George Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire BOOK Discussion thread-Book 5 out July 12th

dmaul1114

Banned
Seems there's consensus in the thread for the Game of Thrones TV series that a separate thread for the books is needed as the thread was getting full of spoiler tagged discussion about the books from people who have read them or are reading them currently.

Please use spoiler tags and indicated in the text before them which book your discussing.
 
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This is cool. I'm almost through book 3 and am going to chill out a while before I start book 4. I've heard it's a slog.
 
Yeah, book 4 wasn't as much of a page turner as it focused on secondary characters like Brienne and Sam, as well as a host of new characters (or characters only briefly mentioned in earlier books).

Writing style wise it's just as easy to read, so I wouldn't call it a slog. Just kind of a bummer to not know what's going on with the main characters. So I don't like his decision to split the book by focusing on these characters in book 4, and the mains in book 5. It would have been better to just jump around among all of them in each book (and some of the new characters probably could have been left out IMO as there were already too damn many characters to keep track of).
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, book 4 wasn't as much of a page turner as it focused on secondary characters like Brienne and Sam, as well as a host of new characters (or characters only briefly mentioned in earlier books).

Writing style wise it's just as easy to read, so I wouldn't call it a slog. Just kind of a bummer to not know what's going on with the main characters. So I don't like his decision to split the book by focusing on these characters in book 4, and the mains in book 5. It would have been better to just jump around among all of them in each book (and some of the new characters probably could have been left out IMO as there were already too damn many characters to keep track of).[/QUOTE]

Yeah that's the main problem with 4, all of a sudden you're reading about characters that are meh. Everyone's waiting for the book 5 to see what the hell is going on with the characters they are invested in.
 
Posting blind (not looking up) to say thanks for starting this thread! I'm on the 3rd book right now, and I'm looking forward to stopping in when I'm done with the 4th (or thereabouts).

Also, another argument for this thread: I'm sure the release of the 5th will motivate a lot of discussion, and people discussing the 5th book in the same thread as the TV series would have been impossible to navigate.

Anyhow, nicely done, and thanks again.
 
So I'm about done with Book 3 and
HOLY SHIT WHEN FREY HAS CATELYN AND ROBB STARK KILLED. I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING
 
[quote name='munch']So I'm about done with Book 3 and
HOLY SHIT WHEN FREY HAS CATELYN AND ROBB STARK KILLED. I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING
[/QUOTE]

I'm probably one of the only people that really thought the Red Wedding was amazing and really liked what it meant for the story. Well, not necessarily liked but was satisfied with part of the conclusion. I'm pretty sure I'm the minority, but I've always hated
Catelyn. Back in the day, I remember a lot of people defending Catelyn's actions, but no matter what, I'll always think she was a dumb broad. Of course, my elation that she was finally gone and dead was shortly lived... damn BWB.
 
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[quote name='munch']So I'm about done with Book 3 and
HOLY SHIT WHEN FREY HAS CATELYN AND ROBB STARK KILLED. I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING
[/QUOTE]

Worse was (in regards to the same event)
how Catelyn died, fucking brutal, just the description of it all was more intense than it'll probably be on screen for the TV show, just because the book has all those thoughts she's thinking the entire time it's happening. And them cutting off Rob's head and sewing Grey Wind's head on his shoulders was some horrific shit. If George can top the Red Wedding, I'll tip my hat to him. All the stuff that happened at Harrenhal comes close, especially about Jeyne Poole, who I found to be the most tragic minor character in the entire series.
 
I've just finished the first two books and I'm a quarter of the way through the third. Without spoiling anything does Hodor ever regain his wits?
 
[quote name='LordVila']I've just finished the first two books and I'm a quarter of the way through the third. Without spoiling anything does Hodor ever regain his wits?[/QUOTE]

No. At least not through book 3 (he's not in book 4) as Bran's story isn't covered in that book--should be back in book 5).
 
Yep, and that's why most don't think much of Book 4. The series already had arguably too many PoVs to begin with and book 4 introduces several new ones that aren't that interesting, and the existing PoVs covered were mostly secondary ones like Sam and Brienne, with Sansa, Cersei and Jamie being the only main ones that get much time.

Hopefully book 5 will be a return to form since it should be focused back on the main characters.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep, and that's why most don't think much of Book 4. The series already had arguably too many PoVs to begin with and book 4 introduces several new ones that aren't that interesting, and the existing PoVs covered were mostly secondary ones like Sam and Brienne, with Sansa, Cersei and Jamie being the only main ones that get much time.

Hopefully book 5 will be a return to form since it should be focused back on the main characters.[/QUOTE]

Well book 5
has a bunch of new ones
 
[quote name='yankeessuck']Well book 5
has a bunch of new ones
[/QUOTE]

This is what happens when you kill everyone interesting off by book 3
 
There's no way book 5 will be as disappointing as book 4 comparatively. It will have
Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Arya. Some of the best POVs in the whole series. Plus, we're getting Barristan the Bold. We wouldn't have his POV unless something is going to go down, and it should be interesting since he is such a famed fighter.

[quote name='zionoverfire']
This is what happens when you kill everyone interesting off by book 3
[/QUOTE]

If you're referring to Robb, he was a carbon copy of his father with the immaturity of his age mixed in. That's also why we never saw his POV. It would just be about vengeance, honor, etc. The interesting characters are the ones fraught with difficult scenarios that shape their character. Jon is a bastard, Tyrion a dwarf, Bran a cripple, Ayra a runaway showing us the face dancers etc.
 
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[quote name='zionoverfire']
This is what happens when you kill everyone interesting off by book 3
[/QUOTE]

We only really lost that one storyline though
 
Eh, once again I'm the minority, but I liked book 4 because of the new POV. Well, Brienne, that is. Other new POVs were meh. I am also a huge Arya fan, so I was happy to read of her time in Braavos. While I do feel that book 4 lacked a lot of the impact of the first three novels, I will admit that I was enthralled all the same. To me, there was enough of what I wanted to see (Sam, Brienne, Arya, Sansa, and Jamie) in order to counteract the duller POVs.
 
I liked Brienne's POVs too. I think she developed into a great character. Kinda like the female Ned. Where she's one of the very few "good" characters through and through.

That pretty much sums up book 4. Those who like Brienne enjoyed it, those who don't like her just piss and moan about the book and forget about all the big things that happened in it. I just hope Davos comes back as a POV and Barristan's reveals a lot of the past we're still in the dark about. Fingers crossed that Jon gets to talk to Howland Reed.

All I know is George can write a shitty book and still have it be leaps and bounds above anybody else out there grinding away on a typewriter.
 
My issue is I'm not so gungho on the series as a whole as most people are. It's very good, but it's nothing mindblowing IMO. None of the books are in my top ten or anything, probably not even top 20. So that makes a book like the 4th one that's a big step down from the first 3 even less appealing.

That said, book 4 wasn't terrible or anything, just nowhere near as good as the first 3. I enjoyed the parts with Brienne, Cersei and Jamie. Arya's stuff in that book was just ok compared to earlier books. Sansa I've never liked as a character. And I really didn't care about any of the new POVs with the Greyjoys or the Dornish stuff.
 
[quote name='Anexanhume']There's no way book 5 will be as disappointing as book 4 comparatively. It will have
Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Arya. Some of the best POVs in the whole series. Plus, we're getting Barristan the Bold. We wouldn't have his POV unless something is going to go down, and it should be interesting since he is such a famed fighter.



If you're referring to Robb, he was a carbon copy of his father with the immaturity of his age mixed in. That's also why we never saw his POV. It would just be about vengeance, honor, etc. The interesting characters are the ones fraught with difficult scenarios that shape their character. Jon is a bastard, Tyrion a dwarf, Bran a cripple, Ayra a runaway showing us the face dancers etc.
[/QUOTE]

Eh, killed off or significantly altered all the decent villains while he was at it, made the series significantly more complex but with no real intertwining plot. You got an invasion from the north, some dragon lady maybe sailing on over, random rebellion and a weakened throne and book 4 did nothing to fix this.

I was a big fan of the series but book 4 was terrible, and after waiting 6 years for book 5 to come out I can't imagine how many more decades it will take to actually finish the series.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']
Eh, killed off or significantly altered all the decent villains while he was at it, made the series significantly more complex but with no real intertwining plot. You got an invasion from the north, some dragon lady maybe sailing on over, random rebellion and a weakened throne and book 4 did nothing to fix this.

I was a big fan of the series but book 4 was terrible, and after waiting 6 years for book 5 to come out I can't imagine how many more decades it will take to actually finish the series.[/QUOTE]

Killed off or altered the decent villains? Who are you talking about? Joffrey? He was a foolish boy protected only by his name and what the throne afforded him. There was nothing interesting about him at all. The real masterminds behind that whole ordeal, the twins, are very much alive and both in transitory scenarios.

No intertwining plot? Are you even paying attention? There's a bttle for the throne, the threat beyond the wall and Dany's rise to prominence. Those have been prevalent from the first book.

To get an idea of why book 5 took so long, read this. http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html
 
[quote name='Anexanhume']
Killed off or altered the decent villains? Who are you talking about? Joffrey?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe he means
Gregor and Sandor Clegane? Though people have theories about the latter still being alive and he wasn't really a villain. Hell, some think Gregor is being turned into a frankenstein monster as well, so I don't buy a lot of these theories anyway! :D
 
[quote name='Anexanhume']
Killed off or altered the decent villains? Who are you talking about? Joffrey? He was a foolish boy protected only by his name and what the throne afforded him. There was nothing interesting about him at all. The real masterminds behind that whole ordeal, the twins, are very much alive and both in transitory scenarios.

No intertwining plot? Are you even paying attention? There's a bttle for the throne, the threat beyond the wall and Dany's rise to prominence. Those have been prevalent from the first book.

To get an idea of why book 5 took so long, read this. http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html
[/QUOTE]

Let's see:
Tywin gets killed
Tyrion kills his father and goes rouge
The twins are separated with one gimped and showing signs of morality.
Yeah whole lot of interesting villains left....

The plot is LOST, no one is actually doing any battling they're all running around entirely absorbed in their own little worlds and quests while some supposed giant bogeyman that's only been seen in the prologue of the first book is supposedly hiding on the other side of a huge wall....

Hopefully he can actually put some sense of relevancy back into his series in book 5.

And no I'm not going to read 3 pages of excuses for a book that should have been finished at the latest in 08.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']
Let's see:
Tywin gets killed
Tyrion kills his father and goes rouge
The twins are separated with one gimped and showing signs of morality.
Yeah whole lot of interesting villains left....

The plot is LOST, no one is actually doing any battling they're all running around entirely absorbed in their own little worlds and quests while some supposed giant bogeyman that's only been seen in the prologue of the first book is supposedly hiding on the other side of a huge wall....

Hopefully he can actually put some sense of relevancy back into his series in book 5.

And no I'm not going to read 3 pages of excuses for a book that should have been finished at the latest in 08.
[/QUOTE]

Right, it's only interesting if they're battling. All that scheming and political intrigue is for sissys. By the way, where's the princess in a guarded tower? Jesus, can this guy even write?

Only seen in the prologue, and the chapter where one tries to kill the lord commander of the wall, and the chapter where one meets Sam and takes him on an elk ride...
 
In regards to that, and I don't think this needs spoilers, one of my biggest gripes with the books is how little it has focused on the white walkers and other stuff north of the wall.

As a fantasy fan, that was what interested me most in the plot so far and it's been on the periphery too long. But that's the nature of the series, it's more historical fiction than fantasy.

Still a mostly entertaining read. Just a bit tiring at time with all the POVs etc. to keep track of, so I still tend to prefer lite fantasy fare like R.A. Salvatore's work where I can just turn off my brain and be mindlessly entertained.

I have to read a lot of dense stuff for work so I have a hard time getting motivated to read complex fiction in my spare time. Which is why it took me roughly 4 months to get through the first four books as I mostly could only stand to read a couple chapters a night. If I'm going to have to "work" at reading something I'd generally rather read non-fiction so I'm actually learning something.

But anyway, I'm glad the 5th one is coming out in summer. I'm not nearly as burnt out in the summers since I refuse to teach summer courses and thus just focus on my research work and don't work nearly the hours I do during the academic year. So I should be able to read it faster and enjoy it more than I did reading the first 4 in the middle of the spring semester when I was fried and burnt out and didn't really have the mental energy to read the series as carefully as it requires.
 
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[quote name='Anexanhume']
Right, it's only interesting if they're battling. All that scheming and political intrigue is for sissys. By the way, where's the princess in a guarded tower? Jesus, can this guy even write?

Only seen in the prologue, and the chapter where one tries to kill the lord commander of the wall, and the chapter where one meets Sam and takes him on an elk ride...
[/QUOTE]

If you haven't noticed pretty much everyone doing actual coherent plotting is dead and 3 times in 4 books? What a truly horrible enemy must lurk behind this wall it seems to be trying oh so hard to make itself relevant to the story, lol.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']
Let's see:
Tywin gets killed
Tyrion kills his father and goes rouge
The twins are separated with one gimped and showing signs of morality.
Yeah whole lot of interesting villains left....

The plot is LOST, no one is actually doing any battling they're all running around entirely absorbed in their own little worlds and quests while some supposed giant bogeyman that's only been seen in the prologue of the first book is supposedly hiding on the other side of a huge wall....

Hopefully he can actually put some sense of relevancy back into his series in book 5.

And no I'm not going to read 3 pages of excuses for a book that should have been finished at the latest in 08.
[/QUOTE]

I dont totally disagree but isnt the book at its best when its not just black and white in terms of this guy is good and this guy is evil?

And nowhere in GRRMs talk of the book did he mention how he went on 800 vacations. Lets just pray the HBO show lasts so he will be pressured to finish the series.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']
If you haven't noticed pretty much everyone doing actual coherent plotting is dead and 3 times in 4 books? What a truly horrible enemy must lurk behind this wall it seems to be trying oh so hard to make itself relevant to the story, lol.
[/QUOTE]

The people that are dead are the ones who were overtly planning and laying all of their cards on the table. People like Baelish, Varys, Dany all are still alive because they know when to shut up and live to tell another tale.

On top of that, people like Asha, Theon, Stannis and others who have made no secret about their plots still live yet.

You have to show a little intelligence and recognize stuff is going on behind the battles and people dieing.

I also don't understand what you want to come of the Others. Do you want them to be in the conflict earlier? Obviously the story has been planned out to where they start to become a problem at a particularly crucial moment. Say, when the seven kings are torn asunder from civil war and at their weakest? One even might venture to think their arrival is coincident with the arrival of winter. And with a book 6 title like Winds of Winter, I've got no idea when they could possibly be a factor.

[quote name='yankeessuck']I dont totally disagree but isnt the book at its best when its not just black and white in terms of this guy is good and this guy is evil?

And nowhere in GRRMs talk of the book did he mention how he went on 800 vacations. Lets just pray the HBO show lasts so he will be pressured to finish the series.[/QUOTE]

What vacations? Although he made frequent trips, they were almost always in regard to promoting his books or TV series. He recently got married and hasn't even had a hooneymoon yet. He's a slow god damned writer (who constantly edits and rewrites) with too many projects and obligations. It's as simple as that.
 
[quote name='yankeessuck']I dont totally disagree but isnt the book at its best when its not just black and white in terms of this guy is good and this guy is evil?

And nowhere in GRRMs talk of the book did he mention how he went on 800 vacations. Lets just pray the HBO show lasts so he will be pressured to finish the series.[/QUOTE]

Well when your first 3 books are heavily good/evil slanted pulling off an abrupt change in book #4 requires a change in direction, book #4 sadly had no real direction at all.
 
The 4th book was okay. I was kinda hoping for more of a moral turnaround to Jamie's character (and that he might start banging and fall in love with the maid of tarth).

I won't be getting the 5th book on day one or anything though. (I never buy books new). It's way too difficult to carry around a 600+ page hardcover book or leave it on my bench at work to read. I'll wait for the library to get in the paperback.
 
[quote name='Anexanhume']
You have to show a little intelligence and recognize stuff is going on behind the battles and people dieing.

I also don't understand what you want to come of the Others. Do you want them to be in the conflict earlier? Obviously the story has been planned out to where they start to become a problem at a particularly crucial moment. Say, when the seven kings are torn asunder from civil war and at their weakest? One even might venture to think their arrival is coincident with the arrival of winter. And with a book 6 title like Winds of Winter, I've got no idea when they could possibly be a factor.
[/quote]


You know whenever people claim the need to think deeply about things it always smacks of author laziness to me. It's very easy to seem deep, look at M Night Shyamalan, look most people quite a few movies before they realized all his deep mystery was really just wordplay and an inability to write a comprehensive plot.

I think Martin needs to actually have a focus for his story, currently you have a bunch of people wandering around pissed at each other, a couple dudes hanging out on a wall and a women with dragons an ocean away with no real purpose binding them together anymore.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Well when your first 3 books are heavily good/evil slanted pulling off an abrupt change in book #4 requires a change in direction, book #4 sadly had no real direction at all.[/QUOTE]

But most of the "villians" you mentioned before are all in Kings Landing so it doesnt have the effect on the characters who arent there. Do you read Jons chapters hoping thinking he is going to go kill Joffrey? The series was always about the characters doing their own thing.

As I said before I dont totally disagree and I had thought about this too but until we read the 5th I think its too early to be concerned. The biggest mistake of the 4th book is how it was split up and it feels like a side story because of that.
 
[quote name='eldergamer']I won't be getting the 5th book on day one or anything though. (I never buy books new). It's way too difficult to carry around a 600+ page hardcover book or leave it on my bench at work to read. I'll wait for the library to get in the paperback.[/QUOTE]

That's one of many reasons to switch to an e-reader! With my Kindle I don't have to worry about lugging around 1,000 page books etc.
 
[quote name='yankeessuck']But most of the "villians" you mentioned before are all in Kings Landing so it doesnt have the effect on the characters who arent there. Do you read Jons chapters hoping thinking he is going to go kill Joffrey? The series was always about the characters doing their own thing.

As I said before I dont totally disagree and I had thought about this too but until we read the 5th I think its too early to be concerned. The biggest mistake of the 4th book is how it was split up and it feels like a side story because of that.[/QUOTE]

Ah quotation marks! :lol:

I'd say when an author makes a family responsible for the deaths of the last 2 kings through treachery and their current inbred bastard son who is also born through treachery king he's trying rather hard to cast them as villains.

For the first three books everyone's events where focused on the Lanisters and the crown. Rob is off to kill the Lanisters get the crow, one sister to be married to the crown, one escaping from the crown and Jon is off at the wall endlessly debating about his role to protect the crown. By book 4 Robs dead, both sisters have escaped the crown, Jons decided he must protect the kingdon and the boy king is dead. In a sense the whole first story arch was completed but Martin never bothered to start a second one.
 
I'd say the next story arc (after book 5) is likely to be Jon Snow taking the thrown to defend the land against the threat from the north. Or even a Jon/Daeynrs (dragon chick) alliance once the "greater enemy" has been revealed.

Cliche, I know.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']
I'd say when an author makes a family responsible for the deaths of the last 2 kings through treachery and their current inbred bastard son who is also born through treachery king he's trying rather hard to cast them as villains.

For the first three books everyone's events where focused on the Lanisters and the crown. Rob is off to kill the Lanisters get the crow, one sister to be married to the crown, one escaping from the crown and Jon is off at the wall endlessly debating about his role to protect the crown. By book 4 Robs dead, both sisters have escaped the crown, Jons decided he must protect the kingdon and the boy king is dead.

In a sense the whole first story arch was completed but Martin never bothered to start a second one.[/QUOTE]


Well the whole family isnt all bad

Well they still have the crown but I dont buy that. Rob wasnt never as important as you make him out to be, Arya/Bran have been doing their own thing for 3 books, the stuff on the wall was seperate from the kingdom until Stannis was there, and Daenerys isnt really effected by the Lannisters either. The stories for these characters dont all of a sudden disappear because a certain villain disappearing.

We dont what GRRM has started because the 5th book is the real continuation of the 3rd.
 
True, the 4th book seems to have functioned as a transition. With there being 7 books, two halves to the story, and one book in the middle that is left with the task of being a sort of "intermission." Pretty much why it was so light on big events unlike the third book, which could be like a punch in the gut at times with all the crazy shit that happened.

Originally there was supposed to be like a 5 year gap between B1-3 and B4-6. Where the Stark kids were all older. But having to fill up a split book so it would be two full length novels seems to be functioning as a realtime alternative to having a time lapse. Especially with Sansa and Arya's POVs, which are looking to basically have them "mature" and be where they would have been if a time lapse was used.

If anything, the HBO series should have added value when they get to this point and hopefully reorganize the B4 and B5 content so it's chronological.
 
Trying to come in here and post quickly without reading too much above, since I'm only in book 2. Just got to the scene where the angry mob in King's Landing goes beserk and someone throws crap (literally) at Joffrey. I've wanted to do that since I first met the kid.

Okay, I'll be back in a few months when I've caught up. :D
 
I reckon at the end of book 5 shit is gonna get real.

As the title of the next book talks about Winter I reckon one of the last chapters of book 5 will be the big bad coming over the wall, prolly a Jon chapter. Also something big happening in the last Dany chapter as well.

I hope there's more Bran stuff in the next book, I've kind of lost where he is at the mo, but it seemed as he's doing stuff with magic that he'd be an important character.
 
Yeah, Hodor has been hauling his ass around in a basket for the entire series. Lol, I think Bran and Arya's entire purpose
is to always be one step away from reuniting with family and just missing the boat.
 
I'm through the first 3 books, I'm now about 10% through the 4th. I think I'm going to take a break here, for as relatively short as Book 4 is, I need a break.

The 2nd and 3rd books made for one of the most exciting adventure/intrigue stories I've read. It was an honest page turner, it was a lot of fun. While I don't identify with the characters in a way that really pulls me into the story, I love that all of them live in some nebulous gray area. And I think it speaks to Martin's skill that the two most conventional characters (in my view at least) of Jon and Danaerys are still made very compelling. It's been a fun read, it's gone by quickly.

Also, I tried to catch up on the TV series, but I just can't get into it. It's hard to take it on its own, I can't but help think of the books, and the series trims too much from the books. I just don't enjoy it. (Better to mention this here than in the TV thread, this thread deserves a little cross-pollution of its own.)

I'm glad that I read the first before I saw the series, as their casting doesn't taint the images I have in my head for the characters. I pictured all the Starks as being more horse faced, as they're described in the woods. The Ned Stark in my head looks like a taller Sarah Jessica Parker in a black wig, with a big Cloud Strife sword ("Ice") over his back. Jon in my head looks like a slightly shorter David Schwimmer from Friends. Arya just looks like a miniature pony, basically.

They should've called me about the casting. I'd have nailed it.
 
[quote name='dothog']"Scale" meaning that something like the Wall isn't big enough? Or King's Landing/Red Keep isn't big enough?[/QUOTE]

Like the number of people in drogo's khalzar, the size if the army, etc. It's a minor complaint.
 
Yeah, that's a pretty valid complaint. Viserys expected to just stomp on Westeros with this army he pimped his sister out for, but they have never showed it to be very large at all. And there are other Khalasars, Drogo's is just the biggest. They also have yet to show the other three bloodriders. I heard a rumor they won't, that they just combined two bloodriders into one (gave him both the sword and a whip) and dumped the third bloodrider. Which sucks, because Danys entourage was small to begin with, and only had a handful of named characters.

I think the reason they haven't shown Drogo's army to be massive on the show is so (BOOK SERIES SPOILER)
It's a more intimidating force when Dany gets her army of Unsullied. They might not have wanted to depict the Dothraki as overly hardcore because they can't compare to the Unsullied. Can't wait for Dany's episodes next season, those are going to be awesome as hell.

I notice the complaints that the show trims so much out, but I guess I have to respect that what they leave in (for the most part) is completely accurate. They haven't taken a whole lot of liberties on the show. Just a few scenes that didn't happen in the book (Renly & Loras, Viserys in the bathtub, etc.) to create more believable motivation for other characters that would probably end up dead soon but would still need a purpose for the TV audience to understand.
 
Yeah, they didn't in the book either if I recall correctly. But Meryn Trant is still alive and well. I doubt Syrio escaped.
 
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