New Feedback System: speak up now or forever hold your peace...

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CheapyD

CheapyD

Head Cheap Ass
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I had posted most of this before, but have changed it since. I deleted the previous replies...lets start over...

I wanted to update you guys on the trading system situation...

I have found an eBay style feedback system that I think would be very good for you guys. 100x better than what you were using before.

Here it is in action: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/traderratings.php
You can play around with it, I can easily reset it.

Trader Ratings - A user feedback hack
Copyright ©2004 Jason Rabel, All Rights Reserved.


Features:
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
• Rate another member: Positive / Negative / Neutral
• Specify Buyer, Seller, or Trade
• Leave comments about the deal
• Records date when rating created
• Specify a URL to the deal
• Display ratings over time
• Filter based on Buyer/Seller/Trade/or feedback they left for others
• Users can edit/delete ratings they left for others (time based limitation)
• Admins & Mods can edit/delete anyone's ratings (just in case)
• Stats page showing best & worst rated members, and recent ratings
• PM notification when a person is rated

Basic Info:
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The way the system works is very simple. The only part that might confuse someone is that the Feedback Score is based only on UNIQUE members (like Ebay). The system still tracks Total Feedback Received.

Also, there are simple checks in place to make sure users actually do select proper info and enter a comment. A user is not able to rate themself (obviously). Permissions for viewing / rating are similar to standard forum viewing / posting permissions. Also it checks to make sure users exist and all that good stuff.

There is a field for a link to the trading forum thread where the deal went down. This field is optional at the default, but we can change it if we decide to.

The Catch:
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
There is always a catch...we need to decide what to do with old feedback.
There are ways to import it, but its tricky.

Feedback Score is based only on UNIQUE members. If we keep the system this way, I need Userid numbers (not names)for both traders, something i'm sure you havent been tracking. That means someone is going to have to look 'em up which is a lot of work.

The work around...
I can create a dummy user to leave feedback for all and import just the feedback scores for each active trader, but because that won't be feedback from a unique user, your Feedback Score will only be 1. The system will still display your total postive feedback, but it will not count toward your Feedback score. Bummer.

If we change Feedback Score to not be based on unique members, then we avoid that problem, and the dummy user method will affect your Feedback score, but the system is more prone to abuse going forward, since someone could easly create a seperate user account and jack up their Feedback score.

Now what happens?
 
[quote name='WhipSmartBanky']Now this is damn slick! And fun! Slickfun. Funslick...no wait, that's after the slickfun![/QUOTE]

Did you actually ever trade with DLF?:lol:
 
Don't shoot me for mentioning this. But with all due respect Cheapy, how about finding / using a different system all together? There are a few out there (which are relatively cheap) that could work and have fewer drawbacks and less work (for you and the other mods). JMO.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']
If we change Feedback Score to not be based on unique members, then we avoid that problem, and the dummy user method will affect your Feedback score, but the system is more prone to abuse going forward, since someone could easly create a seperate user account and jack up their Feedback score.
[/QUOTE]
Of the above options for this system, I think I like this one. On a site like CAG, I think each trade is important, not trades with unique people. Also, I would think abuse isn't too hard to spot, and people could just notify the mods if they see abuse of the system.

Edited to add: Okay, I'm probably totally missing it, but how do you add feedback? When I search for a member's name, it shows the user profile (not ratings profile), and I can't find the link to add feedback.
 
[quote name='joshingit']Don't shoot me for mentioning this. But with all due respect Cheapy, how about finding / using a different system all together? There are a few out there (which are relatively cheap) that could work and have fewer drawbacks and less work (for you and the other mods). JMO.[/QUOTE]Regardless, of the system, if you want your old feedback imported, someone is going to have to do it. Its not going to just appear out of thin air.

Feel free to find another system and bring it to my attention.
The other one I know about is this one:
http://www.photopost.com/class/featuresphp.html
Site in action: http://www.viperalley.com/classifieds/index.php
Its a lot more complicated than Trader Ratings.




[quote name='judyjudyjudy']Edited to add: Okay, I'm probably totally missing it, but how do you add feedback? When I search for a member's name, it shows the user profile (not ratings profile), and I can't find the link to add feedback.[/QUOTE]For testing purposes, just click on the number next to ther persons name on the http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/traderratings.php page.

I don't have links to peoples feedback on their profile or the memberlist yet.
I'm waiting to see if we are going to use this system.
 
is there any way we can have trades pend before they are done? example:

i agree to trade x for y, so we set up that x for y was agreed upon by both users.

also importing feedback sounds like a pain in the ass no matter how you look at it. if people want to voulenteer to do it, thats fine, but it should be all or none, not contact some people to get your feedback in.

it could just work ike this old feedback: 58 new feedback: 2

it would save alot of work, again, if no one is up to it, i most definetly am not up to it...
 
So would we still keep a feedback thread so we can link to it in our feedback and say what we traded and what not? Or would we start making our own threads for that?
 
[quote name='punqsux']is there any way we can have trades pend before they are done? example:

i agree to trade x for y, so we set up that x for y was agreed upon by both users.

also importing feedback sounds like a pain in the ass no matter how you look at it. if people want to voulenteer to do it, thats fine, but it should be all or none, not contact some people to get your feedback in.

it could just work ike this old feedback: 58 new feedback: 2

it would save alot of work, again, if no one is up to it, i most definetly am not up to it...[/QUOTE]

This is the author's plan for the update to Trader Ratings:
I think the 3rd thing on the list is what you are talking about.

Plans For Future Releases:
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
• rebuttal / followup comments
• item description (possibly instead of thread url)
• button on thread that buyer/seller clicks to tie the transaction to two people


We could also add a field on the User Profie screen which shows your feedback score on the old system and just start fresh on this one.


[quote name='judyjudyjudy']So would we still keep a feedback thread so we can link to it in our feedback and say what we traded and what not? Or would we start making our own threads for that?[/QUOTE] If we decide to use this system, you provide a link to your thread where the deal occured (or your tradelist) when you leave feedback. We can make providing a link optional or manditory.
You would not have to keep a feedback thread.
 
Yeah, I figured you'd all wonder when I'd be chiming in on the new feedback system. :D

Since I have 269 (257 posted, 12 pending) feedback and over 150 unique CAGs I've traded with, I think I end up being the extreme case for any changeover to a new feedback system. Same goes for anyone in the top 5 for trading tally ranking.

If it comes down to working on importing all the old feedback, I'll volunteer myself on doing it, as long as someone gives me the direction on where to go to do it, as well as the ability to do it. It's in my best interest to keep that damn huge number up there, since I busted quite a bit of hump to get it to that point. And the same goes for all the other CAGs out there. I'd prefer to keep all the existing rankings alive and migrate them into the new feedback system and let it pick up from that point forward.

Of course, any help is always appreciated in such a task, though I'd like to make sure that all the CAGs who have worked through the old system and get their rankings up there, be it 1 or 269, so that we're on the same level as before.

I agree without a question that a new system is needed, I'd just hate to see the fruits of the old system get pushed aside because of it being a pain in the ass to get it moved into the new system, or that we keep some side-post of the "old" rankings that people have to move into. We're making big moves forward with vBulletin, why not make sure we're moving forward in all things?
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Each trade takes up one line in the DB (and the below Excel sheet).
If you fill out this forum, I can import it into the new Feedback system.
You have to use the User's ID#, not their name.
Comments, Date, and URL can be left blank.
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/trade/feedbackform.xls[/QUOTE]

I have a copy of the form. Just grab the counts from the tally thread, put the user ID into column A, put the count in column C, and don't fill anything else in the other columns?

Also, the user ID is what comes up in the u= portion of the link to the user's info, which for me would be 16519, as show in the link to my profile below?

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/member.php?u=16519
 
Edited my above post...oops
By the way, I am pretty suprised how few people (apparenly) actually care about this.
I see lots of trade topics getting bumped/etc, but very few posts in this topic.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Edited my above post...oops
By the way, I am pretty suprised how few people (apparenly) actually care about this.
I see lots of trade topics getting bumped/etc, but very few posts in this topic.[/QUOTE]

So, this is from your example in the revised Excel spreadsheet:
Row 3's example will leave a positve feedback score for CheapyD, from shrike4242 (as the buyer)
Row 4's example, returns the favor, and will leave a positve feedback score for shrike4242 from CheapyD (as the seller)
To simplify entry, only colums A, B, and C are really mandatory. We can default column F to Trade, use a common date, and leave comments and url out for all old feedback
Click to expand...

Since you're needing bidirectionality on the feedback input, wouldn't this necessitate going through all the feedback posts and add them in, one at a time?

The quick & dirty way would be to go through the tally thread and add in the scores to the users in question, without filling in the items in Column B. The more complete way is to go through all the posts and fill 'em in one at a time.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Edited my above post...oops
By the way, I am pretty suprised how few people (apparenly) actually care about this.
I see lots of trade topics getting bumped/etc, but very few posts in this topic.[/QUOTE]

I care! I care! I'd rather be able to keep the old feedback and have it incorporated into the new system (which looks sweet), if possible. I don't trade too often but I've done it about 10 or 11 times and I'd hate to start over...
 
[quote name='shrike4242']The quick & dirty way would be to go through the tally thread and add in the scores to the users in question, without filling in the items in Column B. The more complete way is to go through all the posts and fill 'em in one at a time.[/QUOTE]There is no "total score field". The Feedback system tallies them on the fly, thus necessitating two lines in the DB per trade.
 
could we set up a subforum so that certain trusted CAG's could implement a trade system like IGN with a sticky listing everyone's number. That way people can have their feedback tallied and imported because we can then stick their number next to their name to make the importing process easier.

I know the idea does not sound all that easy at the moment, but if a couple of us tackle it, it could be done with not all that much problem (if we get people to help maybe we could give them mod power while the transformation takes place so they could delete posts that were added in the other forum to make the tally process go easier)

and I know I could have made my idea clearer, but I am running on fumes from school (2 tests and a paper this week ,and two weeks and a paper next week). Though I may be tired, I would be willing to put some work in on this importing this weekend as long as my uncle is out of the hospital (he should be by then)

and I know I am talking out of my ass, because I do not know what all you can do with excel and if there is an easier way of importing the tally to show the score (I really don't wanna lose my tally)
 
Sure, less work for me, but that sure is a low tech way of approaching this, and to me, doesn't sound like that much of an improvement over what you have now.
Whatever you guys decide...
 
I actually have never had a problem with the feedback system (besides people not leaving me feedback). I know alot of people want it changed though I must be missing something. :D I would help with the importing task, but I'm afraid I don't get enough work done as it is. ;)
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Sure, less work for me, but that sure is a low tech way of approaching this, and to me, doesn't sound like that much of an improvement over what you have now.
Whatever you guys decide...[/QUOTE]


I only want to use it to transfer over the data. Just a way to break it down and make sure that everyone has their feedback show up in the feedback score
 
[quote name='CheapyD']There is no "total score field". The Feedback system tallies them on the fly, thus necessitating two lines in the DB per trade.[/QUOTE]

Damn laptop. :twisted:

What I was trying to say is that I understood that the system would do the tallies on the fly, though what I'm trying to get at is if all the posts need to be added in into one ginormous spreadsheet, or if there's a way to work past it with this one-time import.

To make a proper start, it would take a lot of work, since all the posts would need to be added in, one at a time, to get the proper relationship between both parties in the trades/sales, with each party.

To do it quick and dirty, it would be grabbing the counts from the tally thread, add in the counts into Column C, add in the user ID of the person with that count in Column A and ignore Column B. This would get the counts inputted, though they wouldn't have any relationship in who sent in the feedback. Much less work, though not as accurate in the bidirectionality of the feedbacks.
 
I understand your idea shrike, but if we are using Unique IDs to generate a FeedBack Score, your method will not cut it. Using the "no user in column b" method will keep the total number of feedback on your feedback screen, but it wont count toward your Feedback Score.

Multple ratings from no user ID has the same effect as multiple ratings from a unique user ID.

If we skip the eBay style unique members feedback, then your method will probably work.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']I understand your idea shrike, but if we are using Unique IDs to generate a FeedBack Score, your method will not cut it. Using the "no user in column b" method will keep the total number of feedback on your feedback screen, but it wont count toward your Feedback Score.

Multple ratings from no user ID has the same effect as multiple ratings from a unique user ID.

If we skip the eBay style unique members feedback, then your method will probably work.[/QUOTE]

Then it sounds like all the posts will have to be gone through and added into the spreadsheet, one post at a time. That's indeed a lot of work.
 
Yup, I don't know if there is a way to avoid that no matter what system we use (that uses Unique member feedback).

If you want, we can add a special field on the User Profiles screen that will contain their previous feedback score. so it looks like this:

New Feedback system score: (5)
Old Feedback system score: (152)

Or we can probably have the old feedback number display on your TraderRating profile screen, so it looks like this:

Member Profile
Feedback Score:3
Positive Feedback:100.0%
Members who left a positive:3
Members who left a negative:0
All positive feedback received:4

Feedback score from old system: 56
 
I personally wouldn't mine the second option, as long as you can see the seperate feedback(s), I could care less about the actual score.

Also I believe we need enforce the whole "whoever has less feedback ships first rule". I know there's no actual way to force people to abide by it, but to have it clearly stated somewhere for all to see could help.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Yup, I don't know if there is a way to avoid that no matter what system we use (that uses Unique member feedback).

If you want, we can add a special field on the User Profiles screen that will contain their previous feedback score. so it looks like this:

New Feedback system score: (5)
Old Feedback system score: (152)

Or we can probably have the old feedback number display on your TraderRating profile screen, so it looks like this:

Member Profile
Feedback Score:3
Positive Feedback:100.0%
Members who left a positive:3
Members who left a negative:0
All positive feedback received:4

Feedback score from old system: 56[/QUOTE]

I think it would be more appropriate to have it on the TraderRating screen, as long as it's not editable by anyone save mods. That way, no one can jack up their numbers on their own. The User Profile might be user-editable, and it's on the honor system there. Would be more appropriate in the TraderRating area, anyway, though I can see where it would go in either spot.

I'm OK with doing it one of the two above ways, and still would be happy to get all the "old" tally ratings into an Excel spreadsheet or some other format, once we draw a line in the sand for stopping feedback in the "old" feedback method. Which makes me wonder what we'd do for trades currently in process when we make the cut. Maybe decide that trades after xx/yy/05 date go under the new feedback method, make one last set of posts into the "old" thread that are before that, and then cut it off and lock it?

[quote name='-Never4ever-']I personally wouldn't mine the second option, as long as you can see the seperate feedback(s), I could care less about the actual score.

Also I believe we need enforce the whole "whoever has less feedback ships first rule". I know there's no actual way to force people to abide by it, but to have it clearly stated somewhere for all to see could help.[/QUOTE]

After a certain point, all the seperate feedbacks become a little bit of overload. Like when you have 269, for example. :D

And yes, I agree 100% that we need to enforce the "lesser feedback ships first". Makes people think a little more closely about the people they trade with. There's ways to force it in the system, though we'd have to build in some eBay-style method with some automation behind it.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']

Member Profile
Feedback Score:3
Positive Feedback:100.0%
Members who left a positive:3
Members who left a negative:0
All positive feedback received:4

Feedback score from old system: 56[/QUOTE]

This looks like a good method. Would this be a big deal to implement?
 
as long as my feedback still remains one of the highest, i dont care how it goes down....but the set-up you have there looks really cool...how any of it will actually work without bogus feedback is another story

ps: the thread title says "fedback" :applause: ;)
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Yup, I don't know if there is a way to avoid that no matter what system we use (that uses Unique member feedback).

If you want, we can add a special field on the User Profiles screen that will contain their previous feedback score. so it looks like this:

New Feedback system score: (5)
Old Feedback system score: (152)

Or we can probably have the old feedback number display on your TraderRating profile screen, so it looks like this:

Member Profile
Feedback Score:3
Positive Feedback:100.0%
Members who left a positive:3
Members who left a negative:0
All positive feedback received:4

Feedback score from old system: 56[/QUOTE]

I don't really like this adjustment; it doesn't really look that good in the long run. Plus I'm still pro unique trades as opposed to unique members. (Even though all my trades have been with unique people.) I would think all you guys that have a huge number of feedback would want the unique trade feedback scores anyways, since I'm sure you guys do a lot of multiple trades with the same user. I mean, it sounds like it's easier to do unique trades than unique members anyways. (Maybe I'm totally not understand what y'all are talking about.)
 
[quote name='The Successful Dropout']uh oh, cheapy has one negative :lol:[/QUOTE]

Weird, his feedback is still 2... the first two feedback from WhipSmartBanky became some separate, dummy user.
 
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']I don't really like this adjustment; it doesn't really look that good in the long run. Plus I'm still pro unique trades as opposed to unique members. (Even though all my trades have been with unique people.) I would think all you guys that have a huge number of feedback would want the unique trade feedback scores anyways, since I'm sure you guys do a lot of multiple trades with the same user. I mean, it sounds like it's easier to do unique trades than unique members anyways. (Maybe I'm totally not understand what y'all are talking about.)[/QUOTE]

The ugly issue is that migrating the old feedback into the new system, with the uniqueness that's being proposed will require going through every post and inputting it into the new feedback system. It's a ridiculously large task.

Either we need to move forward and put the old feedback in as a value for reference, have some person/people do the input of all the old posts, or don't do the unique trades concept.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']The ugly issue is that migrating the old feedback into the new system, with the uniqueness that's being proposed will require going through every post and inputting it into the new feedback system. It's a ridiculously large task.[/QUOTE]
Which uniqueness? I thought if you guys use unique trade feedback, you can avoid all this hassle. From what Cheapy was saying, it sounded like it was only with unique member feedback that you'd have to go through all that trouble? If that's the case, then why not just do unique trade feedback?

Edited to add; NM, I think I don't get this stuff :whistle2:#
 
[quote name='shrike4242']Either we need to move forward and put the old feedback in as a value for reference, have some person/people do the input of all the old posts, or don't do the unique trades concept.[/QUOTE]

Yup, thats pretty much it.
I recommend option one...that way, you can get started using the new system pretty much immediately.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Yup, thats pretty much it.
I recommend option one...that way, you can get started using the new system pretty much immediately.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Yup, thats pretty much it.
I recommend option one...that way, you can get started using the new system pretty much immediately.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Now we just need to figure out the following:

1) When do we do the cut-off for the old system and start new trades in the new system?
2) What do we do with trades currently in process? Do we have them use the old system until they're done, and then do one more update to the old feedback rankings?
3) I'm guessing you'd need the old data as (user ID) / (tally rating), and what format would you need that data in?
 
[quote name='shrike4242']I'm guessing you'd need the old data as (user ID) / (tally rating), and what format would you need that data in?[/QUOTE]If we are going to go with a static field on the TraderRatings screen all I need is the Username and tally rating (any format is fine).

In fact, we can have 2 week (or so) period where we have the users enter in their own old trading tally on their profile, then lock the field so no new entries/changes can be made.

We can always have the old (final) tally list handy just in case there are any issues with less than honest users entering their own old tally.

We can get started using the new system this week, once I get the go ahead from you guys.
 
I like this idea. We should do this. I'm thinking lock the topic as it is now, I'll update it because Brolly couldn't, (he's on vacation), and then all pending trades can wait and be left using the new system.
 
damn, cheapy and shrike, you guys have been working pretty hard today...both of you take a break...now!

im for what you guys agreed upon, the old value being part of the new system rather than importing feedback...because im pretty lazy.

[quote name='CheapyD']This is the author's plan for the update to Trader Ratings:
I think the 3rd thing on the list is what you are talking about.

Plans For Future Releases:
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
• rebuttal / followup comments
• item description (possibly instead of thread url)
• button on thread that buyer/seller clicks to tie the transaction to two people
[/QUOTE]
i believe the 3rd point was what i was mentioning, would that be a required step, or more of an option? because imo it has to be required.

anyways, i think you guys are pretty close to decided, and im very happy with the way things seem to be going...i hope anyone with problems really does bring them up now...
 
As the last tracking post was done on page 29, we're a couple of pages overdue for doing the feedback tally anyway.

If we lock it now, it'll be eight pages of updates that need to get done, and either Trakan or I can do it, though he'd need to be the one to lock it, once the tracking post is dropped.

Brolly already asked me if I could do the update in his stead, so I'm cool with doing it, though someone else (Trakan?) would need to post it into the tally thread. Once it's posted, we lock that thread.

Make the 2 week period end the 2nd Friday after the last tally update is done (so, if this week, we make it the 15th), then lock the record in the user's profile. What would we do for those that are gone and don't show up until after the 15th?

As I only have a few things truly up in the air at the moment (two pending feedback, two in transit to the other side), I'm OK with switching over this week. Ending on 269 feedback in the old system is an amusing number to have posted up there. :D Perfect excuse to take a break after the new system is going and let the stuff I have in process finish up. That break in trading I keep talking about. :roll:

Yes, punq, Cheapy, myself and some other have been busy trying to hash this out, as Cheapy mentioned earlier in the thread, not many people have been putting in their $0.02 in for this new change. As numerous CAGs come to me for help/advice/assistance/whatever, in regard to trades, it's in my best interest, as well as for the other CAGs, that I put my input in the process. Someone has to do it, after all. :D
 
[quote name='punqsux']damn, cheapy and shrike, you guys have been working pretty hard today...both of you take a break...now![/QUOTE]Understatement of the year...and you can replace "today' with "last week"

[quote name='punqsux']
i believe the 3rd point was what i was mentioning, would that be a required step, or more of an option? because imo it has to be required.[/QUOTE]Let's see how its implemented in the next version before we decide on that one.

So what did you think of my idea letting the users enter in their own old feedback score?
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Understatement of the year...and you can replace "today' with "last week"

Let's see how its implemented in the next version before we decide on that one.

So what did you think of my idea letting the users enter in their own old feedback score?[/QUOTE]

Yes, indeed, Cheapy has been working far harder than I've been today on this, I'm just playing sounding board. :D All the credit goes to him for the real work.

It's a nice idea, as long as someone eyeballs it after the fact and "fixes" any "mistakes". Puts the burden of work on the user to put their own up.
 
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