation. Student loan debt is the next major financial crisis looming and this will only worsen the problem.
 
[quote name='dopa345']He's going to screw over those with student loans which likely will affect many of you here. This will have a marked effect on health care indirectly as the resulting higher cost of medical school tuition will directly affect the supply of physicians particularly in primary care.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='HuffPo']"you have to pay interest beginning on day one of grad school, and that makes it so that you can't go to grad school.."[/QUOTE]

Interest collecting on Federal Student Loans is not a show-stopper on getting a college education. I personally have about $15k in FSLs, and over $100k in private loans for my undergrad education (because in reality, FSLs only cover so much, the rest is Pell grants and private loans).

Interest collecting on that extra $15k means nothing relatively, and anyone who thinks it would have prevented my attending college is over-dramatizing the change.

The reality is still the same as it always has been: Most students need outside aid to pay for college, and those students need to have the foresight to make one informed decision..."Is the degree I'm getting capable of paying back the loans I take?".

If they can't responsibly answer that question, they probably shouldn't be in college in the first place. It's a very simple math question.

~HotShotX
 
I'm willing to do my part to maintain tax cuts for the wealthiest.

Seriously, though, that's a horrible, horrible idea. I don't understand the logic behind that at all.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Way to keep pissing off your key demographic. We are so fucked.[/QUOTE]

2012 is going to be a campaign between Ronald Reagan and the Republican candidate.
 
Keep in mind it did say graduate school, so I'm assuming that won't effect those in undergrad? Still a really shitty move, even more so that they basically threaten that pell grant awards could be lowered otherwise. As if it's a game of who they're gonna screw.
 
That's going to devalue the wages of people in medicine - who already tend to despise Obama. Either doctors will earn less (because more of their earnings will have to go to repaying loans), or wages for physicians will increase. Seems like an indirect way of fucking up his own health care bills.

Also, that's going to turn all but a few PhDs into indentured servants for the remainder of their lives. Or, alternately, spurn salary increases for faculty (yeah right) that will be passed onto students in the form of tuition hikes.
 
Seriously, what is it with the cuts to everything that democrats are supposed to hold dear? Why are we still funding two wars when we're cutting back on things here which will hurt our own citizens?
 
I don't see a problem. I can see the case made for undergrad subsidies, but at that point shouldn't you really be on your own as far as education/career path? Ok, it hurts doctors. And lawyers. And basically everyone we're talking about here is top 25% in income in America.

In the interests of full hypocrisy disclosure, I currently service graduate school subsidized debt.
 
First and foremost, it contradicts Obama's blithe quote during the SOTU that students shouldn't go bankrupt trying to go to college.

I have a mortgage's worth of debt in my higher ed degrees, and I make a small pinch below the median in income. Getting into higher ed is already a bit of a 'service' job (i.e., you ain't doin' it for the income); this will exacerbate that problem substantially.

postgrad degrees ≠ 6 figure salary. Or even high 5's, necessarily.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']First and foremost, it contradicts Obama's blithe quote during the SOTU that students shouldn't go bankrupt trying to go to college.[/quote]
Totally. In a world full of things to cut, it's absurd to cut here. I agree.
I have a mortgage's worth of debt in my higher ed degrees, and I make a small pinch below the median in income. Getting into higher ed is already a bit of a 'service' job (i.e., you ain't doin' it for the income); this will exacerbate that problem substantially.

postgrad degrees ≠ 6 figure salary. Or even high 5's, necessarily.
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I'm sympathetic, I really am. And I agree to a large extent. I'm certainly not willing to do pitched battle over it. I'm just saying that at the macro level, how much sense does it make to incentivize graduates and doctorates when the income/debt ratio is so outrageous even without subsidies? Does the world need a Ph.D in *insert soft science here*? Of course. Does it need XX,000* per year? Hellz no. A very statistically significant amount of them will not get a job that pays anywhere near what it costs to cover their education. Why incentivize that? Isn't there a better way to target higher education needs?

Framed against the tax cut, this is a stupid, stupid, STUPID point I'm making. I'm just sayin, in a vacuum.

*assumption, I couldn't find a number
 
Well to be fair when I think of college I think of undergrad, I think most people probably do. That isn't to say it's fair by any means, but it's not making it any harder (than it already is) for anyone to get their undergrad degree. Unless schools have to raise salaries to compensate faculty. Still, you're right about med/law school tuition.
 
[quote name='dopa345']He's going to screw over those with student loans which likely will affect many of you here. This will have a marked effect on health care indirectly as the resulting higher cost of medical school tuition will directly affect the supply of physicians particularly in primary care.

For those who don't want to listen through the whole video, basically the proposed budget will have student loan interest to start accruing immediately rather than being delayed until graduation. Student loan debt is the next major financial crisis looming and this will only worsen the problem.[/QUOTE]

As an undergrad who just got a statement from the government, I can say that my loans are already accumulating interest. The only loans I have are federal student loans, and I only have $5,500 worth, but my latest bill says that my interest has bumped that up to about $5,663.
 
I'd get angry over this, but it's not like they were doing alot in this arena to start with.

At this point I honestly don't see how much more the gov't could fuck up the situation (However I'm confident they'll find a way)
 
It pisses me off that what the beltway media considers 'serious' nowadays is deficit spending. Anyone who prioritizes the economy over the deficit is laughed at.

What's brilliant is tying the deficit directly to the economy claiming it is breeding 'uncertainty'.

I guess this is Obama moving to the 'center', by cutting programs for middle class people and giving tax breaks to upper class people.

Stay classy...
 
[quote name='IRHari']It pisses me off that what the beltway media considers 'serious' nowadays is deficit spending. Anyone who prioritizes the economy over the deficit is laughed at.

What's brilliant is tying the deficit directly to the economy claiming it is breeding 'uncertainty'.

I guess this is Obama moving to the 'center', by cutting programs for middle class people and giving tax breaks to upper class people.

Stay classy...[/QUOTE]

There has to be sacrifice and tough choices made is what they say, but the Media lickspittles and the upper classes have no intention whatsoever of being the ones who sacrifice.
 
[quote name='Clak']Seriously, what is it with the cuts to everything that democrats are supposed to hold dear? Why are we still funding two wars when we're cutting back on things here which will hurt our own citizens?[/QUOTE]
But then defense contractors would lose business. And we can't have that, now can we?

We can't we ever have a good president? One that actually cares about the people. Now
 
I'm not going to start rambling about "Death Panels" like so many on the right are stupidly doing right now, but this quote is pretty awesome...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/us/politics/26death.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1

We would ask that you not broadcast this accomplishment out to any of your lists, even if they are ‘supporters’ — e-mails can too easily be forwarded. Thus far, it seems that no press or blogs have discovered it, but we will be keeping a close watch and may be calling on you if we need a rapid, targeted response. The longer this goes unnoticed, the better our chances of keeping it.
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Yeah, no one's trying to sneak anything past the American people here...
 
The_Divide_0211.jpg


400px-Trollface_More_HD.png
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's going to devalue the wages of people in medicine - who already tend to despise Obama. Either doctors will earn less (because more of their earnings will have to go to repaying loans), or wages for physicians will increase. Seems like an indirect way of fucking up his own health care bills.

Also, that's going to turn all but a few PhDs into indentured servants for the remainder of their lives. Or, alternately, spurn salary increases for faculty (yeah right) that will be passed onto students in the form of tuition hikes.[/QUOTE]

I just checked the Stafford Loans website, and the maximum amount for subsidized Stafford Loans for graduate students is $8,500 per year. Also, not all students are even eligible for the subsidized loans.

When compared to their massive private loans, I don't think that the interest accrual on $8,500/year while in medical school is going to make much of a difference for a doctor. Same situation for lawyers (although I'm not sure that the American people want to be subsidizing interest for future lawyers anyway - LOL.)

I'm not saying that I like this plan - I think that there are many better options for budget cuts. But, I really don't think that this is a big deal.
 
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Not everyone who goes to grad school studies medicine or law. A PhD in something like say Philosophy doesn't generally lead to a six figure salary. And really, not even all lawyers end up raking in the dough either. If you didn't go to one of the better schools and land a job in a big firm, you're kinda screwed.
 
[quote name='chiwii']I'm not saying that I like this plan - I think that there are many better options for budget cuts. But, I really don't think that this is a big deal.[/QUOTE]

I can see your point - the proposal is more or less eliminating *sudsidized* loans for postgrad education.

Still, the idea of making education more costly when our nation is already woefully uneducated is of concern to me - particularly in light of our willingness to make sure the wealthy keep every bit of their wealth and power.
 
Uneducated masses don't demand revolution. They demand American Idol, NASCAR, and crappy fast food.

I don't understand why people try to get PhD is philosophy on the public's dime. I'm all about scholarship and education but tax payers shouldn't be forced to subsidize things that don't benefit the public at large. Roads, schools, healthcare, and the arts benefit us all. A handful of guys that can go on for hours about Nietzche, Kant, and Descartes? Tell me the value in that.

Also, doctors aren't hurting. I work with many different types of doctors at work. None of them are in the poor house. Neurosurgeons are still getting six figure sign on bonuses right out of residency. Is that true for everyone? No. But you can't tell me that a few extra years of interest is going to kill medicine in America. Doctors are like any other special interest group. They bitch and moan anytime policies are enacted that affect their bottom line.
 
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Because philosophers seem to be some of the few people who understand that morality is a personal thing. That in my book is worth subsidizing it just to have a few people out there who understand that. so many people equate morality with the law, as if it's written somewhere in a book o'morality that this or that is moral/immoral.
 
[quote name='depascal22']
Also, doctors aren't hurting. I work with many different types of doctors at work. None of them are in the poor house. Neurosurgeons are still getting six figure sign on bonuses right out of residency. Is that true for everyone? No. But you can't tell me that a few extra years of interest is going to kill medicine in America. Doctors are like any other special interest group. They bitch and moan anytime policies are enacted that affect their bottom line.[/QUOTE]

Neurosurgeons are the high end of the salary spectrum and comprise a very small proportion of physicians. The problem is not that there will be fewer physicians, but that the supply of physicians will become heavily skewed towards specialties and away from primary care as the financial aspect becomes a bigger factor in how med school grads decide on their careers. When confronted with a $200,000+ educational debt, with reduced compensation in primary care (physician salaries, when adjusted for inflation have gradually declined over the last 20 years), they are going to opt for the higher paying specialities as a matter of necessity. Not a good a trend when the whole point of health care reform is to provide more access to care. Waiting times for primary care docs is becoming major issue. In my opinion, within the next 15-20 years, the concept of a primary care physician will cease to exist. Instead, primary care will be handled by mid-level providers like physician assistants and nurse practitioners. Sure they can handle the basic stuff but they lack the training and experience to discern whether your symptoms are benign or indicative of something more serious.
 
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[quote name='depascal22']Uneducated masses don't demand revolution. They demand American Idol, NASCAR, and crappy fast food.

I don't understand why people try to get PhD is philosophy on the public's dime. I'm all about scholarship and education but tax payers shouldn't be forced to subsidize things that don't benefit the public at large. Roads, schools, healthcare, and the arts benefit us all. A handful of guys that can go on for hours about Nietzche, Kant, and Descartes? Tell me the value in that.

Also, doctors aren't hurting. I work with many different types of doctors at work. None of them are in the poor house. Neurosurgeons are still getting six figure sign on bonuses right out of residency. Is that true for everyone? No. But you can't tell me that a few extra years of interest is going to kill medicine in America. Doctors are like any other special interest group. They bitch and moan anytime policies are enacted that affect their bottom line.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, so you are arguing for anti intellectualism within education. Where have I not heard this before.
 
Actually there is already an issue with a lack of general practitioners, it's one reason those little clinics have sprung up everywhere. The money is in specializing, not many doctors want to be the traditional family doctor anymore.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Uneducated masses don't demand revolution. They demand American Idol, NASCAR, and crappy fast food.[/quote]
Not that I disagree, but isn't this a symptom and not the disease?

I don't understand why people try to get PhD is philosophy on the public's dime. I'm all about scholarship and education but tax payers shouldn't be forced to subsidize things that don't benefit the public at large. Roads, schools, healthcare, and the arts benefit us all. A handful of guys that can go on for hours about Nietzche, Kant, and Descartes? Tell me the value in that.
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I think that there's a need for people that specialize in theory or sciences that might not see immediate results. Those philosophers form the backbone of many scientific, mathematical, psychological, and sociological laws and theories we have today.

Also, doctors aren't hurting. I work with many different types of doctors at work. None of them are in the poor house. Neurosurgeons are still getting six figure sign on bonuses right out of residency. Is that true for everyone? No. But you can't tell me that a few extra years of interest is going to kill medicine in America. Doctors are like any other special interest group. They bitch and moan anytime policies are enacted that affect their bottom line.
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I think you're right on with this. Medical doctors are generally NOT the working poor. Yes, they may work long hours, but will easily make more money in 10 years than the average household will make in a lifetime despite those extended hours.

Arguing that doctors are going to be in the "poor house" with a little more interest is like saying someone that makes $250k a year is "barely making ends meet."(reference to another thread ;))
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Hmmm, so you are arguing for anti intellectualism within education. Where have I not heard this before.[/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing that at all. I just don't think the public should subsidize someone that's going for a PhD in philosophy. You want to get a degree in civil engineering, medicine, or elementary education? Please. Use my tax dollars. Cuts have to be made somewhere.

Please don't think that I'm anti philosophy but you all have to admit there's a huge difference between taking philosophy classes to become well rounded and going after a PhD in philosophy.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm not arguing that at all. I just don't think the public should subsidize someone that's going for a PhD in philosophy. You want to get a degree in civil engineering, medicine, or elementary education? Please. Use my tax dollars. Cuts have to be made somewhere.

Please don't think that I'm anti philosophy but you all have to admit there's a huge difference between taking philosophy classes to become well rounded and going after a PhD in philosophy.[/QUOTE]

Still anti intellectualism, your arguing that Philosophy is impractical, and that it should not be subsidized in the same way hard sciences or areas of education that benefit the masses are. That is a classic anti intellectualist argument.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Still anti intellectualism, your arguing that Philosophy is impractical, and that it should not be subsidized in the same way hard sciences or areas of education that benefit the masses are. That is a classic anti intellectualist argument.[/QUOTE]

I prefer to call it pragmatism. Cuts have to be made somewhere.

We can't say that all college degrees are equally important. You know that a bachelor's in philosophy is practically worthless but you want to pretend that we should use tax dollars to subsidize them as much as pre-med or engineering. It's impractical for our current deficit situation.

Our country doesn't need more philosophers. It needs more nurses, doctors, and engineers. If you want to study philosophy, do it on your own dime.
 
Even if the contribution from a doctorate in philosophy is nothing but teaching philosophy at a university to others, then its still a good investment because the tax revenue from his salary will cover it in no time and then its profit from there.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Even if the contribution from a doctorate in philosophy is nothing but teaching philosophy at a university to others, then its still a good investment because the tax revenue from his salary will cover it in no time and then its profit from there.[/QUOTE]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/too-many-ph-d-%E2%80%99s-and-professionals/28236

Teaching jobs are harder to find in a tough economy. It's even worse in fields where there are little practical applications. Engineers can always get jobs doing work. Philosophers have to pray for a teaching job or a think tank position.

EDIT -- Even political science is hurting: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/09/03/polisci

Again, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be going into these fields. I just don't think we should be paying for it.
 
Pragmatism, that is what the Bolsheviks called it 90 years ago.

But if you want to call it pragmatism, that is completely fine. Cut them in the name of pragmatism. However I would expect that when the operating budgets for science departments plummets and that you will need increase govt. spending just to cover the money that humanities departments brought in for the sciences. In most colleges, mine included, most of the humanities budget goes straight to our science department (such is the way of the world and why me and a guy who requires the use of machine that costs an entire year of my schooling both pay the same flat rate), which is going to be sizeable since humanities majors are not exactly small.

Grant me a paragraph to explain why I am completely against your reasoning. You have some good points such as cuts need to be made somewhere, however your application of said point is not something I agree with. While I may not agree with the inclusion of majors such as techno cultural studies (yes it is a real major), I am not opposed to having it in college because of my belief in justice and society. I believe that a country should subsidize all college programs on the basis on equality, and as a way to help mitigate the effects of privilege. To me your position would reinstate it within the college system, mostly because these majors no longer receiving aid would again lapse into only those who can afford them and become privy only to the better advantaged. This I am against, no matter how “pragmatic” it may be, especially considering that Medicare, social security, and in a few years interest on debt will make up 70 percent or more of the budget, and you choose to harp on this. Hell, as much as it pains me to say it considering I have family members who serve, we need to cut the budgets of our armed forces, and in my own state prison spending (it still boggles my mind how a prison inmate can get a fully paid education but a ex-marine does not, it just seems wrong to me) before we think about educational budget cuts.
 
Did anyone see that 9/11 truther that Obama sent to Bill Maher's show? Dude was screaming and acting like a jerk.
 
He was yelling about drone attacks that kill people. They were discussing how Muslim women are treated and the crazy fuck started yelling how we're bombing and killing Muslim women.

I wasn't able to make out what he said about 9/11.
 
I thought I heard something, he was rambling on about all kinds of shit. This is the second time someone has done this.

I have to agree with what Maher was saying about how women are treated here vs. how they are treated in many conservative middle eastern countries. I mean things aren't perfect here, but some of the things that they feel are perfectly acceptable (both socially and legally) just aren't comparable.
 
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