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Black Teen Shot, Killed By Neighborhood Watch


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#601 Purple Flames

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:19 PM

Who actually thinks he isn't guilty though? Dude left his car, followed a kid, and shot him. It doesn't get anymore clear cut than that. The only issue people differ on is if it was a hate crime.


You'd be suprised. I got into it yesterday with a guy who seems the think that all of the evidence against Zimmerman isn't evidence at all and played the tried and true "wait until all of the facts come through" card, which just goes to show how dense some people choose to be on matters such as this.

#602 dohdough

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:56 PM

So are you saying dohdough is doing the same thing? Because I think we all know that DD is just throwing shit at a wall like you say.
It is blatant racism here (dd's case) that I see coupled with obsession that isn't even trying to be disguised.

Oops I know you were being subtle but hey say it how it is.

HAAHAHAH....wow! It's almost if I called this more than two weeks ago!

I have not had a chance to go through all the posts yet but I hope you got lambasted for this.

First the "white guy" statement and second the "jumping to conclusions" thing.
Your post alone proves we DO NOT live in a post-racial society as the first thing you did (here anyway) is make it a racial thing.

HAHAHA...you want to use a variant on the "you're the REAL racist for seeing/talking about race" argument? Oh man...you're too fuckin much.

I have not watched the video so possibly you got you racist initial view from that? Was there proof on the date of your post that anything about this was racist? From the police department or the shooter?

So if it wasn't Martin being black, are you saying that it's his hoodie that made him suspicious? And if it was because Zimmerman didn't recognize him, does Zimmerman stalk everyone he sees that comes close to his neighborhood?

I should really stop because I can only deal with so many ingrates at a time.


Now if only you didn't delete all your posts, so you could hide behind the veneer of there not being any proof. Oh wai...:rofl:

#603 irideabike

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:57 PM

Yep in the court of public opinion you will get all types. There are always ones that play Race cards and guilty cards, ufo cards, innocent cards...oops did I say that? Even I am guilty of thinking zimmerman is guilty but with failure tried to qualify it with.."to the total extent exactly I am not sure yet". Afterall in America we are all guilty until proven innocent.

Other than the fact that Zimmerman left his car, then shot him in the ensuing scuffle. There really isn't anything to argue. He should have never left his car, and then Trayvon wouldn't be dead and he wouldn't be in the mess that he is.

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#604 irideabike

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:59 PM

What I quoted was Pliskin101, apparently he deleted his post before I posted.

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

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#605 mykevermin

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:02 PM

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it's time to not even engage with plisken101.

Come along, it's a fun time on the ignorewagon, folks.
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#606 dohdough

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:07 PM

All the bickering aside, since this is going to trial I hope that we can all accept that the trial will be handled fairly, uncover evidence, and come to a just conclusion.

The reality is that few people who have decided Zimmerman is guilty or not guilty will change their minds as the result of the trial (those who do not get a favorable outcome will fall back on the usual tropes and denials)...but I can be hopeful, right?

2nd degree murder is minimum 25 to life and manslaughter is minimum 16 years both with no possibility of parole as Florida got rid of that. The only good thing about going to trial is having all the facts come out about the injuries. As for a just conclusion, the only thing I can say about it is that at least he went throught the system. Other than that, I don't have faith in the system being just.

Who actually thinks he isn't guilty though? Dude left his car, followed a kid, and shot him. It doesn't get anymore clear cut than that. The only issue people differ on is if it was a hate crime.

You'd be surprised at how many people think Martin was the aggressor and deserved to be shot for "look like a thug; get treated like a thug," which is code for N****rs DIE!!!! If you have the stomach, you should read the comments on some articles.

#607 GBAstar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

2nd degree murder is minimum 25 to life and manslaughter is minimum 16 years both with no possibility of parole as Florida got rid of that. The only good thing about going to trial is having all the facts come out about the injuries. As for a just conclusion, the only thing I can say about it is that at least he went throught the system. Other than that, I don't have faith in the system being just.


You'd be surprised at how many people think Martin was the aggressor and deserved to be shot for "look like a thug; get treated like a thug," which is code for N****rs DIE!!!! If you have the stomach, you should read the comments on some articles.



Jeez.. I hope I don't fall into that catagory!

Nothing is more depressing then reading comments on a yahoo! article or a youtube video... I'll give you that.

While I'm not sure why it bothered me so much I just wish from Day 1 there had been a more accurate reporting of the incidents AND the people involved from both sides with less outrage and outcry.

Now that he has been officially charged with 2nd Degree Murder (I think it would have been more fitting and more likely for a conviction if charged with manslaughter) where do you stand dohdough?

Do you think this or any charge for that matter would have come WITHOUT the parents and public outcry?

If he walks on the murder 2 charge will that be the end of it?

^ Please don't take those at bait; just truly curious

IMO I don't think he should be charged with murder 2 but a lesser manslaughter charged--but honestly I'm not too concerned with the court outcome... that's more icing on the cake if you will.

What I'd like to see come from this is an impact on the laws that allow someone like Zimmerman to openly carry a gun and such silly stand your ground laws where there is such open interpretation on what constitues being "threatened"

#608 dmaul1114

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:58 PM

Other than the fact that Zimmerman left his car, then shot him in the ensuing scuffle. There really isn't anything to argue. He should have never left his car, and then Trayvon wouldn't be dead and he wouldn't be in the mess that he is.


Yep, and that's why he got the murder 2 charge rather than manslaughter.

That and it gives them leeway to try to get him to take a plea deal for manslaughter instead of the murder 2.

#609 dohdough

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

Jeez.. I hope I don't fall into that catagory!

Nothing is more depressing then reading comments on a yahoo! article or a youtube video... I'll give you that.

While I'm not sure why it bothered me so much I just wish from Day 1 there had been a more accurate reporting of the incidents AND the people involved from both sides with less outrage and outcry.

There wouldn't have been that much of an outcry if the higher-ups didn't decide to sweep it underthe rug and let this guy walk against the recommendation of the lead investigator, police didn't tamper/coerce witness testimony, police chief didn't make stupid comments, didn't lie to Martin's family about Zimmerman's criminal history, and a whole slew of other things that lead to this perfect storm of obfuscation. And you're still comparing public outrage to get the wheels of the justice system moving on Zimmerman to those that think Martin deserved to get shot. That shit is not even close to being equivalent.

Now that he has been officially charged with 2nd Degree Murder (I think it would have been more fitting and more likely for a conviction if charged with manslaughter) where do you stand dohdough?


Best case scenario, he plea bargains down to manslaughter(there's no involuntary/voluntary difference in Florida). Worse case scenario, he walks out not-guilty. As for what I think is going to happen, I call hung jury and he walks.

Do you think this or any charge for that matter would have come WITHOUT the parents and public outcry?

Of course not. The state DA that was in charge of the case told them to drop it within a week.

If he walks on the murder 2 charge will that be the end of it?

Depends.

^ Please don't take those at bait; just truly curious

IMO I don't think he should be charged with murder 2 but a lesser manslaughter charged--but honestly I'm not too concerned with the court outcome... that's more icing on the cake if you will.

How's that icing on the cake? Getting him arrested and answering in court is merely prepping the ingredients.

What I'd like to see come from this is an impact on the laws that allow someone like Zimmerman to openly carry a gun and such silly stand your ground laws where there is such open interpretation on what constitues being "threatened"

I'll agree with you here, but the really US needs to address the issue of race.

#610 irideabike

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:36 PM

Pliskin101, is Trayvon dead?

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

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#611 nasum

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:37 PM

You are a frickin JOKE!!!


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Ok, at least you can be right about something now...

There's a story on yahoo right now about whether or not GZ is actually safer in jail than wherever he was hiding. How much you want to be that he's in solitary just to keep him away from others?
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#612 dohdough

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:40 PM

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Ok, at least you can be right about something now...

There's a story on yahoo right now about whether or not GZ is actually safer in jail than wherever he was hiding. How much you want to be that he's in solitary just to keep him away from others?

There is no way in hell this guy isn't in his own cell. Any time he spends incarcerated will be segregated from gen pop. Fucking yahoo amirite? LOLZ

#613 Clak

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:39 PM

So on Talk of the Nation they're discussing this. Before this actually goes to trial a judge has to decide whether or not the stand your ground law applies here, what that hinges on is basically who the aggressor was. Apparently that was one of the big things that was changed in Florida, before a jury would have determined that, not a judge. One of the gentlemen on the show seems to think that Zimmerman wasn't acting aggressive, saying that following and pursuing someone isn't an aggressive act. That even if he grabbed Martin and demanded to know what he was doing, that isn't an aggressive act. That it's perfectly fine to track someone and basically interrogate them about why they're there in the neighborhood.

I don't know about any of you, but if someone was following me as I walked through a neighborhood, I'd fell threatened, and I think most people would. In fact if that had been me I probably would have called the police and reported someone following me.
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#614 IAmTheCheapestGamer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 07:39 PM

HA!!! :applause:

Dude I have been saying this for YEARS. I call it subtle racism and its the number 1 problem in America and the root of MOST race tension. I am a black 6 foot 1 230 pound solid muscle guy from the inner city of Detroit...do you think I give a shit about a guy in a cloak calling me boy? Even if you did take me out half my old block would show up with techs and spray everyone....people are not really running from overtly racist people anymore especially here in America.

What does scare me...is the people who say..."I have no problem with anyone I have plenty of Muslim (I know its not a race) friends" but they damn sure dont want they daughter coming home with one. Its also not limited too just race...I see and hear a ton of "I love everyone Jesus preaches love....*whisper* did you see this fucking Catholics? Going to hell...all of them"

Its amazing to see how many people are racist as hell when push comes to shove. You took some Spanish classes in college went on that mission trip to build a church down there, you got yourself a Dos Santos soccer jersey, even have a couple Mexican friends......but the day you hear some wetback is plowing your sister you want to send all back on donkeys.

You basically set up your kids for life to be predisposed to not liking a certain group of people. The worst part is that these people have NO IDEA.

Actually I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any friends who are anything other than caucasian/white. That is, unless the one gaming rep at BB counts as a friend. It comes down to trust issues with me. It takes a LOT for me to even consider having someone as a friend due to all of the times people I thought were friends of mine who turned into backstabbing assholes.

As for not liking certain groups of people, the only folks I may have a dislike of are non English speakers. But only because they can't understand when I say 'excuse me' to try getting by them in a store. And no, I'm not about to learn THEIR language just so I can tell them to get outta my way in a store. Call it ignorant or whatever you want to, but if you immigrated here for a better life then you should assimilate and not expect everyone else to kowtow to you.

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#615 4thHorseman

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:57 PM

As for not liking certain groups of people, the only folks I may have a dislike of are non English speakers. But only because they can't understand when I say 'excuse me' to try getting by them in a store. And no, I'm not about to learn THEIR language just so I can tell them to get outta my way in a store. Call it ignorant or whatever you want to, but if you immigrated here for a better life then you should assimilate and not expect everyone else to kowtow to you.


The things that bother me the most are probably the most stereotypical things people of a certain race do. But it's not just that race, I see people of every race do it. Doesn't matter what race they are, it just bugs the shit out of me. Like people who have baggy pants that they constantly pull up or have to hold on to while running. Just want to smack the piss out of them. Get some damn pants that fit!

Regarding the speaking english thing, but as someone who does customer service and speaks with people from most states in the US, this is something I think mostly spanish speaking people do. I've never had a german, italian, french, or asian person ask if I speak their language, but we use an interpretation service solely for spanish speakers. Which is fine, whatever. My complaint is they have a kid who clearly has English as their first language. Meaning they've probably been in the US long enough that they should know at least some basic language beyond "Speak spanish?"

#616 GBAstar

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:52 AM

Edit: Nevermind... read way too much into it.

#617 GBAstar

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

Are you smarter then Mike Tyson?

It's a disgrace that man hasn't been dragged out of his house and tied to a car and taken away. That's the only kind of retribution that people like that understand. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet. Forget about him being arrested--the fact that he hasn't been shot yet is a disgrace. That's how I feel personally about it."


Full Story


I got a chuckle out of how the article ended (typical grade A Reporting):

In 1992, Tyson was convicted of raping Desiree Washington, a beauty pageant contestant, and served three years in prison.


Oh well. Don't worry if you didn't enjoy the article there are 19,000+ "well-informed" comments you can read through to wet your appetite

#618 dohdough

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:12 PM

Are you smarter then Mike Tyson?

It's a disgrace that man hasn't been dragged out of his house and tied to a car and taken away. That's the only kind of retribution that people like that understand. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet. Forget about him being arrested--the fact that he hasn't been shot yet is a disgrace. That's how I feel personally about it."


Full Story


I got a chuckle out of how the article ended (typical grade A Reporting):

In 1992, Tyson was convicted of raping Desiree Washington, a beauty pageant contestant, and served three years in prison.


Oh well. Don't worry if you didn't enjoy the article there are 19,000+ "well-informed" comments you can read through to wet your appetite

Playing troll again? How about some opinions from some neo-Nazi's to balance that shit out.:roll:

And oh hey look! Here's a case where the shooter was black and the victim was white:
http://www.salon.com...ails/singleton/

#619 GBAstar

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:15 PM

Playing troll again? How about some opinions from some neo-Nazi's to balance that shit out.:roll:

And oh hey look! Here's a case where the shooter was black and the victim was white:
http://www.salon.com...ails/singleton/



If I'm trolling it is only against yahoo! news and perhaps Mike Tyson. Unless convicted rapists and other criminals are the go to spokes people for the black community

#620 GBAstar

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

Playing troll again? How about some opinions from some neo-Nazi's to balance that shit out.:roll:

And oh hey look! Here's a case where the shooter was black and the victim was white:
http://www.salon.com...ails/singleton/



You might want to research that a little more...

from the case file:

On the way back he [McNeil] reported to an emergency 911 operator that a man was on his property and had pulled a knife on his son.   Moments later, McNeil told the operator, “I'm at the property now ․ and there's the builder and I may get ready to whip his ass right now. So get the cops here now.”   As McNeil was pulling into his driveway, he retrieved an automatic handgun from his car's glove compartment, removed it from its case, and loaded it with ammunition.

Epp was in the yard between McNeil's house and the one next door and walking toward McNeil.   McNeil continued to back up with his hands pointed toward the ground and said “Back up, I am not playing with you.”   Epp increased his speed toward McNeil and McNeil raised his gun and fired at Epp's head.   Epp's hands were at his sides, and the eyewitness did not see him raise his hands or see any weapons in his hands.

If you want to read the actual events you can here:

http://caselaw.findl...rt/1418360.html


While I don't agree with the verdict it sounds to me like his comments to the 911 operator could be proved that McNeil was ready to take preemptive action regardless.

Also did this happen in Florida or Georgia?

#621 GBAstar

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:29 PM

and it gets better:

The evidence was sufficient to enable a rational trier of fact to find McNeil guilty of all of the crimes for which he was convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.  Jackson v. Virginia, 443 U.S. 307, 99 S.Ct. 2781, 61 L.Ed.2d 560 (1979).   See also, e.g., Jolley v. State, 254 Ga. 624(1), 331 S.E.2d 516 (1985) (despite claim of self-defense, evidence supported felony murder conviction based on aggravated assault where defendant retrieved pistol in anticipation of confrontation and told victim to leave before shooting him).   Indeed, from the evidence presented, the jury was authorized to conclude that McNeil decided to confront Epp with the specific purpose of “whip[ping] his ass” before Epp even knew that McNeil was on his way to the scene;  that McNeil had time to stop in his driveway, retrieve a gun from his glove compartment, take the gun out of its case, load it, exit from his car, and “argue loudly” with Epp for a few minutes before firing the first shot at him;  and that McNeil lied to police when he claimed that he had shot Epp because Epp had “pulled a knife on him” during the confrontation (because other eyewitness testimony showed that Epp had no weapon in his hands at the time of the shooting, and further testimony showed that Epp's knife was folded and in his pocket after he had been shot).   Because “[w]itness credibility is a matter to be determined by the jury, as is the question of justification;  ․ the jury was free to accept the evidence that the shooting[ ][was] not done in self-defense ․ and to reject any evidence offered by [McNeil] in support of a justification defense.”  (Citation omitted.) Harris v. State, 279 Ga. 304, 306(2), 612 S.E.2d 789 (2005).   As sufficient evidence existed to support the conclusion that McNeil committed the offense of aggravated assault, and felony murder predicated on that aggravated assault, there is no basis for overturning the jury's verdict here.2

#622 dohdough

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:30 PM

You might want to research that a little more...

from the case file:

On the way back he [McNeil] reported to an emergency 911 operator that a man was on his property and had pulled a knife on his son.   Moments later, McNeil told the operator, “I'm at the property now ․ and there's the builder and I may get ready to whip his ass right now. So get the cops here now.”   As McNeil was pulling into his driveway, he retrieved an automatic handgun from his car's glove compartment, removed it from its case, and loaded it with ammunition.

Epp was in the yard between McNeil's house and the one next door and walking toward McNeil.   McNeil continued to back up with his hands pointed toward the ground and said “Back up, I am not playing with you.”   Epp increased his speed toward McNeil and McNeil raised his gun and fired at Epp's head.   Epp's hands were at his sides, and the eyewitness did not see him raise his hands or see any weapons in his hands.

If you want to read the actual events you can here:

http://caselaw.findl...rt/1418360.html


While I don't agree with the verdict it sounds to me like his comments to the 911 operator could be proved that McNeil was ready to take preemptive action regardless.

Also did this happen in Florida or Georgia?

Yeah, it's not like the son was threatened with a knife right?:roll:

edit: Does it matter where it happened? Weren't you one of those people bitching about "if roles were reversed" blah blah blah. Not only did this guy get convicted, he fucking got life.

#623 GBAstar

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:34 PM

Yeah, it's not like the son was threatened with a knife right?:roll:


I think the punishment was harsh and I don't think it fit the crime. I think it is f'd up that the DA waited a year to prosecute but I don't necessarily disagree with the thought process of the jury in the article I presented.

But it's not exactly as clear cut as the original article you posted now is it?


edit: Does it matter where it happened? Weren't you one of those people bitching about "if roles were reversed" blah blah blah. Not only did this guy get convicted, he fucking got life.


I only asked because I wasn't sure if the stand your ground laws were identical in both Georgia and Florida. I'm not very familiar with that type of thing and you might have to show more proof that your life was threatened in one state versus the other

#624 dohdough

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:51 PM

I think the punishment was harsh and I don't think it fit the crime. I think it is f'd up that the DA waited a year to prosecute but I don't necessarily disagree with the thought process of the jury in the article I presented.

But it's not exactly as clear cut as the original article you posted now is it?

I only asked because I wasn't sure if the stand your ground laws were identical in both Georgia and Florida. I'm not very familiar with that type of thing and you might have to show more proof that your life was threatened in one state versus the other

You've proven my point just fine, thankyouverymuch.

You don't think that McNeil deserves the same benefit of the doubt as Zimmerman despite a clear history of threatening behavior from Epp.

This also highlights systemic racism in the way that it disproportionately punishes black people, especially black men and when it come to juries.

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

You've proven my point just fine, thankyouverymuch.

You don't think that McNeil deserves the same benefit of the doubt as Zimmerman despite a clear history of threatening behavior from Epp.

This also highlights systemic racism in the way that it disproportionately punishes black people, especially black men and when it come to juries.



Where did I state he didn't deserve the same benefit of the doubt?

In fact I mentioned that I was surprised the DA brought up charges a year later especially considering (if I read correctly) he wasn't arrested at the time of the shooting.

All I said was that based on the information presented to the jury I'm not surprised with the verdict although I disagree with it.

If the jury in the Martin case receives similar testimony I wouldn't be surprised if Zimmerman will be found guilty. But in either case life is a very harsh sentence.

#626 dohdough

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

Where did I state he didn't deserve the same benefit of the doubt?

In fact I mentioned that I was surprised the DA brought up charges a year later especially considering (if I read correctly) he wasn't arrested at the time of the shooting.


Right here:
Spoiler



All I said was that based on the information presented to the jury I'm not surprised with the verdict although I disagree with it.

The jury knew about Epp's previous history with the family and ignored it. And since they ignored it, McNeil can't use it in an appeal.

http://caselaw.findl...#footnote_ref_2

If the jury in the Martin case receives similar testimony I wouldn't be surprised if Zimmerman will be found guilty. But in either case life is a very harsh sentence.

History tell us differently when the victim is black.

#627 joeboosauce

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:52 PM

None of us were there, so we can't say for certain if the victim acted aggressively or not towards Zimmerman.

As for not being able to tell that Zimmerman is half Hispanic from the pics, I guess I'm the only one that noticed he's a lil more 'brown' in one of the pics released of him? But I guess you'd say that makes me a 'racist' for pointing that out, right?


You seem to have an opinion on the innocent kid but also claim to not follow the case. Am I right here???
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#628 joeboosauce

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:08 PM

None of us were there, so we can't say for certain if the victim acted aggressively or not towards Zimmerman.

As for not being able to tell that Zimmerman is half Hispanic from the pics, I guess I'm the only one that noticed he's a lil more 'brown' in one of the pics released of him? But I guess you'd say that makes me a 'racist' for pointing that out, right?


You apparently NEED to listen to the 911 call... I asked someone else this and seems you need to be asked too..

So, in a nutshell, you are defending a guy (with a history of aggression) who, against the instructions of the 911 operator, sought a conflict and then killed an unarmed boy? Am I right here? And are you willing to condemn him for these actions?
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#629 joeboosauce

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:09 PM

Actually I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any friends who are anything other than caucasian/white. That is, unless the one gaming rep at BB counts as a friend. It comes down to trust issues with me. It takes a LOT for me to even consider having someone as a friend due to all of the times people I thought were friends of mine who turned into backstabbing assholes.

As for not liking certain groups of people, the only folks I may have a dislike of are non English speakers. But only because they can't understand when I say 'excuse me' to try getting by them in a store. And no, I'm not about to learn THEIR language just so I can tell them to get outta my way in a store. Call it ignorant or whatever you want to, but if you immigrated here for a better life then you should assimilate and not expect everyone else to kowtow to you.


Ahhhh... you pointed out your own problem! All those backstabbing issues are because you are hanging out with the best race for backstabbing!!! You see now that your avoidance of people of color has exposed you to more backstabbing issues. :bouncy: I jest... or maybe I don't...
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#630 IAmTheCheapestGamer

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:45 PM

You apparently NEED to listen to the 911 call... I asked someone else this and seems you need to be asked too..

So, in a nutshell, you are defending a guy (with a history of aggression) who, against the instructions of the 911 operator, sought a conflict and then killed an unarmed boy? Am I right here? And are you willing to condemn him for these actions?

Once again, no one on here was there. So maybe the kid tried grabbing the gun and Zimmerman was truly acting in self defense by firing.

When we had issues here with neighborhood kids here ruining the grass my family had just had planted, we called the cops but while waiting for them the kids came back. I confronted them and I seriously considered punching them because of the damage and emotional distress they had caused to my grandmother and mother at the time. Would it have been the right thing to do? Of course not. But it would've made me feel better to relieve some of the anger and frustration over how slowly the police were responding.

It took the cops 50 minutes to arrive from when we called them and by the time they arrived the kids were GONE.

What does this have to do with the situation with Zimmerman and Martin? Maybe George Zimmerman was feeling the same level of frustration with the slow response time from the cops as he felt that maybe this kid was looking to do something bad in his neighborhood and because the cops weren't arriving quick enough he made the decision to confront the kid and try to keep him there till they DID arrive.

Again we don't know what happened because NONE of us were there. But to say that Martin is 100% innocent and Zimmerman is 100% guilty is just as ludicrous as making assumptions based on the evidence presented thus far.

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