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Black Teen Shot, Killed By Neighborhood Watch


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#811 dohdough

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:54 PM

A dress code is racist? That's a little far-fetched. People like to dress up to do certain thngs, and they like to see others do the same.

Allow me to compare the dress of ravers and "thug wear." Both are generally oversized, include various but similar accessories, hats, sneakers, and a couple other things. But only one of those cultures revolves around psychedelic drugs while swinging flouresent checmical sticks around on strings in a dangerous manner. And before anyone makes comparisons between gangta rap and trance in regards to drug use and gang violence, MDMA use aka rolling on E is far more dangerous than smoking weed and black people in clubs aren't simulating drive by shootings.

It's racist in the same way one would say "I don't hate black people, just n****rs" or "it's not black people that are lazy; it's black 'culture.'"

Why isn't this quote working???

You used the wrong backslash.

Act white/act black - what does that mean?

My point exactly! What makes one culture or aspect of culture more acceptable than others? Why is one thing considered "normal" and how does it shift? Why do these social norms exist and how did these expressions come about?

When you can answer these questions(I'm not asking you to here), we can begin to really examine what those two concepts really mean in relation to eachother instead of looking at them as completely isolated social constructs.

I agree that no one chooses to be in poverty. Some make bad choices that keep them there, but regardless, it's very difficult to get out.

No one chooses to be a millionaire? I know that you've read a lot about poverty, but have you read much about the wealthy?

I have. Most of the ones that weren't born in that group still come from relatively privileged households compared to a vast majority of the population. Or maybe you should read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell?

#812 dmaul1114

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:03 PM

I have. Most of the ones that weren't born in that group still come from relatively privileged households compared to a vast majority of the population. Or maybe you should read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell?


I don't think that's the best example to that point. Outliers was all about how it's one part luck and one part hard work to be successful (be it wealth, being good at sports etc.).

Just being born with a silver spoon in your mouth isn't enough to make you successful--in terms of actually doing something with your life. It can mean you're automatically wealthy of course.

Gladwell argues that it's firstly luck--be it good genes for sports, some natural talent, access to a computer in the early days of computing (Bill Gates) etc. But what differentiated the truly successful was putting in 10,000 hours or more of practice (Gates' time programming, Beatles' time playing 7 day a week shows in Germany etc.).

More simply it takes some luck/opportunity for sure, but takes a lot of bootstrapping to really make it big according to Gladwell. So I think you're focusing too much on the luck/opportunity part of it, as he has lots of examples (including the Beatles) who made it big from poverty just through putting in a ton of work more than getting lucky (not really lucky to play 8+ hours a day everyday for shit pay in a bar--it was more the work ethic to stick with it and get better that got them big according to Gladwell).

So I think to Gladwell the "silver spoon" thing would be something he'd hypothesize to make it less likely for someone to truly make it big as it provides a disincentive to work hard and put in the 10,000+ hours at anything. Why bother if you're set for life from your inheritance?


TLDR; Gladwell's book isn't about who merely becomes wealthy, but who becomes hugely successful and becomes a pro athlete, famous musician, or industry changing entrepreneur. It's about who truly becomes elite at something, not just who can become rich doing something as being born into it explains a ton of that.

#813 dohdough

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:18 PM

I don't think that's the best example to that point. Outliers was all about how it's one part luck and one part hard work to be successful (be it wealth, being good at sports etc.).

Just being born with a silver spoon in your mouth isn't enough to make you successful--in terms of actually doing something with your life. It can mean you're automatically wealthy of course.

Gladwell argues that it's firstly luck--be it good genes for sports, some natural talent, access to a computer in the early days of computing (Bill Gates) etc. But what differentiated the truly successful was putting in 10,000 hours or more of practice (Gates' time programming, Beatles' time playing 7 day a week shows in Germany etc.).

More simply it takes some luck/opportunity for sure, but takes a lot of bootstrapping to really make it big according to Gladwell. So I think you're focusing too much on the luck/opportunity part of it, as he has lots of examples (including the Beatles) who made it big from poverty just through putting in a ton of work more than getting lucky (not really lucky to play 8+ hours a day everyday for shit pay in a bar--it was more the work ethic to stick with it and get better that got them big according to Gladwell).

So I think to Gladwell the "silver spoon" thing would be something he'd hypothesize to make it less likely for someone to truly make it big as it provides a disincentive to work hard and put in the 10,000+ hours at anything. Why bother if you're set for life from your inheritance?


TLDR; Gladwell's book isn't about who merely becomes wealthy, but who becomes hugely successful and becomes a pro athlete, famous musician, or industry changing entrepreneur. It's about who truly becomes elite at something, not just who can become rich doing something as being born into it explains a ton of that.

You're right, it wasn't the best example I could've used and that his thesis was also based on the ability to master a subject...the whole 10000 hours thing. But you know me, it's all about luck and that was what I was kinda focusing on.;)

I was also working on the assumption that chiwii was only talking about the bootstrapping part.

edit: And since I'm editting this post anyways and there hasn't really been any big news on this case, the Sanford Police Chief is officially resigning today.

http://content.usato.../1#.T5WjwatYvi4

#814 dmaul1114

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:22 PM

Yep. I was more getting at that to you luck=born into privilege.

And that's not Gladwell's thesis. It's just having some unique opportunity. So his theory could explain the few who get out of the ghetto and become very successful--they were willing to put in the hard work, and got a lucky break in either having the opportunity to do so, or in having their talent discovered etc.

So his thesis really starts with the bootstrapping. If you're going to be truly successful (again, not just monetarily) the hard work is the key element, just being lucky isn't enough even if born into wealth. It may keep you wealthy, but you aren't going to be an elite talent or have any big impact on the world etc.

#815 GBAstar

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:26 PM

Allow me to compare the dress of ravers and "thug wear." Both are generally oversized, include various but similar accessories, hats, sneakers, and a couple other things. But only one of those cultures revolves around psychedelic drugs while swinging flouresent checmical sticks around on strings in a dangerous manner. And before anyone makes comparisons between gangta rap and trance in regards to drug use and gang violence, MDMA use aka rolling on E is far more dangerous than smoking weed and black people in clubs aren't simulating drive by shootings.

It's racist in the same way one would say "I don't hate black people, just n****rs" or "it's not black people that are lazy; it's black 'culture.'"


You used the wrong backslash.


My point exactly! What makes one culture or aspect of culture more acceptable than others? Why is one thing considered "normal" and how does it shift? Why do these social norms exist and how did these expressions come about?

When you can answer these questions(I'm not asking you to here), we can begin to really examine what those two concepts really mean in relation to eachother instead of looking at them as completely isolated social constructs.


I have. Most of the ones that weren't born in that group still come from relatively privileged households compared to a vast majority of the population. Or maybe you should read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell?


You made a very well thought out post earlier and I wish I had more time to respond to it so I'll try tonight.

You are spot on; I've worked at many night clubs in some rough areas (Hartford, New Britain, Waterbury, New Haven) and I'd say that the "hip hop" clubs posed the fewest problems as far as fights and nonsense go. It was typically the college bars where that type of shit happened.

I will say that the most unsafe parts of the cities are the dinners and pizza shops at about 3AM after the clubs let out. That's where the stabbings and shootings occur.

But if a club wants to have some barometer of class and try to limit people in thug attire, even if it is catering towards the black hip hop crowd how can that be considered racist?

#816 dohdough

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

Yep. I was more getting at that to you luck=born into privilege.

And that's not Gladwell's thesis. It's just having some unique opportunity. So his theory could explain the few who get out of the ghetto and become very successful--they were willing to put in the hard work, and got a lucky break in either having the opportunity to do so, or in having their talent discovered etc.

So his thesis really starts with the bootstrapping. If you're going to be truly successful (again, not just monetarily) the hard work is the key element, just being lucky isn't enough even if born into wealth. It may keep you wealthy, but you aren't going to be an elite talent or have any big impact on the world etc.

Right, and I don't disagree at all that to hit that level and be at the top of your game, you have to work your ass off. I don't necessarily agree with his thesis 100%(obviously), but the most important part I get out of it is that he does in fact bring up luck WITH the hardwork when a big part of the cultural narrative is that it's all hard work and nothing else.

#817 dohdough

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

You made a very well thought out post earlier and I wish I had more time to respond to it so I'll try tonight.

You are spot on; I've worked at many night clubs in some rough areas (Hartford, New Britain, Waterbury, New Haven) and I'd say that the "hip hop" clubs posed the fewest problems as far as fights and nonsense go. It was typically the college bars where that type of shit happened.

I will say that the most unsafe parts of the cities are the dinners and pizza shops at about 3AM after the clubs let out. That's where the stabbings and shootings occur.

But if a club wants to have some barometer of class and try to limit people in thug attire, even if it is catering towards the black hip hop crowd how can that be considered racist?

Well, why is one considered classy and one not?

I forgot to address the whole thing with the prison id in your other post. This issue also brings up another issue in regards to voter id's. The question is where or how are these people supposed to get id's? For someone that just got out, what are the chances that they have official mail? A few bank statements? A birth certifate? SS card or a whole slew of other things that one would require in order to get that official state id? And it's not like they're free either. Even beyond that, where are they supposed to get the knowledge? Saying that we can just google that shit is coming from a position of hindsight and privilege.

#818 dmaul1114

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:04 PM

Right, and I don't disagree at all that to hit that level and be at the top of your game, you have to work your ass off. I don't necessarily agree with his thesis 100%(obviously), but the most important part I get out of it is that he does in fact bring up luck WITH the hardwork when a big part of the cultural narrative is that it's all hard work and nothing else.


Agreed. That's why I liked the book as well. It keeps the emphasis on hardwork which I think is important given where the average work ethic is these days--especially in younger generations.

But at the same time you can't go pure American dream BS that hardwork can get anyone ahead. Hardwork is no guarantee of getting by, much less getting ahead, as luck in getting the right opportunities (and lack of obstacles) is always a huge factor as well.

#819 chiwii

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:06 PM

Allow me to compare the dress of ravers and "thug wear." Both are generally oversized, include various but similar accessories, hats, sneakers, and a couple other things. But only one of those cultures revolves around psychedelic drugs while swinging flouresent checmical sticks around on strings in a dangerous manner. And before anyone makes comparisons between gangta rap and trance in regards to drug use and gang violence, MDMA use aka rolling on E is far more dangerous than smoking weed and black people in clubs aren't simulating drive by shootings.

It's racist in the same way one would say "I don't hate black people, just n****rs" or "it's not black people that are lazy; it's black 'culture.'"


I guess I just disagree that "thug wear" is the only way black people dress, and that not allowing them to wear that clothing in the club is discriminating against them. People of any race who aren't dressed appropriately are turned away.

You used the wrong backslash.

thanks

My point exactly! What makes one culture or aspect of culture more acceptable than others? Why is one thing considered "normal" and how does it shift? Why do these social norms exist and how did these expressions come about?

When you can answer these questions(I'm not asking you to here), we can begin to really examine what those two concepts really mean in relation to eachother instead of looking at them as completely isolated social constructs.

It seems like humans have always done this. As soon as they figured out a few different ways to clothe themselves, the earliest humans probably decided that certain clothes were better than others. I'm not aware of any culture today that doesn't have expectations on how people dress. Those are good questions, but I doubt that it's something that will ever change.

I have. Most of the ones that weren't born in that group still come from relatively privileged households compared to a vast majority of the population. Or maybe you should read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell?


I've read Outliers. I think dmaul covered this subject well, so I just want to clarify that I do not believe that people can bootstrap themselves to financial success with hard work alone, or that everyone would be rich if they just worked harder. For people that are moving up from lower or middle class, it's probably usually a lot of hard-work and a little luck. For people born into wealth, obviously it's mostly luck and possibly a little hard work if they are trying to maintain their wealth.

#820 slidecage

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:39 PM

so what is it..

first they said martin lived in that neighborhood now they said he was visiting someone ?
WOOOO I STINK

#821 nasum

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:09 PM

If I were GZ, I think I'd rather stay in jail... Seems like it's probably the safer place for him.

Then again I'm anti-gun so I wouldn't be in his position anyway.
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#822 Clak

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:40 PM

And if you think, none of this would have happened if he had just followed the instructions of the 911 operator and let the police do their jobs, rater than trying to act like one himself.
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#823 nasum

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:19 PM

oh you!
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#824 DurbanBrown

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:58 PM

Finally a honest sounding article on zimmerman and his past. from yahoo no less. thought this was worth sharing...

http://news.yahoo.co...-194235114.html

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#825 dohdough

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:24 PM

Finally a honest sounding article on zimmerman and his past. from yahoo no less. thought this was worth sharing...

http://news.yahoo.co...-194235114.html

Yup. It's as honest as how some people describe Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings relationship as a "romance."

It's a fluff piece to meant evoke sympathy for Zimmerman.

#826 caltab

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:17 PM

Yup. It's as honest as how some people describe Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings relationship as a "romance."

It's a fluff piece to meant evoke sympathy for Zimmerman.


Rather than just calling it a fluff piece, which is easy to do and accomplishes nothing....why don't you point out something that is innacurate about the story.

The article is probably uncomfortable to those who just want to paint Zimmerman as a one dimensional monster, but what specifically about it is unfair or innacurate.

#827 KingBroly

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

Slightly OT, but slightly not.

Dohdough, what do you think of Bruins fans hating on my boy Joel Ward with racial tweets?
http://www.huffingto..._n_1455975.html

EDIT:
He's not my boy, he just got my team to the next round of the playoffs.

Edited by KingBroly, 26 April 2012 - 05:35 PM.

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#828 GBAstar

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:39 PM

Slightly OT, but slightly not.

Dohdough, what do you think of Bruins fans hating on my boy Joel Ward with racial tweets?
http://www.huffingto..._n_1455975.html

EDIT:
He's not my boy, he just got my team to the next round of the playoffs.



That's sad.

#829 nasum

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:41 PM

fluff piece though it may be, I still hold to GZ not having a hard-on for killing a black kid. It's just a series of bad decisions leading to a terrible tragedy. Even if he gets off on Murder II, he'll get crucified in a wrongful death civil trial which would be more advantageous to the family anyways.
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#830 dohdough

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:55 PM

Rather than just calling it a fluff piece, which is easy to do and accomplishes nothing....why don't you point out something that is innacurate about the story.

The article is probably uncomfortable to those who just want to paint Zimmerman as a one dimensional monster, but what specifically about it is unfair or innacurate.

Are you implying that the piece is accurate, fair, and ISN'T attempting to elicit sympathy for Zimmerman? Even Hitler loved his dogs and had a girlfriend. Hell, I bet Zimmerman even mowed his lawn and gave out candy to black kids on Halloween. He probably also gave his parents Christmas gifts too. Why not include those things too humanize him some more? Or how about an account of his marriage proposal, wedding, honeymoon, and anniversary surprises?

The whole piece oozes with trying to portray Zimmerman as a good Catholic boy that always tried to do the right thing, getting into a little trouble, but most of all NOT RACIST as if the primary manifestations of racism these days are a bunch of white people shouting "n****r" at black people while trying to lynch them. The passive voice of the author saying "Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest." acts as if Zimmerman is divorced from his actions of being the one that pulled the trigger and killed Martin. It's the same passive voice bullshit that Zimmerman pulled on his website about "a life changing event that happened to him" as if he wasn't responsible for it.

Slightly OT, but slightly not.

Dohdough, what do you think of Bruins fans hating on my boy Joel Ward with racial tweets?
http://www.huffingto..._n_1455975.html

I live in Boston. A lot of people in Boston are racist. People that made those tweets are racist. Lots of people in general are racist and supported by institutional racism. So I'm not surprised? Should I be? Why don't you tell us what you think about it? I'm sure everyone already knows what I think.

#831 GBAstar

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:08 PM

Are you implying that the piece is accurate, fair, and ISN'T attempting to elicit sympathy for Zimmerman? Even Hitler loved his dogs and had a girlfriend. Hell, I bet Zimmerman even mowed his lawn and gave out candy to black kids on Halloween. He probably also gave his parents Christmas gifts too. Why not include those things too humanize him some more? Or how about an account of his marriage proposal, wedding, honeymoon, and anniversary surprises?

The whole piece oozes with trying to portray Zimmerman as a good Catholic boy that always tried to do the right thing, getting into a little trouble, but most of all NOT RACIST as if the primary manifestations of racism these days are a bunch of white people shouting "n****r" at black people while trying to lynch them. The passive voice of the author saying "Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest." acts as if Zimmerman is divorced from his actions of being the one that pulled the trigger and killed Martin. It's the same passive voice bullshit that Zimmerman pulled on his website about "a life changing event that happened to him" as if he wasn't responsible for it.


I live in Boston. A lot of people in Boston are racist. People that made those tweets are racist. Lots of people in general are racist and supported by institutional racism. So I'm not surprised? Should I be? Why don't you tell us what you think about it? I'm sure everyone already knows what I think.



I am interested in what you think; I always wondered how you can be a true sports fan AND blatantly racist. I think diversity is great for hockey and will only bring in a larger fanbase.

I'm an all New England fan and I always wondered how you could tweet shit like that and then celebrate when an all black Celtic starting five wins the NBA championship.

It has been a great decade or so of sports in the greater Boston Area... sometimes I don't understand what is wrong with people.

#832 Clak

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:52 PM

Seriously, that article was anything but honest sounding. Actually I'll take that back, honest sounding, yes, honest in reality? No. I don't give a damn if that neighborhood had been robbed by 100 black men in the last few months, he should have called the police and left it at that. This isn't the comics, we don't allow vigilantes. He thought he was going to be a big man and take matters into his own hands, and he did, now he's going to answer for it.
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#833 nasum

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:52 PM

oh I wasn't implying that anyone here in particular stated that he wanted to kill a black kid, but many of his detractors seem to come to that conclusion.

Maybe a better way of saying it is that the act itself wasn't racist, but the aftermath and the divisions made are pretty clearly inline.
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#834 dohdough

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:03 PM

oh I wasn't implying that anyone here in particular stated that he wanted to kill a black kid, but many of his detractors seem to come to that conclusion.

Gotcha. Maybe it's because I don't try to read comments on yahoo or pay attention to the more extreme unnuanced editorials about this case, but I don't recall his detractors calling him a hood-wearing racist that was out to put black kids behind bars(or worse). That kind of sentiment works in opposition to the racial profiling angle which I saw as more prevalent. Feel free to point me in that direction though...hahaha.

Maybe a better way of saying it is that the act itself wasn't racist, but the aftermath and the divisions made are pretty clearly inline.

Yeah, the event incident was bad enough and it snowballed from there.

#835 renique46

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:05 PM

Seriously, that article was anything but honest sounding. Actually I'll take that back, honest sounding, yes, honest in reality? No. I don't give a damn if that neighborhood had been robbed by 100 black men in the last few months, he should have called the police and left it at that. This isn't the comics, we don't allow vigilantes. He thought he was going to be a big man and take matters into his own hands, and he did, now he's going to answer for it.


Don't even bother, when it is all said and done people are just gonna be too ignorant to grasp the truth of what you said period.

#836 Soodmeg

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:51 PM

Wow I love how you can kill a child for any reason and receive thousands of dollars. Don't even know how to feel about that. How much money has the martins received? You know because at the end of the day its their child that was killed but it seems many people couldn't give another shit about some dead hoodie wearing thug. I hope your kids never get killed for walking.

Still to this day that haven't stated why Zimmerman got out I his car after calling the police. From what I have learned jn this thread you can do anything you want up unto actually hitting someone and still claim self defense.

#837 dohdough

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:59 PM

Wow I love how you can kill a child for any reason and receive thousands of dollars. Don't even know how to feel about that. How much money has the martins received? You know because at the end of the day its their child that was killed but it seems many people couldn't give another shit about some dead hoodie wearing thug. I hope your kids never get killed for walking.

Still to this day that haven't stated why Zimmerman got out I his car after calling the police. From what I have learned jn this thread you can do anything you want up unto actually hitting someone and still claim self defense.

Almost. You forgot the part where you have to kill the person because dead people tell no tales.

#838 caltab

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:32 PM

defense funds are very common and a great thing for tax payers. Id much rather private parties pay for his defense than the state. Brutal murderers on death row get private funding for appeals from people who oppose the death penalty without scrutiny from the media, I don't see what the issue is with Zimmerman getting money.

#839 dohdough

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:55 PM

defense funds are very common and a great thing for tax payers. Id much rather private parties pay for his defense than the state. Brutal murderers on death row get private funding for appeals from people who oppose the death penalty without scrutiny from the media, I don't see what the issue is with Zimmerman getting money.

There are two reasons why it's problematic:

1. His bond was set according to his alleged financial difficulty of not having any money period.

2. He certainly knows his audience and designed his website to court and solicit donations from ultra-nationalists, bigots, and racists.

Donations from people opposing the death penalty are different from the type of people that Zimmerman targeted. Considering the way the death penalty has been applied in a racist manner, it demonstrates an even greater reason as to why someone shouldn't be comparing the two.

Should he be able to solicit funds from whoever he wants? Of course, but don't expect people to not be critical of the way he does it considering the way he did.

edit: Don't get me wrong, the first point is the more important one because it's subverting the process.

Edited by dohdough, 27 April 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#840 GBAstar

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:50 PM

I can't find the article done by Yahoo! But while I was at work the other day I noticed they did a write up on Al Sharpton addressing the Martin supporters in light of the 20th anniversary of the Rodney King beating and subsequent riots.

While I think Sharpton can be a HUGE jackass I actually thought that was a classy move on his part giving that the anniversary almost coincided exactly with the day that Zimmerman was released on bail.