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2012 MLB Discussion


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#691 n8rockerasu

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:23 PM

A-Rod still carried them to the 2009 World Series, so you can't take that away from him.


He shined that year, but he had an incredible supporting cast as well. The pitching was outstanding that year, and Matsui was insane in those playoffs as well.

A great example of the differences between A-Rod and Jeter was exactly what transpired in the 9th inning last night. Jeter comes up with a runner on 1st, nobody out, with the Yankees ahead by one. Despite being the Yankees best hitter all season, he comes up looking to bunt, fouling the first pitch off. He takes the next pitch, getting to a 1-1 count, where a hit and run is called. Jeter fights off an inside pitch and fists it through the right side of the infield, allowing Ibanez to get to 3rd easily. That's situational hitting and being a team player.

A-Rod comes up a batter later, with runners on 1st and 2nd, still with nobody out, and strikes out on four pitches. The next batter, Robinson Cano, doubles. And the batter after that, Nick Swisher, hits a sac fly. Everybody is just doing their part to move the line forward except Alex. Yes, I get that A-Rod is/was a power hitter. But he's not going to hit home runs TRYING to hit home runs. He just has a horrible approach at the plate, and has for the past 3+ years.

He overthinks everything he does and just completely collapses under pressure. To me, the worst thing that ever happened to A-Rod was when he bought into his own hype. He was an incredible player back when he actually worked for it and was having fun playing the game. I feel like since that Texas contract came, he just turned into a completely different person. I doubt he even recognizes himself anymore.

#692 GhostShark

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

Who was he going to play instead of Young? Moreland and Napoli were out for almost 3 months combined.

He went with Holland because he knew he needed him in the next round. It didn't work out but I understand the move. Wash wanted to give the kid a shot at redemption.

We aren't even having a discussion about this if the pitching staff as a whole played well in the world series. Except for Lewis no one pitched all that well in both series. Last year the bullpen and Wilson were the reason they lost. The year before Wilson and Lee came up small. They also didn't hit for shit in 2010.


By having a -1.4 WAR, Wash could have started anybody, and it would have been a success. I'm not saying that Mike Young should have been benched every game, but it would have been more logical to start Profar or Olt over him (both in the field and at DH). There were several times during the year that PADMY was at third and second, and he should never, ever be on the field. Even in his prime, his glovework was mediocre.

And on Holland, is that part of the game time to get "redemption" for Holland? He was terrible inconsistent at the end of year, especially getting lefties out. You had Kirkman and Uehara in the bullpen, both had been getting lefties out far more consistently than Holland, and both were used to it. Hell, even Ross despite his recent struggles would've been a more logical choice. Just because you have starters available in an all-or-nothing game doesn't mean that you HAVE to use them.

Wash's most alluring fact has always been his ability to motivate the players, and you saw absolutely none of that down the stretch.

And I am not meaning to sound like this is all PADMY and Holland's fault, either. Kinsler (over the last few weeks) was barely over the Mendoza line, and his road numbers, defensive player and baserunning were all pretty bad, and this is a guy that is owned near 70 million more dollars from the Rangers. Cruz even had a down season, but unlike PADMY, he at least had some semblence of a power stroke throughout the season.

Sorry, guys. Didn't mean to go on ranting about a team not even in it. If it is any consoloation, I would really like to see the Reds win it all this year. They remind me a lot of the Rangers 2010 and 2011 teams.
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#693 Feeding the Abscess

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:37 PM

These post season numbers look bad to you?

.308 .374 .466
.273 .383 .490

Jeter will be in the top 5 best SS of all time when his career is over.


Never said Jeter was a bad player. He's been at least above average in every season in his career, oftentimes much better than that. He's just not in A-Rod's class.

To the rest:

Leverage Index and Clutch rating are measurements of pressure situations (including late inning ABs). So aside from watching (mostly) tiny sample sizes of single postseasons, I also look at statistics to get an idea of how a player produces.
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#694 CaseyRyback

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:04 PM

By having a -1.4 WAR, Wash could have started anybody, and it would have been a success. I'm not saying that Mike Young should have been benched every game, but it would have been more logical to start Profar or Olt over him (both in the field and at DH). There were several times during the year that PADMY was at third and second, and he should never, ever be on the field. Even in his prime, his glovework was mediocre.

And on Holland, is that part of the game time to get "redemption" for Holland? He was terrible inconsistent at the end of year, especially getting lefties out. You had Kirkman and Uehara in the bullpen, both had been getting lefties out far more consistently than Holland, and both were used to it. Hell, even Ross despite his recent struggles would've been a more logical choice. Just because you have starters available in an all-or-nothing game doesn't mean that you HAVE to use them.

Wash's most alluring fact has always been his ability to motivate the players, and you saw absolutely none of that down the stretch.

And I am not meaning to sound like this is all PADMY and Holland's fault, either. Kinsler (over the last few weeks) was barely over the Mendoza line, and his road numbers, defensive player and baserunning were all pretty bad, and this is a guy that is owned near 70 million more dollars from the Rangers. Cruz even had a down season, but unlike PADMY, he at least had some semblence of a power stroke throughout the season.

Sorry, guys. Didn't mean to go on ranting about a team not even in it. If it is any consoloation, I would really like to see the Reds win it all this year. They remind me a lot of the Rangers 2010 and 2011 teams.


Your argument against Mike Young makes no sense. You want them to replace Young with a guy on a gimped foot and/or a September callup. If you really think a guy with plantar fascitis can play the field you are delusional. I fully understand that Young sucked for much of the season, but he played fine down the stretch. I mean Fuck he was the only one who hit against the O's. Also like I said earlier, who was going to play in his place?

Holland may not have been my choice, but like I said I understand the decision. Aside from Koji everyone in the pen has stunk as of late. Not only do I think Wash wanted to give Holland a shot to make amends for what happened, but I also think he wanted to put someone in who could possibly give him multiple innings. No Mike Adams means he needed someone to pitch in that 8th inning role and he probably wanted to slot Koji there.

Praise the front office all you want, but they got beat in a 1 game playoff by a team chocked full of former Rangers, many of which played important roles. If they hadn't given up on Davis they wouldn't be sitting home right now.

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#695 Arikado

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:14 PM

Your argument against Mike Young makes no sense. You want them to replace Young with a guy on a gimped foot and/or a September callup. If you really think a guy with plantar fascitis can play the field you are delusional. I fully understand that Young sucked for much of the season, but he played fine down the stretch. I mean Fuck he was the only one who hit against the O's. Also like I said earlier, who was going to play in his place?

Holland may not have been my choice, but like I said I understand the decision. Aside from Koji everyone in the pen has stunk as of late. Not only do I think Wash wanted to give Holland a shot to make amends for what happened, but I also think he wanted to put someone in who could possibly give him multiple innings. No Mike Adams means he needed someone to pitch in that 8th inning role and he probably wanted to slot Koji there.

Praise the front office all you want, but they got beat in a 1 game playoff by a team chocked full of former Rangers, many of which played important roles. If they hadn't given up on Davis they wouldn't be sitting home right now.


A guy with a gimped foot is still better than Mike "The Butcher" Young in the field. Snyder could have also played first base while Nap and Moreland were hurt. Yeah, MY played alright down the stretch, but how about the rest of the season? He was one of the worst players in the league, yet Ron kept sticking his awful glove on the field and hitting him in the 3, 5, or 6 hole. Games in April matter just as much as they do in September. A decent stretch run doesn't excuse Mike Young from criticism for an awful, awful season.

Make amends? You're fighting to keep your season alive. It isn't the time to "make amends" and make everyone feel better, you go to a guy that's pitched out of the pen all year to get you out of a jam. Ross or Koji would have been an infinitely better choice. Hell, I would have even gone with Kirkman before I went with Holland.

The front office called up Olt and Profar. Wash never played them. Also, guess what? If they hadn't given up Davis, they wouldn't have Koji, who pitched some huge innings for them down the stretch. Without him, it's possible they don't even claim a wild card spot.

And come on, Davis was just not working out here. He's had a solid season with Baltimore. The change of scenery did him well, but don't act like he's the reason this year's Rangers team failed.
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#696 GhostShark

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:16 PM

So, Chris Davis is the sole reason for them losing against the O's by your proxy? That makes no sense. He had over two seasons (of many, many strikeouts) to prove his worth, and he didn't. And just cause he found the longball swing this season in Baltimore, doesn't necessarily mean that is what is to be expected of him for the rest of his career.

And of course, I said both Olt and Profar, but you focused on just Olt, so that is cool. But the real problem here is that Young should have never been in the field in the first place. Just by having him play a position, the team is fighting at a disadvantage. Also, playing "fine" down the stretch doesn't make-up for the negative WAR, essentially costing the Rangers 1-2 games and several million dollars. Let's not even get into how he is making upwards of 15 million next year.

And yes, they did lose in a one game playoff, but is that blame to be put on JD and the front office? JD doesn't control putting PADMY at first base (an error on the first batter that led to an unearned run), he doesn't control Wash pulling Darvish at 91 pitches for a shaky, inconsistent Holland (who might I remind you that he sucks in relief apperances), nor does he control the complete lack of hitting the team showed down the stretch (something neither Washington nor Coolbaugh tried to fix.)
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#697 CaseyRyback

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:49 PM

So, Chris Davis is the sole reason for them losing against the O's by your proxy? That makes no sense. He had over two seasons (of many, many strikeouts) to prove his worth, and he didn't. And just cause he found the longball swing this season in Baltimore, doesn't necessarily mean that is what is to be expected of him for the rest of his career.

And of course, I said both Olt and Profar, but you focused on just Olt, so that is cool. But the real problem here is that Young should have never been in the field in the first place. Just by having him play a position, the team is fighting at a disadvantage. Also, playing "fine" down the stretch doesn't make-up for the negative WAR, essentially costing the Rangers 1-2 games and several million dollars. Let's not even get into how he is making upwards of 15 million next year.

And yes, they did lose in a one game playoff, but is that blame to be put on JD and the front office? JD doesn't control putting PADMY at first base (an error on the first batter that led to an unearned run), he doesn't control Wash pulling Darvish at 91 pitches for a shaky, inconsistent Holland (who might I remind you that he sucks in relief apperances), nor does he control the complete lack of hitting the team showed down the stretch (something neither Washington nor Coolbaugh tried to fix.)


The argument regarding Davis is more an argument about player development. Maybe there is a need for stronger bench coaches. Why are O'Day, Hunter, and Davis all over contributing on the O's and not here in Texas? Assets like that would have negated the need to play a one game playoff.

I did focus on Olt because you keep making an illogical argument. You keep saying Young shouldn't have played and reference the negative WAR, but don't point out any logical choices to replace him. Your main point is using the negative WAR, which is a cumulative stat over the course of the year. Your key contention is that a person physically unable to play in the field should have replaced him and a September callup should have replaced him. That makes no sense. A baseball season starts in April. Also lets point out that the guy hit .338 last year and knocked in 108. If you are a manager you are inclined to think that a player who has continually produced numbers in that range is going to continue to do so.


Kado, do you remember what Koji did last year? He might have been solid this year, but lets not ignore the fact that he took a five gallon gas can out to the mound and torched the shit out of that mother fucker. He couldn't get out shit last year and every ball left the yard. They could have adjusted and gotten another quality arm last offseason. If he was such a good pickup he would have been able to make it on the WS roster.


If we are giving the front office a pass, then can you guys give me a good reason why Daniels did not find a quality fifth starter? 10 straight losses out of the 5 hole down the stretch. Daniels picked up Oswalt, Dempster, and Soto over the course of the year and none of them worked out. Fuck if Soto is behind the plate Jim Thome and David Ortiz should have the green light because that mother fucker ain't throwing out anybody. At one point he was 1 for 25 in throwing people out. That's an Ace fucking catcher right there. .200 average and can't throw out a fucking runner. Real winner.


With all that said, none of us are even arguing if the injury bug doesn't bite as bad as it did. Lewis and Feliz going down was a killer.

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#698 Arikado

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:13 PM

*snip*


Player development is one of the strongest points of the Texas Rangers system. It's one of the reasons the farm system is consistently ranked high. As for those ex-Rangers you listed: O'Day has had a bounceback year for the Orioles. He was let go because he sucked with Texas last year after a solid 2010. With Koji and Adams coming back, he was expendable. Hunter has sucked for the Orioles this year. He's been a spot starter and a mop-up guy and has a -0.4 WAR to show for it. Davis has finally busted out, showing the power consistently we always knew he had while falling on the uptick of the BABIP gods. He's really the main guy that has contributed to Baltimore, but again, did you really want to see him try to figure it out here for another year, flailing away and being outmatched every at bat? I think you just chalk it up to him being one of those "change of scenery" guys.

I know the Olt/MY thing isn't directed at me, but I'm gonna chime in a bit. MY also beat balls into the dirt all season and showed almost no power. He wasn't breaking out of his slump and he showed no signs of it. At some point, it should have been clear that Michael Young was not going to hit his way out of it. It was obvious his decline was hitting and hitting him hard, yet he continued to get at bats while guys like Olt (pre-injury) and Profar sat on the bench. MY should have only been in the lineup against lefties, where he had a decent slash line. Like I said, Snyder could have gotten a look at first while Napoli and Moreland were on the DL.

Last year, Koji shit the bed at the worst possible time, but that was a small sample size. You ride the hot hands in the postseason. His obviously wasn't very hot. His 2010 and 2011 with Baltimore were great, and after he came off the DL this year, he was back to his old form as one of the best relievers in the league. I'm hoping he can be brought back on a one or two year deal, personally.

JD tried to find a fix for the five spot. Oswalt (which was a Nolan signing if the media is to be believed) didn't get it done. Dempster didn't get it done against good teams. Perez wasn't ready for the show. I didn't mind the Soto pickup... he's basically Torrealba with better potential upside. Don't get me wrong, he sucked for the most part, but I don't think the move was absolutely terrible. Besides, NO catcher was throwing anyone out, mostly because the starting pitching staff was so easy to run on.

Like you said, there wouldn't have even been a need to plug that fifth hole if Colby and Nefti don't get hurt. Those two injuries were killers.
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#699 CaseyRyback

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:26 PM

My talk about Hunter was not brought up regarding his starting but he has been fairly solid in the pen with that 100 mile heater.

I am not disagreeing completely with you guys on Young. My main problem with the argument is that you got to have someone to plug in for him. Vets are going to get the benefit of the doubt over rookies especially in the midst of a pennant race. With that said I did like what Snyder did when he was up and it would have been fine by me to see more of him.

I thinly it all boils down to the fact that someone has to eat the blame for what happened. I am still in disbelief. This goes up there with the 07 Mavs as a what the Fuck happened season.

#700 sendme

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:48 PM

I just got off work and found out the score of the Cards game. I guess they had their asses chewed out last night with today's game ending in 8-3. Really wish I could have watched the last two games.
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#701 pitfallharry219

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:50 PM

I just got off work and found out the score of the Cards game. I guess they had their asses chewed out last night with today's game ending in 8-3. Really wish I could have watched the last two games.


The game isn't over yet. It's 11-4 now.

#702 Feeding the Abscess

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:32 AM

Why the hate on Koji? His WHIP with Texas last season was 0.78. He was blown up in the postseason, but he faced all of 11 batters.
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#703 GhostShark

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:11 AM

*snip*


I clearly stated Olt or Profar should have replaced him if he were in the field, more so Profar/Snyder/Napoli/Moreland after the Olt injury. You're acting like I ONLY said Olt, something I did not. Sure the arguement turned into that, but I am not saying just Olt.

I would also like to point out that last years stats mean nothing. You used Koji as an example, but his stats between this year and last year are drastically different. And for the better part of this year he has been outstanding. Sure Mike Young had a good season last year, but his WAR dropped over 3 from last year. That is a lot more than just a down year. So by that proxy, his relatively decent season last year should have no bearing on if he played or not this year, especially when he was beating the Fuck out of balls into the ground like Greg Maddux was on the mound for all his ABs. But there were times to bench him a few games, and let Olt get more than 4 ABs a week before his injury. And yet, there was Wash, sticking buy his guy. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with Wash ignoring how awful Young was. This is a more a problem on Wash's parts than Mike's, because he tried to get it working, but when you get old, you get old.

I would also like to toss some in about Soto, as well. Like Kado said, I like him over Torreable, though not a regular starter. One of the key reasons he gave up so many SBs was his starters. Darvish (though he is learning), Dempster, Harrison, and Feldman aren't exactly quick to the plate, nor do they have overly exceptional moves to first to keep quicker runners honest. Plus, his catcher's ERA with Darvish is pretty good.

But yes, like you said, it was tough having Feliz and Lewis gone for the year. And it sucks they won't be back for the start of the season. But hey, at least Perez will be ready.
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#704 bigdaddybruce44

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:04 AM

Another big performance by A-Rod...

#705 Ugamer_X

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:05 AM

Nice clutch whiff by A-Rod.

#706 renique46

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:08 AM

"That is a terrible headline. A-Rod would never make it in the KKK. To be a member in good standing you have to be able to participate in their rallies."

:lol:


#707 KingBroly

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:10 PM

By the way, I'm going to Games 3 and 4 in Washington. Anyone else going?
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#708 shrike4242

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

The game isn't over yet. It's 11-4 now.

Ended up finishing at 12-4 for a St. Louis win.

#709 n8rockerasu

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:04 PM

Another big performance by A-Rod...


But, but...his Postseason UTI numbers are off the charts!!!

Seriously, batting him in the #3 spot is ridiculous at this point. I'd rather see Russell Martin there.

#710 tonyv4

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:27 PM

Hope the A's can pull off 3 in a row but I know how difficult it will be especially game 5 with Verlander pitching if they get there.

#711 bigdaddybruce44

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:15 PM

But, but...his Postseason UTI numbers are off the charts!!!

Seriously, batting him in the #3 spot is ridiculous at this point. I'd rather see Russell Martin there.


All I hear on the radio is, "Well, there's no one else to bat in the 3 hole!!!" Um...you switch Jeter and Ichiro (so you don't have 2 lefties in a row) and bat Cano 3rd. Tex has actually hit the ball well this series, so you move him into the clean-up spot and bat A-Rod 5th. I know we as fans can tend to overreact, but the reality is, A-Rod has had nothing but awful at-bats, and he cannot catch up to a fastball to save his life.

EDIT: Excuse me, he did have a good at-bat in the first inning. He smoked that ball up the middle. Doesn't change the fact that he struck out 5 times in 9 at-bats and hasn't look comfortable at all.

#712 kill3r7

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:46 PM

All I hear on the radio is, "Well, there's no one else to bat in the 3 hole!!!" Um...you switch Jeter and Ichiro (so you don't have 2 lefties in a row) and bat Cano 3rd. Tex has actually hit the ball well this series, so you move him into the clean-up spot and bat A-Rod 5th. I know we as fans can tend to overreact, but the reality is, A-Rod has had nothing but awful at-bats, and he cannot catch up to a fastball to save his life.

EDIT: Excuse me, he did have a good at-bat in the first inning. He smoked that ball up the middle. Doesn't change the fact that he struck out 5 times in 9 at-bats and hasn't look comfortable at all.


The lineup unfortunately doesn't have much flexibility which has been an issue with the Yankees the last couple of years. Cano needs to catch fire. Moving Arod down in the lineup won't help. If he can't hit out of the three hole with that kind of protection he just can't hit period. My lineup would be Ichiro, Jeter, Cano, Teixeira, Granderson, Arod, Swisher, Martin and DH. Depending on who's DHing you can switch the spot in the lineup with Granderson.

#713 Icegaryen

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:48 PM

The lineup unfortunately doesn't have much flexibility which has been an issue with the Yankees the last couple of years. Cano needs to catch fire. Moving Arod down in the lineup won't help. If he can't hit out of the three hole with that kind of protection he just can't hit period. My lineup would be Ichiro, Jeter, Cano, Teixeira, Granderson, Arod, Swisher, Martin and DH. Depending on who's DHing you can switch the spot in the lineup with Granderson.


Agreed. Granderson should be hitting 9th against LHP

#714 pitfallharry219

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:47 AM

I was a little worried about Chapman after his shaky performance in Game 1, but he's got the good stuff tonight, though I suppose no pressure vs a tied game in the 9th has something to do with it.

#715 KingBroly

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:42 PM

Fucking Nootinals.
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#716 Icegaryen

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:43 AM

Fuck Granderson and his 3 pitch strike outs. Can't believe he turned into Dunn lite.

#717 KillerRamen

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:13 AM

The Cardinals game was pretty awesome today! I was so glad that I was able to watch it being a noon game and all! :bouncy:
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#718 kill3r7

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:37 AM

Fuck Granderson and his 3 pitch strike outs. Can't believe he turned into Dunn lite.


Feast or famine with him this year. Hopefully he'll break through.

#719 chuckie88

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:32 AM

Tigers just got a run in the third, it would be nice to close this out tonight.
Going into a winner take all game five isn't appealing. Go Tigers!
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#720 renique46

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:15 AM

Looks like Orioles pulled another Baltimore Ravens and choked another playoff game down the drain like idiots :applause:. They must feel real stupid by now knowing this series should have been over by now and thus they should be.