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CAGcast #280: Half CAGcast, Half Mass Effect 3 Spoilercast


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#61 4thHorseman

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:24 PM

I might as well ask this here:

I may have misheard, but I think it was during a confrontation with a Reaper in ME3 where it talks with Shepherd. Did it mention a "creator" in the Reaper universe? As in, Reapers could make a return eventually?

I could have totally heard wrong...

#62 usickenme

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

Okay, I find myself in a weird place because I wasn't crazy about the ending myself (I liked the concept but also think they didn't execute it clearly enough) yet I feel like I'm one of the few lone defenders online. This is weird because in real life everyone I know who played the game loved the ending and thought I was being overly negative so personally I've been shocked to see the hate online. I thought the ending perfectly matched the themes of the series.

Let me retort some of the comments on this show:

1) First of all, I don't know why people keep pushing this narrative about how "no sites or magazines talked about the ending". Off the top of my head, the reviews for PC Gamer, Gametrailers, 1UP and Gamespy all dedicate space to saying that some people may be dissatisfied with how it concludes.

2) Second, I find it baffling that the same people saying the ending "makes no sense" will then defend the plausibility of the "indoctrination theory" which has got to be right up there with Loose Change as far as making up crazy shit until it fits.

Spoiler



spot on dude. I always found the "indoctrine" theory at least twice a dumb as anything else.

Also Bioware themselves have said "the catalyst is appearing as something familiar to Shepard". Didn't anyone ever see Contact? Also these creatures were hinted at in ME1.


p.s Please, Please Please ---Cheapy. Do your Javik impression at least once a show!

Edited by usickenme, 19 April 2012 - 01:16 AM.


#63 sinewav

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:44 PM

I might as well ask this here:

I may have misheard, but I think it was during a confrontation with a Reaper in ME3 where it talks with Shepherd. Did it mention a "creator" in the Reaper universe? As in, Reapers could make a return eventually?

I could have totally heard wrong...


You seem to be referring to the Reaper Boss on the Quarian homeworld (Rannoch). After that Reaper is defeated it makes reference to Sheperd that someone or something is controlling them and by implication that you will be facing them. I don't believe he was saying that they would return but more to get Shepard to understand that they (the reapers) are not the ones in charge..

#64 metallicoholic

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:51 AM

Always welcome an early podcast, even if it's one that I'm only half-interested in. I recently bought both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 so I debated listening to the spoilers, deciding in the end to just listen to it but I was lost about two minutes in. By the time I get to Mass Effect 3 I'll probably not even remember who lives/dies.

In the case of the Vita I think having more than one option is what is ultimately working against the system, as Wombat stated. Your average consumer probably has no idea that the Vita even comes in two different models. You think a mom that's walking into Shipwreck's local Target looking to buy their child the new Vita is going to be able to decipher the difference between 3G and Wi-Fi model? I know we live in an age where 3G isn't a foreign term anymore but someone that already has a phone or a tablet is not going to add another monthly charge so that they can game online. Especially not when the PS3 offers it for free.
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#65 Raider

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:59 AM

Just wanted to chime in and say that Cheapy's Javik impression makes me lol every time I hear it. Keep up the great work everyone.

#66 detectiveconan16

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:33 PM

It took me six years to get a PSP, I caved into a Nintendo DS about a year after the Lite came out. Sure the Vita's a nice system, but are you willing to spend that much money, even with their "reasonable" price drop?
If Vita had this mascot, instead of Butler, maybe that timespan will decrease.

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#67 Tengaport

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

I hate to say it guys, but I am finding the CAGCast to be increasingly insufferable to listen to lately. Cheapy’s raging hard-on for the outline is suffocating the show.

Honestly, listening to you guys run through the new release list and NPD numbers is as entertaining as a power point presentation.

What happened to just talking about the games you are playing or games you are looking forward to? I’m a CAG for Christ’s sake, talk more about games that are worth picking up for cheap rather than full priced, new releases that suck.

I used to enjoy listening to the CAGCast to hear your thoughts and opinions on games & gaming news as well as Cheapy’s shit stories - but the show now severely lacks those conversations. It’s just stick to the boring outline, and phone it in.

Your once witty banter has also devolved into a single person talking at a time, with the others just picking their asses until whomever is speaking is done. How about interjecting, asking some questions, keeping the conversation flowing. Instead you just get Cheapy saying “all right” and “moving on” after everything Wombat says. Call him out for being retarded or saying something stupid. Seriously man, where is the love!?!?!

You guys used to be masters of this, it was what drew me into the CAGCast years ago and made it my go-to podcast to cure my boring commute. Hell, my wife even started listening - What the hell has happened?

I suggest you guys get your heads and your asses wired together or I will take a giant shit on you.

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#68 Backlash

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:47 PM

In the case of the Vita I think having more than one option is what is ultimately working against the system, as Wombat stated. Your average consumer probably has no idea that the Vita even comes in two different models. You think a mom that's walking into Shipwreck's local Target looking to buy their child the new Vita is going to be able to decipher the difference between 3G and Wi-Fi model? I know we live in an age where 3G isn't a foreign term anymore but someone that already has a phone or a tablet is not going to add another monthly charge so that they can game online. Especially not when the PS3 offers it for free.


I always wonder about that argument: Mom goes to buy a Vita and sees there's two choices. She doesn't know the difference so she just says "Fuck it, I'm not buying either." Really?

Not a perfect analogy, but the Kindle has a zillion different models and that doesn't seem to hurt its sales any. For the record, I have only the wifi Kindle and my wife has the wifi/3G model.

Anyway, the guys talk about how the 3G is useless since you can't download games on it. I assumed it was mainly for playing games online that you've already downloaded.

#69 geflow

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:25 PM

been loving the opening music recently CreapyD! great show overall, keep up the good work!

#70 EvilIA

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:09 PM

I'll listen this weekend.

This is likely a better question for the CagBag.

I haven't any of payed these yet (yea, blame the backlog). Would it be better to play them all on the 360 for character import. Or could I go me1 (360), then switch to playing on the PS3? I like the thought of the extra missions on the PS3 ME2 version, but if the rewards are better for character import.

#71 Kazaganthi

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:19 PM

So...Mass Effect isn't Serenity then?

While I do agree the non-ME3 part of the podcast is short, there just isn't any games coming out recently that they would talk about. It happens every year, just a long lull of no good releases. At least last year we had the gem of Portal 2.


#72 Microshock

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:22 AM

Cheapy, stop telling them to watch Drive. It's not a good movie. It's one of these movies that tries so hard tto be artsy and moody and shit and just isn't. It's boring. You get Ryan Gosling staring at people/nothing most of the time. The movie moves along at a snail's pace.
I'd say it's an OK movie, it has some cool parts and Bryan Craston is in it so thumbs up there.

There's not even that much DRIVING in the movie!
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#73 DarkNessBear

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:55 AM

I think it was mentioned in the 'Final Hours of Mass Effect 3' how long it took to come up with ending

Spoiler
But more importantly the ending, unlike the rest of the story WAS NOT peer reviewed.

And as far the whole debate about artistic integrity, happy v. sad endings, whether or not its' what people wanted isn't really the issue. It's the severe lack of quality that has people upset. The fact that the ending does go against the entire series up to that point brings peoples' blood to a boil.

And before I forget, this sort of thing did happen to Metroid a couple of years ago, and the similarities between Mass Effect 3's ending and that game, in regards to how it puts developers at odds with fans, what can the series do now, etc. is exactly what happened to Metroid two years ago. Nintendo hasn't exactly responded in the same way Bioware has (I.E. they haven't) but it still doesn't make the situation any less shitty for everyone.

Yea listen to this man.

One of the writers (I believe weekes) stated that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters were the only ones in control of the ending and figured it out shut away from the rest (not usual). He stated that Casey is a brilliant guy and they often have to reel him back down to reality when creating the Mass Effect universe. It's clear that Casey went balls out by himself for the ending...

And about the indoc. theory
Spoiler

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#74 drkshr

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:33 AM

Cheapy, stop telling them to watch Drive. It's not a good movie. It's one of these movies that tries so hard tto be artsy and moody and shit and just isn't. It's boring. You get Ryan Gosling staring at people/nothing most of the time. The movie moves along at a snail's pace.
I'd say it's an OK movie, it has some cool parts and Bryan Craston is in it so thumbs up there.

There's not even that much DRIVING in the movie!


One view.

I found it to be a very well paced movie. I even watched it a bit tired, but didn't feel at any moment that I should shut it off and finish another a day.

#75 DarkNessBear

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:00 AM

Really didn't understand all the confusion for ME3. Felt like most of it made sense, just a tad vague and stupid at times.

Regarding the indoctrination theory with the little boy: In the beginning of the game, other people do see the kid. When they are trying to escape on the ship, you see one of the soldiers rush the kid onto the shuttle. Of course your other teammates didn't see him, because they weren't there at the time.


What? That never happened.

And the ending is bad. It's fact at this point.

#76 KingBroly

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:07 AM

Yea listen to this man.

One of the writers (I believe weekes) stated that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters were the only ones in control of the ending and figured it out shut away from the rest (not usual). He stated that Casey is a brilliant guy and they often have to reel him back down to reality when creating the Mass Effect universe. It's clear that Casey went balls out by himself for the ending...

And about the indoc. theory

Spoiler


It could still be true. Bioware's PR team is full of shit and everyone knows it. And given the
Spoiler
You're right though, it'd still require a new ending that takes actual craft to make people happy.
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#77 Ravenhood

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:46 AM

Bioware said the ending is the ending. Indoctrination didn't happen. Bioware will be adding some cut scenes to make things clearer via DLC.

ME 3 spoiler mistake you made.

Spoiler


I have yet to see a quote specifically stating that the indoctrination theory is incorrect. If you could provide a link to that, it'd be appreciated.

Personally, I think the indoctrination theory is a little more believable than taking the ending at face value. Either is possible, but both have severe issues attached to them.
1. If what you see is really what happens, then there's more plotholes than can honestly be believed. The things occurring on-screen simply do not make sense, no matter which way you swing it.
2. If the indoctrination theory is correct, then the plotholes become irrelavent as it hadn't actually happened. However, this means that Bioware/EA deliberately left out a proper, conclusive ending to either create another sequel, or DLC to expand the ending, either through the cutscenes, or some small amount of gameplay. We can all try to look at what Bioware said about the upcoming extended ending DLC, but anything about their plans could change.

I could get into a pile of little details about how much really is broken about the ending, but all of that information is found in the AngryJoeShow video, and ACAVYOS' indoctrination theory video.


Now, onto direct responses to the spoiler-talk:

@42:25: Questioning the "new" ship in ME3:
Spoiler


@44:10: Gender-based decision on Ashley/Kaiden:
Spoiler


@46:35: Shepards' fate at the final decision:
Spoiler


@47:40: The identity of the Catalyst:
Spoiler


@49:18: Wombat's number of endings:
Spoiler


@54:46: "What the hell has been solved?":
Spoiler


@56:25 - 56:40: The mass relays:
Spoiler


@1:01:35: EDI's 'working parts':
Spoiler


@1:01:45 - 1:02:05: Mordin:
Spoiler


@1:07:50: Any other Spectres?:
Spoiler


@1:15:25 - 1:15:38: Galactic Readiness and Hammer:
Spoiler



This was a great show, and I was happy to hear more ME talk after listening to the Rooster Teeth spoiler-cast prior. I really liked the new game ideas you all came up with to extend the universe, espectially the Spectre-recruiting idea Wombat pitched. What would you all think about a prequel game where you played as the Protheans prior to the end of their cycle, or a game taking place during the First Contact War? Would these stories be better suited for other media? (The First Contact War has already been somewhat touched on in the comics, revealing a sort of origin story on the Illusive Man, but I don't know how much of the war was expanded on.)

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#78 CozmoKhan

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:26 PM

Ravenhood: Great "direct responses." It helped me to understand what little things I missed, even though my Readiness was at 98% and my Military Strength was over 6700. There were just a couple of missions I missed while on the Citadel.

Like Cheapy's ass-shot of Miranda, there is a good view of EDI's camel toe showing her working parts.

#79 leylines

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

What? That never happened.

Yeah, very specifically in the popular indoctrination video they show that nobody helps the kid onto the shuttle.

This weeks cagcast was difficult to listen to because they got the lore incorrect quite a lot. Shipwreck was the most disappointing because usually he is the most knowledgeable and levelheaded but his insistence that Ashley had to live if you had a male Shepard was annoying. That said, Cheapy, I still love the Jamaican accent and I still love the show but not this episode so much.

#80 shipwreck

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:44 PM

Yeah, very specifically in the popular indoctrination video they show that nobody helps the kid onto the shuttle.

This weeks cagcast was difficult to listen to because they got the lore incorrect quite a lot. Shipwreck was the most disappointing because usually he is the most knowledgeable and levelheaded but his insistence that Ashley had to live if you had a male Shepard was annoying. That said, Cheapy, I still love the Jamaican accent and I still love the show but not this episode so much.


It's easy to get confused when you played the first game but didn't finish it. Then add the fact that the same sex character is dead in Mass Effect 2 if you didn't import a save and it's easy to get things messed up in a game that's 100 hours long with branching paths and cursory plots that is added through iPhone games, graphic novels, and novels.
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#81 thorbahn3

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:50 PM

I have yet to see a quote specifically stating that the indoctrination theory is incorrect. If you could provide a link to that, it'd be appreciated.


http://terrangaming....c-confirmed/395

http://angryjoeshow....dlc-discussion/
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#82 Ravenhood

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:50 PM

Ravenhood: Great "direct responses." It helped me to understand what little things I missed, even though my Readiness was at 98% and my Military Strength was over 6700. There were just a couple of missions I missed while on the Citadel.

Like Cheapy's ass-shot of Miranda, there is a good view of EDI's camel toe showing her working parts.


Thanks; most of the Citadel missions were fairly unimportant, but there were a few here and there that definitely shouldn't be missed. I've played each game making sure I never missed anything, though, so I tend to spend far too much time there. >_<

Yeah, very specifically in the popular indoctrination video they show that nobody helps the kid onto the shuttle.

This weeks cagcast was difficult to listen to because they got the lore incorrect quite a lot. Shipwreck was the most disappointing because usually he is the most knowledgeable and levelheaded but his insistence that Ashley had to live if you had a male Shepard was annoying. That said, Cheapy, I still love the Jamaican accent and I still love the show but not this episode so much.


Shipwreck's mentioned it a few times, but he never got around to finishing the first game, and it came out a few years back now anyways, so it's understandable if someone forgets a detail. Besides, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who plays the game save the same-sex teammate, so it's a very forgivable mistake.

Bioware is partially to blame as well, with so many extra stories and expansions of the universe in non-game format that many people may not ever know about. Most of the games detail things very well, but there are some instances that simply don't work. Like Eva Core's involvement and why she was important outside of being EDI's new body; or, why Udina was the councilor when, in some players' cases, they chose Anderson and the only explanation we got was "oh, he quit". >_< And let's not forget Paul Grayson or Kai Leng, where anyone who's only played the games and hasn't read other material will have NO IDEA who they are.

http://terrangaming....c-confirmed/395

http://angryjoeshow....dlc-discussion/


I'm honestly glad you posted those links. I've read those before, and was hoping you had something else, because as I previously said, Bioware has made no direct statement on the indoctrination theory. All they've said is that the ending DLC will expand on what's happened, but as we all know, there is a discrepancy with the fan-base as to what exactly happened. Which means that, until this DLC is released and we all see what Bioware intended, the indoctrination theory is still a viable option. Bioware/Casey Hudson saying that they aren't changing the ending doesn't mean that the indoctrination theory isn't correct; it just means that they'll give players more clarity as to what, exactly, happened.

I don't want to get into a discussion about the theories and how full of plotholes the ending is, but if the indoctrination theory isn't correct, then Bioware has a lot to explain away, considering how broken things will be if the relays really are destroyed.

Edited by Ravenhood, 20 April 2012 - 09:59 PM.
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#83 KingBroly

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:39 AM

The beginning and the end of the game were also the last parts of the story that were done. And they're both noticeably worse in quality compared to the rest of the game.
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#84 usickenme

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:01 AM

but if the indoctrination theory isn't correct, then Bioware has a lot to explain away, considering how broken things will be if the relays really are destroyed.



The problem is that Bioware could say that and people still wouldn't listen. They've been saying things people ignore for this indoctrination theory. Or you could read this..

http://www.gamefront...ation-theory/4/

"Hudson did say the indoctrination idea was once considered, but then it was scrapped. “And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard’s movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)”

Granted you could parse this out and claim that it was just a gameplay thing but then you'd only be proving my point. IMO, it is open to interpretation.


The biggest and most logical argument against it is, if it were true, there is NO ending for ME3.



As for the relays. There are many dormant relays.

#85 Hast

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:19 AM

(TLDR; I think the Giantbomb quote summarizes everything quite well.)

Nice to see the podcast getting to the end of the Mass Effect storyline.

Regarding the ending I think the following dialog on the Giantbomb podcast (their first discussion on ME3 IIRC, only Jeff had finished it by then):

Vinny “OK, what if we just had Shepard shit in his hand and throw it in the camera?”
Jeff "OK..."
Vinny “Would that make it a better ending?”
Jeff "It would be more honest”

(And to put it into some context they had just discussed poop-flinging monkeys or Pokemons which is why it came up.)

Personally I don't buy into the indoctrination theory ending for a couple of reasons. (Eg the Prothean VI with information about the location of the Catalyst say it detects no presence of indoctrinated people when you are interacting with it.) In the art book the child is described as being a representation of the dying human race that Shepard pictures. Basically at least I do not believe that the dream child and the star child are supposed to be the same character.

Which brings us to the big problem of the ending in my mind. The way I see it they just didn't quite know how to end it. So they threw in a bunch of stuff and hoped something would stick. That's why we have the strange "indoctrination tendrils" during the dialog with Anderson and TIM. And the complete bonkers things with the Star Child. As well as the Normandy leaving, that was "supposed" to give resolution for the players what happened with the crew. That it makes no sense at all is irrelevant I guess. There were some deleted scenes which does explain it more (Shepard tells the squad mates to "get out of here" before they are hit by Harbingers beam.)

Although I don't think that the destruction of the Mass Relays is as galaxy ending as first thought. When I saw that ending I figured it would result in a war on Earth for any remaining resources (the Quarians and Turians can't eat human food, so they would just die). But they do have faster than light travel that doesn't use the mass relays.

From what I've seen there is only one line in the games (and it's in ME1 in a conversation with Williams) that talk about this. Apparently it takes about 24 hours to travel 12 light years with this method (meaning you can cross the galaxy in about 40 years). It does require element zero as fuel and it requires stops at gravity wells (planets) to bleed off excess energy. But it does mean that the stranded fleets can go home and a galaxy can be rebuilt. (BTW the Protheans built a mass relay on Illios which is used at the end of the first game.)

Personally I think that the end state of the galaxy is quite acceptable. At first I figured that everything was ruined but there are ways to rebuild.

However I strongly feel like this is SHIT THEY SHOULD PUT IN THE ENDING! They could scrap the stupid Normandy crash and the Buzz Aldrin cameo and talk about how the galaxy handles this new problem. (Perfect opportunity to show differences in a paragon and renegade playthrough as well, paragon players have sown cooperation between the races which means they rebuild faster or something.)

In summary: The ending was very poorly made, and ever worse was the execution of it. They seemed focused on adding "mystery" instead of adding resolution and answers.

For me personally it means that I'm unlikely to get the next ME game (if there is one) at full price. And I've bought the previous ones in collectors editions. I still haven't bought DA2 because I found the first one lack-luster, but I figure it can be worth a 75% Steam discount or something. (And the same would go for ME4.) And that's assuming that the reviews are good of course.

#86 just-joe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:01 AM

You know for guys who seem to love the game, you all don't seem to remember much of it. As a whole, the game for me was chore to get through. The repetition of going back and forth to the Citadel, the shorting communication between you and companions as well as NPCs, the lack of exploration and the vague side quest that have you scouring the map only to find out you don't have complete it without doing a priority mission which you don't want to do or else you risk locking out another side quest. The game just seemed more steam lined and a bit lazy. Sorry I don't agree with everyone here, but that's how I feel. Keep up the good work guys.

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#87 usickenme

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:36 PM

Which brings us to the big problem of the ending in my mind. The way I see it they just didn't quite know how to end it. So they threw in a bunch of stuff and hoped something would stick. .


Sorry but after probably spending 8 -9 years on the game I doubt there are just trying random stuff. Kind of belittles the process a bit. I will say I think perhaps they were (like Lost) trying to be too clever and too vague (Let the player's own mind decide what happened).

#88 DarkNessBear

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:15 AM

Nm got it : P
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#89 Horsewarrior of Janjaweed

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:18 PM

Sorry but after probably spending 8 -9 years on the game I doubt there are just trying random stuff. Kind of belittles the process a bit. I will say I think perhaps they were (like Lost) trying to be too clever and too vague (Let the player's own mind decide what happened).


They didn't spend 8-9 years on the game. At the very least, ME1's lead writer didn't even touch ME3. It was confirmed that if there was some master plan for the trilogy (dark energy), it was thrown out. ME3 was made on it's own, and it's likely to have been very, very rushed. That's just how EA works.

If you want to spend an hour watching really well voiced criticism (And not Angry Joe... being Angry Joe), some dude made a few redlettermedia (The huge star wars deconstruction guy) style videos.

The Ending:


Indoctrination Theery:


Bioware's Responce:


#90 bickle

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:48 PM

Sorry but after probably spending 8 -9 years on the game I doubt there are just trying random stuff. Kind of belittles the process a bit.

I think that's precisely why it's so upsetting - after all tips time and effort, the ending is just a mishmash of jumbled concepts. I think they belittled the process, not us.