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When did secondary market prices for NES get so out of hand?


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#91 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:08 AM

Tl;dr


Thanks for your contribution. You so funny! :roll:

#92 RedRingOfDeath

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:34 AM

Like I said, it's not about just getting the most out of an item. Time is of the essence. Seller #2233 needs to pay his electric bill.

People act in their own self interest, which is that they don't care what other people will make. They simply want to get paid what they want to get paid. Of course they'd like to make as much money as they can but in order to have collusion and price fixing, they need to think about other sellers' interests, which no one on ebay ever does.

That's the invisible hand of the market at play.

I don't understand how you are halfway there on the free market and don't see the rest.


Thats not the invisible hand of the market. The invisible hand is very basically people looking after their own self interests, which mysteriously drives the marketplace forward.

I think I see where you are coming from. You are saying that the free market is at work and that is why prices are the way they are. I am saying that that is not the case in this instance because eBay is a microcosm of the world market and therefore is susceptible to influence much more easily (because there are drastically fewer people on eBay as compared to all the people that are part of the global marketplace).

Sellers dont need to think about anyone elses interests... Where are you inferring this from? That is why I said "informal" cartel. They only think about their own stuff and how much they can get. The only type of "collusion" that takes place is when one seller sees another raise his price, so they in turn raise theirs to get more $$$. Its an informal collusion and I am not saying that one seller is thinking of another in any way. All the sellers are doing is seeing each others prices and that is influencing them when they set their price. It is not truly a cartel, but that is the closest way to describe what is going on. It is basically monkey see monkey do - 1 person raises prices so the rest follow suit in order to make more profit. The result is a cartel effect where the price on eBay is higher than IRL (assuming that the IRL store price is equivalent to the market value) because a few sellers that raised their price for no other reason than to make more profit were able to influence the price.

No one is actually colluding or thinking the same or talking or whatever. It is human psychology and human nature to want more. A rational people will naturally want to get a higher price, therefore if they see 1 person is getting away with charging more, the rest will as well. This creates the "cartel" effect that the OP was talking about.

I dont know how else I can say it so I will give up as well. I would suggest that you go ask an economist as they would be able to explain it much easier than I can. What the OP is saying is totally logical, and logic would stipulate that what he has said is possible. Im not here to win an argument. I was simply trying to help people understand where the OP was even coming from. People laugh at him like he is dumb, yet his words are not outlandish at all...and even make sense if you have an understanding of economics, how cartels work, and think it through thoroughly.

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#93 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:44 AM

Actually if you have an understanding of economics, you wouldn't say anything close to what he's saying about eBay and nes cartels.

There are some arguments to be made that eBay is not a perfect marketplace but in this case, none of them matter. Old Nes games have no cartels. Informal or otherwise.

There is no price fixing.

#94 smallsharkbigbite

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:47 AM

Like I said, it's not about just getting the most out of an item. Time is of the essence. Seller #2233 needs to pay his electric bill.

People act in their own self interest, which is that they don't care what other people will make. They simply want to get paid what they want to get paid. Of course they'd like to make as much money as they can but in order to have collusion and price fixing, they need to think about other sellers' interests, which no one on ebay ever does.

That's the invisible hand of the market at play.

I don't understand how you are halfway there on the free market and don't see the rest.


Just to go a bit further with your point, since I somehow read all the thread :). Spham seems to be arguing that the market is not working because the invisible hand is not instantly connecting buyers and sellers. It never does. Look at the housing market. We are on what, year 3 of working through the housing market issues and trying to get back to more of a normal sales lag?

It's the same thing here. A buyer and seller may not connect this week if there are only 5 copies of a game and everybody is selling at $20, but buyers want to pay $10. But eventually somebody's expectations will change. And it may be the buyers who say, you know I really do want that game and it is now worth $20 to me. And the market value solidifies at $20. Or it may be the sellers who say I really want to sell this game, so I'll sell to a willing buyer at $10. It may take a while. If you really want the game now, you'll pay $20 and that will be the market value.

But I think the answer is really easy. If a bunch of sales were occurring at $10 and now none are a drop in supply occurred. It's going to be impossible for you to prove an oligopoly exists since probably a half million different people have a copy of this game. They don't currently have it up for sale on ebay but if for some reason the market value of the game jumped to $500, people would be coming out of the woodwork to sell their copy. Since supply increases as price increases.

Taken a step further, demand decreases as price increases. Thus, if you used to see 10 sales/month at $10 and now you see 1 sale/month at $20, that seems to indicate that the demand/supply curve is reacting exactly the way it is supposed to.

Edited by smallsharkbigbite, 18 April 2012 - 02:21 AM.


#95 spmahn

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:16 AM

Like I said, it's not about just getting the most out of an item. Time is of the essence. Seller #2233 needs to pay his electric bill.

People act in their own self interest, which is that they don't care what other people will make. They simply want to get paid what they want to get paid. Of course they'd like to make as much money as they can but in order to have collusion and price fixing, they need to think about other sellers' interests, which no one on ebay ever does.

That's the invisible hand of the market at play.

I don't understand how you are halfway there on the free market and don't see the rest.


Sellter #2233 may lower his price because he needs to pay his electric bill, but what about sellers #1 - #2232 who don't care whether or not the game actually sells, and are just fishing for someone to bit on their high prices. They're never going to lower their prices, because they don't want to. Their only self interest is to try and sell game X for as high a prices as possible, even if it's unrealistic, they are still preying on the hope that there's a sucker born every minute.

What I've been saying is that eBay is overrun with these types that cause prices to inflate, despite the fact that there is no market for the items they are selling at the prices they are selling them for. Yes, sometimes you will get sellers that will lower their prices to levels that the market will bear, but it's hardly a frequent enough occurrence that you can point to that as the invisible hand of the market. Essentially what eBay has become is the guy who loads and unloads the same crap into his truck at the Flea Market each week, stubbornly refusing to lower his prices, because he has zero overhead, and doesn't actually care if he makes money or not. In fact with eBay it's even worse since there's almost zero investment of time.

#96 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:21 AM

I give up.

#97 smallsharkbigbite

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:31 AM

Sellter #2233 may lower his price because he needs to pay his electric bill, but what about sellers #1 - #2232 who don't care whether or not the game actually sells, and are just fishing for someone to bit on their high prices. They're never going to lower their prices, because they don't want to. Their only self interest is to try and sell game X for as high a prices as possible, even if it's unrealistic, they are still preying on the hope that there's a sucker born every minute.

What I've been saying is that eBay is overrun with these types that cause prices to inflate, despite the fact that there is no market for the items they are selling at the prices they are selling them for. Yes, sometimes you will get sellers that will lower their prices to levels that the market will bear, but it's hardly a frequent enough occurrence that you can point to that as the invisible hand of the market. Essentially what eBay has become is the guy who loads and unloads the same crap into his truck at the Flea Market each week, stubbornly refusing to lower his prices, because he has zero overhead, and doesn't actually care if he makes money or not. In fact with eBay it's even worse since there's almost zero investment of time.


Sellers can't dictate the market. It doesn't matter what the price is at or if the listers on ebay care if they sell the game at all.

Supply increases as price increases. Thus, there may be 10 people that are willing to sell their copy at $10, 20 people willing to sell their copy at $20, 30 people willing to sell their copy at $30, etc. Just because I'm one of the 30 people willing to sell the game at $30 and I decide to list the game on ebay for $30 indefinitely that doesn't affect the value at all.

What does affect value is when a buyer runs out of other options (local game stores, flea markets, craiglist) and all the sellers willing to sell the game for $10 have already sold their game. It is a fact as price increases, fewer sales occur. Thus, just because you used to see dozens sell at $10 and now you only see a few sell at $20, does not mean the market is not functioning. Also, it does not mean the people willing to sell at $20 are influencing the market any differently than the normal supply/demand where more sellers are willing to sell at higher prices and less buyers are willing to partake in the market at higher prices. This is normal and happens when a decrease in supply occurs.

#98 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:32 AM

Sellers can't dictate the market.


That is the be all and end all.

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#99 spmahn

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:41 AM

Sellers can't dictate the market. It doesn't matter what the price is at or if the listers on ebay care if they sell the game at all.

Supply increases as price increases. Thus, there may be 10 people that are willing to sell their copy at $10, 20 people willing to sell their copy at $20, 30 people willing to sell their copy at $30, etc. Just because I'm one of the 30 people willing to sell the game at $30 and I decide to list the game on ebay for $30 indefinitely that doesn't affect the value at all.

What does affect value is when a buyer runs out of other options (local game stores, flea markets, craiglist) and all the sellers willing to sell the game for $10 have already sold their game. It is a fact as price increases, fewer sales occur. Thus, just because you used to see dozens sell at $10 and now you only see a few sell at $20, does not mean the market is not functioning. Also, it does not mean the people willing to sell at $20 are influencing the market any differently than the normal supply/demand where more sellers are willing to sell at higher prices and less buyers are willing to partake in the market at higher prices. This is normal and happens when a decrease in supply occurs.


I see. It makes a lot more sense when it's not so full of snark. Thank you.

#100 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:42 AM

So you spend 4 pages arguing with me because you think I'm snarky? And not because you actually believe the stuff you were saying.

Nice trolling.

Silly me, I fell for it.

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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#101 spmahn

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:51 AM

So you spend 4 pages arguing with me because you think I'm snarky? And not because you actually believe the stuff you were saying.

Nice trolling.

Silly me, I fell for it.


No, I spent 4 pages arguing with you because you were more concerned with being a douchebag than you were in making an argument. "You're a troll", "Read more about free markets" and "You whine too much" are not arguments.

#102 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:55 AM

so what about all the other arguments I made in this thread. You just conveniently chose to ignore those then? I didn't type 200 words multiple times? Was every single post just "neener neener?" No, you read my arguments and either couldn't comprehend or chose to be deliberately obtuse in your responses. Over and over and over again.

Whatever man, you started out whining about how ebay sellers were some sort of cartel setting prices and in the end, you were wrong. So, that's that.

Btw, "Read more about free markets" was a good suggestion.

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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#103 spmahn

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:03 AM

so what about all the other arguments I made in this thread. You just conveniently chose to ignore those then? I didn't type 200 words multiple times? Was every single post just "neener neener?" No, you read my arguments and either couldn't comprehend or chose to be deliberately obtuse in your responses. Over and over and over again.

Whatever man, you started out whining about how ebay sellers were some sort of cartel setting prices and in the end, you were wrong. So, that's that.

Btw, "Read more about free markets" was a good suggestion.


I don't see it any different than you ignoring my arguments that didn't fit into your narrative, and focusing on the ones that did by making arguments based on false assumptions, but I'm through. It's been a blast.

#104 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:12 AM

I didn't ignore your arguments that didn't fit my narrative. I ignored the parts of your arguments that were ridiculous.

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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#105 KtMack23

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:25 AM

While these old game prices are sort of inflated, whats going to happen is people wont buy them at the high prices, the market will dry up, prices will drop, people will buy again, and the cycle starts over. Its free market economics at work and I love it!

Man you people are cheap.

 


#106 Dokstarr

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:07 AM

Though I am not sure if the children of today will become so that they want to get things from their childhood, many are so spoiled that all they care about is getting what is new so I don't know if its going to happen en masse like it has with the kids of the 80's generation. I have to wonder if the give your children whatever they want attitude most children are subjected to these days will carry into their adulthood so all they will be focused on is the shiny new Apple gadget and they will care less about the old PS2. Almost everyone I talk to in my age group (80's generation) has at least some form of nostalgia for the toys or video games they had as a kid, its hard to find a person who doesn't.


This is something too. I remember cherishing my NES and SNES games. Organzing them in the shoe box next to the TV set. I would get games only on Christmas and my birthday and maybe once in my uncle as a surprise. With the SNES for like 6 years I probably owned 12 games. My parents were more likely to rent a game for 2 dollars from the video store than actually by them.

Then you take my cousin. He is 12 and just got the 360 this Christmas. He is up to 14 games. I look at his recently played game list and I see GTA4, MW 1, 2, 3, Gears 1, 2, Michael Jackson, some kinect games, Bioshock, Crackdown, Reach, DJ Hero, Skyrim, etc.

Also the fact he doesn't take care of games. I see them scattered around like frisbees. It just isn't my cousin. A friend of mine has a 11 year old and I think they went through 2 Nintendo DS' and are now on a 3DS because he keeps breaking them, dropping them, the dog gets it. Not to mention how many games have been stepped on or chewed up by the dogs.

I'm not saying that the kids are bad or anything, but just that I treated my carts like gold. Whenever something got dropped I'd freak out. Games are now seen as disposable when I always thought of them as a huge treat.

Maybe I'm wrong about the nostalgia factor, but I just feel like the PS2 and beyond stuff will never be as huge as current retro gaming. I have no real drive to play anything from the PS2 aside from a few games that have already been re-released. The Xbox I just want Otogi and Panzer Dragoon.

Even now if I'm not playing something from the last few years I'm playing Donkey Kong on MAME or Mike Tyson' Punch-Out!!

#107 portnoyd

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:56 PM

The problem is, to spmahn's point, resellers are pricing things recklessly and uninformed buyers are assuming that is how much they should pay, specifically:

because the average person doesn't understand that just because someone lists game X for Y dollars, doesn't mean that it's worth Y dollars, and definitely doesn't mean that it will actually be sold for Y dollars.


Sellers are concerned with their own self interest, sure, but that only is the main concern in a bubble. RedRingofDeath already said this, but collusion between eBay sellers is happening, but indirectly. One seller manages to find a sucker willing to pay 150% over market value (as is above), the other sellers see this and follow suit and raise prices, leading to heaps of open BIN auctions sitting on eBay for months at that new price, and then the cycle repeats. I have talked to sellers, both online and at game shows like MGC and this is exactly what they do.

There is indirect price fixing under this model perpetuated by eBay's business model. I have talked to people who play the eBay game, have you, confoosius?

The real evidence here for what spman is saying and proof this has an effect on prices is this:
http://videogames.pr...es?sort-by=name

Someone earlier in the thread linked this but spmahn's detractors paid it no mind. The key here is the past 2 years. A 50% jump from 2 years ago and a 37% jump from a year ago. That's INSANE. Keep in mind JJGames's data is pulled from eBay/Amazon/half.com, aggregates and averages. It's the most comprehensive pricing source on the internet so it's not just abstract conjecture from the naysayers in this thread.

So the answer to the question when did the secondary market on NES get out of hand? 1-2 years ago and the recent trend implies it's just getting warmed up.

And who says Battletoads isn't worth 19.99?


Actual data from eBay, Amazon and half.com says it's not.

http://videogames.pr...es/battletoads#

Now take a look at this:

http://www.ebay.com/...6.c0.m270.l1313

To spmahn's point, how many BIN Battletoads are above that $12.47 price point? All of them. Since eBay allows them to price things without any drawback to their own pocket, this is what happens.

The prospect that a handful of people are controlling the market by putting up their games for high prices on eBay is hilarious.


Not putting up for high prices, but there are individuals out there influencing different sectors of NES collecting dramatically. Without naming names, try and find a pattern on completed CIB black box NES auctions. Your hint is the magic number which is currently 3285.

I do have to say coonfooscious has really done nothing to have the OP take him seriously by being extremely dismissive. The claims of 'grow up' and 'are you f'ing insane' dilute any message he's trying to relay.

#108 yourlefthand

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

The problem is, to spmahn's point, resellers are pricing things recklessly and uninformed buyers are assuming that is how much they should pay, specifically:



Sellers are concerned with their own self interest, sure, but that only is the main concern in a bubble. RedRingofDeath already said this, but collusion between eBay sellers is happening, but indirectly. One seller manages to find a sucker willing to pay 150% over market value (as is above), the other sellers see this and follow suit and raise prices, leading to heaps of open BIN auctions sitting on eBay for months at that new price, and then the cycle repeats. I have talked to sellers, both online and at game shows like MGC and this is exactly what they do.

There is indirect price fixing under this model perpetuated by eBay's business model. I have talked to people who play the eBay game, have you, confoosius?

The real evidence here for what spman is saying and proof this has an effect on prices is this:
http://videogames.pr...es?sort-by=name

Someone earlier in the thread linked this but spmahn's detractors paid it no mind. The key here is the past 2 years. A 50% jump from 2 years ago and a 37% jump from a year ago. That's INSANE. Keep in mind JJGames's data is pulled from eBay/Amazon/half.com, aggregates and averages. It's the most comprehensive pricing source on the internet so it's not just abstract conjecture from the naysayers in this thread.

So the answer to the question when did the secondary market on NES get out of hand? 1-2 years ago and the recent trend implies it's just getting warmed up.


It seems to me that the market for all collectibles has been heating back up as the economy in general has started to rebound. I refuse to do in-depth research on this to satisfy spmahn, as he is unwilling to listen to ideas that may contradict his preconceptions.

The whole argument comes down to the fact that one person can't determine what an item is worth. They can determine what it is worth to them, but there are so many factors in pricing on ebay that simply comparing buy it now prices to auction prices doesn't really prove anything. In my ebay experience people are willing to pay more for items with 'pretty' listings. Keywords, feedback, shipping speed, and a decent description help a lot also.

#109 Confucius

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

Let me try to explain this without being "dismissive."

All these arguments about how prices have jumped because of price fixing and all this other stuff violate the invisible hand of the market, which still holds true on ebay.

None of the arguments about microcosm, collusion, whatever make a whit of difference. You can link all the auctions you want. You can link all the video game price charts you want. It doesn't matter. Adam Smith is not wrong.

Let's say you have a flea market with 100 vendors. 10 of them are selling Barbie Horse Adventures GBA for $20 each. This particular flea market keeps a log of all their sales in the past 30 days. And some other flea market consultant keeps a log for 30 years. None of this matters.

Because the flea market has no barriers to entry. Anyone can just plop down their wares and sell. Therefore, the value of Barbie Horse Adventures GBA is whatever the next person is willing to pay for it. If no buyers come along that buy it at $20, no matter how many people list it at $20, the value isn't $20.

Three things can happen:

1) Nobody sells BHA and that's fine with everyone. They wouldn't want to part with their game for less than $20.

or 2) People start selling BHA at $20. So more vendors who had it in their collection start bringing it out to sell for $20 because they feel $20 is a pretty good price to fetch.

or 3) 1 out of the 100 vendors decides they'd be fine with selling BHA for $15. Now, all of the sudden, a price point, a single price point has been established at $15. If every other vendor shrugs and keeps it at $20, then the value hasn't moved appreciably and we wait for the next sale. Or none at all.

Or the next vendor decides $15 is good enough and drops his price to $15 and it sells. Rinse repeat.

---

The self interest of the first and second up to x vendors drives the market. Does the first vendor care that he's temporarily setting a price point for BHA and that he might be screwing over this "informal cartel?" Of course not. He just wants to be rid of BHA and either needs the money or the space or maybe he just is sick of looking at it. None of that matters.

Again, all that matters is that every single seller (and buyer), acting is his own self interest, will create an efficient marketplace for goods.

That's all that matters.

I see links to auctions and all that stuff. Tell me how any of that negates the invisible hand? It does not.

The efficient marketplace wins again.

You don't have to have a global marketplace for it to be efficient. How many items are global? The produce you buy locally competes against local vendors, not global vendors. The "ebay is a microcosm" argument doesn't work. It's not like they were the Apple store and nobody else carried Apple products.

There are no barriers to entry. Some old lady whose son has grown up might find a stack of barbie horse adventures in her attic. Does she care that everyone else is listing at $20? No, she wants to just get rid of the stack (probably cause she is ashamed) to make a little cash and to clear up space. So she starts her listing (or even her BIN) at $10. Her self interest drives the market.

----

Here's the thing I don't get. When the price of old NES carts go through the roof, it's informal price fixing. But when old Atari games plummet down again, it's not price fixing by the cartel?

This is why I'm dismissive. It just seems this entire thread is based on a whine that NES games are too high so someone must be to blame. (No one is to blame.) And the OP thinks he should be the one who determines what a game is worth. It's just his opinion. VG price charts and all that are fine but the value of a game is whatever the next person will pay for it, not what the OP thinks. (Or what a handful of sellers think.) To rant and rave against the informal cartel of ebay price fixing is sheer arrogance built on ignorance.

Please, if you can create a good argument about why ebay is immune to the invisible hand, I'd love to hear it. The fact that ebay isn't the only marketplace for NES games is even better. There's competition from other sellers on craigslist, forums, etc. Competition everywhere makes it more perfect. After all, it's not like people are forced to buy NES carts from only ebay.

Edited by confoosious, 18 April 2012 - 07:21 PM.

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#110 pippin

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:59 PM

I don't think anyone has mentioned that one reason you see a lot of vastly overpriced listings on ebay or amazon or whatever is because the items listed at a reasonable price actually sell while the ones listed at ridiculous prices just stay there. There are tons of resellers on Amazon especially who list items at absolutely outrageous prices and they will probably never sell. This doesn't affect the market or the value of the item whatsoever.

Another factor is that it's much more convenient to buy an item instantly rather than waiting for an auction to end and hoping you win. This is probably the main reason BIN auctions are almost always listed at higher prices than standard auctions. Sellers assume, and rightfully so, that if someone is willing to watch an auction for days and eventually pay $10 for a game, then there are probably others who would pay more than that for the convenience of buying the game instantly.

And finally, it's not reasonable to assume that you are entitled to pay no more for an item than other people who bought the same item before you. You are free to take that information into consideration when making your decision and if you don't want to pay more than that, that's perfectly fine. If that is the case though, you might just have to wait it out and hope you can find one for the price you're willing to pay. If you want to buy the item right now, you're probably going to have to pay more. You just can't expect it to always be available right now for your accepted value.

#111 Indigo_Streetlight

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:56 PM

$20 is high but not unbelievable on a game like Battletoads--if all available copies are bought up to $12 then I might list a nice copy for $15 plus shipping. Furthermore, an international buyer might be willing to pay $20, which could explain why some of the higher BINs do sell.

Here's the thing, if I have one copy of Battletoads and know it will sell I have no problem sitting on it for a year...as opposed to taking it up the ass and accepting a cheapass offer like $8 shipped. I set myself a target of how much I want to clear on the item after fees and shipping: it might be as little as $10. You want the game, you eat the extra costs involved. Simple as that.
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#112 Indigo_Streetlight

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:09 PM

Also, if you want to blame anybody for the higher prices, blame local retro stores who overprice sought-after items and still can't keep them in stock. These are the folk who use ebay as a supply depot and a source of free advertising.
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#113 Dr. Venkman

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:39 PM

I can't tell you how many people have overvalued/overpaid for "old" games simply because they are old.

"I have 30 Atari games in a box in my closet. They're prolly worth $500 or so now, but I'd let em go for $350 cash."

Um. No.

I watched a guy pay $50 cash for Donkey Kong Country and F-Zero a few weeks ago. The guy that owned the games had them in a display case with other SNES carts for kids to play on an old TV. Customer walked up, in awe seeing SNES carts in an actual store again, and begged to purchase them.

"They aren't for sale."

"Dude, I really want them! How much?"

"Um.. $50 cash."

"SCORE!"

(Acting like he just made out like a bandit)

"These things are so rare these days, I can't believe I just bought TWO of them".

I was blown away.
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#114 SaraAB

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:12 AM

This is something too. I remember cherishing my NES and SNES games. Organzing them in the shoe box next to the TV set. I would get games only on Christmas and my birthday and maybe once in my uncle as a surprise. With the SNES for like 6 years I probably owned 12 games. My parents were more likely to rent a game for 2 dollars from the video store than actually by them.

Then you take my cousin. He is 12 and just got the 360 this Christmas. He is up to 14 games. I look at his recently played game list and I see GTA4, MW 1, 2, 3, Gears 1, 2, Michael Jackson, some kinect games, Bioshock, Crackdown, Reach, DJ Hero, Skyrim, etc.

Also the fact he doesn't take care of games. I see them scattered around like frisbees. It just isn't my cousin. A friend of mine has a 11 year old and I think they went through 2 Nintendo DS' and are now on a 3DS because he keeps breaking them, dropping them, the dog gets it. Not to mention how many games have been stepped on or chewed up by the dogs.

I'm not saying that the kids are bad or anything, but just that I treated my carts like gold. Whenever something got dropped I'd freak out. Games are now seen as disposable when I always thought of them as a huge treat.

Maybe I'm wrong about the nostalgia factor, but I just feel like the PS2 and beyond stuff will never be as huge as current retro gaming. I have no real drive to play anything from the PS2 aside from a few games that have already been re-released. The Xbox I just want Otogi and Panzer Dragoon.

Even now if I'm not playing something from the last few years I'm playing Donkey Kong on MAME or Mike Tyson' Punch-Out!!


I could tell a hundred stories about how my cousin's lose things, they have lost countless systems and games, all because they know they can get a replacement from the bank of mom & dad at any point. But it doesn't seem that they care about that too much , as they don't seem to care if a game gets lost. They don't really demand a replacement. They just move onto something else in their collection. Man if I lost a game, even one game, I would be REALLY upset, especially if I lost the memory card or game with my save files on it. But this doesn't seem to phase them. They eat near their laptops and their laptops are full of crumbs and dirt. They each have their own laptop, one has an alienware, though I don't think that is so unusual these days (but I don't think kids need alienware, most won't even know how to use it to its full capacity). They have thrown out a Nintendo Wii because they didn't want it anymore. My other cousin owns almost every Nintendo game from the current gen and has payed full price for every single one and has no qualms about fleecing his parents for $50 games every time one comes out. The parents happily purchase the games as soon as he whines for one, btw he is EXCELLENT at whining! He bought a 3DS for full price on launch day and barely played it since no games were out for it, worse yet he traded in a perfectly good DSi to get it and probably got pennies for it, hopefully the price drop taught him a lesson but I don't think so. When my cousins talk about games they had in the past its either "I lost that game" or "demons ate it" no lie they actually tell me that demons ate their games, and they are more than old enough to be able to separate reality from fiction. All my cousin's have had iPods starting at age 8 and when the iPods broke or got outdated (aka as soon as a new one comes out) they got new ones immediately, provided by the parents. They have been through I don't know how many. This was also back when iPods cost a lot more than they do today and iTunes had a million restrictions (its not like that now).

The only saving grace here is none of the families I know have pets, so there are no pets to wreck things.

Most kids who only got games for birthday and Xmas treated their games like gold and genuinely appreciated each game. Now games are disposable and are given to kids by their parents on demand, there is no waiting for birthday or Christmas to get a game, they get it when they want it at any price. Systems are usually given for holiday presents but games are on demand. I don't even know if they appreciate the games, since they are given and are now expected by the children on demand, and anything not given on demand creates whining, which leads to the parents giving in without question. I haven't seen a kid who was not like this, even if the family is not rich, and even if the family cannot afford things for their child (out comes the credit card!), the child gets whatever they want when they want it.

Its even worse with smartphones, I know a lot of parents who pay each month for their kid to have a smartphone including data plan, and we all know how much smartphones cost. We aren't talking about prepaid either we are talking about the latest iPhone on Verizon or AT&T. I didn't realize a child now comes with a $100 or more smartphone bill monthly starting at age 8, that is definitely a huge cost that parents of previous generations of children did not have to worry about paying.

Edited by SaraAB, 19 April 2012 - 12:24 AM.


#115 IAmTheCheapestGamer

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:49 AM

My one buddies' one nephew is like this. He had a 360 already and just got the PS3 for Christmas(and his grandparents got him a flat screen TV to play it on). But he apparently treats his games like crap and even forgets about them unless they're something that he really likes.

Case in point: I bought a beat up copy of GTA IV for PS3 from a Salvation Army a while ago. I gave it to him since I didn't wanna test it in my system. It looked like someone tried cleaning it with an abrasive/acidic cleaner, as there were all sorts of pit marks and small scratches on it.

He still talks about that game, but has completely forgotten about the copy of Ratchet & Clank: All 4 One that he got with his PS3 bundle at Christmas. Not to mention he gleefully agreed to trade me his Little Big Planet 2 Special Edition from the bundle in exchange for a sealed(but pre-owned) Gears Of War 3 that I got for $12 used from BB and a copy of Rage for PS3 that I paid $5 for from BB.

So all together it cost me $21 if counting the GTA IV copy to get a $50-60 game from him, meaning he still doesn't know or care about the value of his games and likely doesn't have to try and earn them himself.

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#116 Daw19yoyo

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:27 AM

I, being of the generation you are talking about, have an opinion on the subject that I hope you would like to hear. You all do have valid points on the fact that my generation does not "value" our games as much. Not so. The times have changed in good ways and bad. You all most likely had games you enjoyed and did not enjoy, correct? Same here but with a difference. There are more games to enjoy then before. Citing wikipedia there were "785" NES games right? The Xbox 360 has 3620 games if you include Arcade, Indie, Kinect, and retail.

The amount of games released, and for a lower price in comparison, means that a child does not have to become attached to the amount of games he has. We all have backlogs now and again too, right? You also never really comment on games that don't interest you ether.

One other reason games might not be as cherished is how they are packaged, Older games were cartridges that had disposible boxes that were well made and felt nice to hold. New games are discs that are put into plastic unremarkable cases that are, literally, a dime a dozen.

One more thing, you do have to recognize that older systems were less complicated and harder to break. Xbox, not so much.

To add to the normal conversation: NES games are less common. I.E. Price goes up. Also invisible hand is complete BS. The market runs itself. If supply is high and want is low, price falls. If supply is low and want increases, price goes up. If want increases and supply is the same, prices rise. If want is low and supply is the same, price falls. Price fixing may occur but at such a small amount that it doesn't really matter. OP secondary market did not go out of hand, want increased.


But, please prove me wrong if I am.


By the way, please try to ignore spelling and typing mistakes, I was using a new keyboard that was spaced differently then my old one.
Your new riddle of the day...year.... Forever?:
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could Chuck Norris?
All of it.

(lol) Its a Spaceship!

Dawness:
adjective
1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers, multiplied by ∞. :whee:

#117 Confucius

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:30 AM

Also invisible hand is complete BS. The market runs itself.


Ummm... that's what invisible hand means.

Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#118 Daw19yoyo

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:31 AM

My one buddies' one nephew is like this. He had a 360 already and just got the PS3 for Christmas(and his grandparents got him a flat screen TV to play it on). But he apparently treats his games like crap and even forgets about them unless they're something that he really likes.

Case in point: I bought a beat up copy of GTA IV for PS3 from a Salvation Army a while ago. I gave it to him since I didn't wanna test it in my system. It looked like someone tried cleaning it with an abrasive/acidic cleaner, as there were all sorts of pit marks and small scratches on it.

He still talks about that game, but has completely forgotten about the copy of Ratchet & Clank: All 4 One that he got with his PS3 bundle at Christmas. Not to mention he gleefully agreed to trade me his Little Big Planet 2 Special Edition from the bundle in exchange for a sealed(but pre-owned) Gears Of War 3 that I got for $12 used from BB and a copy of Rage for PS3 that I paid $5 for from BB.

So all together it cost me $21 if counting the GTA IV copy to get a $50-60 game from him, meaning he still doesn't know or care about the value of his games and likely doesn't have to try and earn them himself.


Sorry for second post, but I needed to say something else.

IAmTheCheapestGamer, while you point is slightly valued factor in play value. Did he enjoy All for one? Most likely not. Will e enjoy Gears 3? Most likely yes. He traded it for play value not monetary value.

Sorry wanted to get that off my chest.
Your new riddle of the day...year.... Forever?:
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could Chuck Norris?
All of it.

(lol) Its a Spaceship!

Dawness:
adjective
1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers, multiplied by ∞. :whee:

#119 Daw19yoyo

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:33 AM

Ummm... that's what invisible hand means.


I feel like the word doesn't explain it well. "Invisable Hand" Makes it seem like there is no rhyme or reason. It seems like it should be called a "Perpetual Motion Device". It keeps itself going.
Your new riddle of the day...year.... Forever?:
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could Chuck Norris?
All of it.

(lol) Its a Spaceship!

Dawness:
adjective
1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers, multiplied by ∞. :whee:

#120 Confucius

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:38 AM

I feel like the word doesn't explain it well. "Invisable Hand" Makes it seem like there is no rhyme or reason. It seems like it should be called a "Perpetual Motion Device". It keeps itself going.


I'm assuming you're in high school so I won't jump down your throat.

The "invisible hand" is an economics term defined by Adam Smith in the wealth of nations. It's not just something I made up.

Ees7Y.jpg


I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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