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RPG Thread XVI Supports Project Eternity's Kickstarter


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#1051 Indignate

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    Hell Yeah, I’m the Motherfucking Princess!

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:20 AM

You got to close those one before the mods do.

Fight the power.

Fuck the police.

#1052 raiden_86

raiden_86

Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:22 AM

card game is awesome. there are some sites you can play it pvp and trade cards, kinda cool.

#1053 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:26 AM

When you don't spend 20+ hours playing the card game and another 20+ maxing out everything for the Fuck of it, yeah it kind of is.


Yeah I suppose I missed a lot, but I was taking my time, really. Spent a long while drawing at some points, grinding more than I tend to prefer in my RPGs.

#1054 The Crotch

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:30 AM

So. Panzer. What's next on the list?

... he says, knowing that there is only one correct answer.

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#1055 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:38 AM

well shucks crotch, you just put money down on this project, shouldn't i wait for the remastered version?

#1056 The Crotch

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:42 AM

PE is gonna be baller as Fuck, but it's not the game that will change the nature of a man.

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#1057 cindersphere

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:05 AM

It's very much a game, and it can't be argued otherwise. You use directional input to traverse a game world, where by walking into triggers put in place by a developer you progress -- activating scripts for sounds, narrative, cutscene, etc... It is essential interactivity, the fact can't be dodged. This is about as game like as a game can get.

Now, the reason people throw around the sentiment "it's not an actual game" is for two reasons. One is to merely dismiss Dear Esther as the horribly boring experience it is, "it's so bad it's not even a game." Simple and effective hyperbole, sure, but people are wrong in taking it so far as to actually believing it's not a piece of interactive software. It is, and I'll at least give it that much.

The other reason people say this is to shield the game from any kind of criticism, as Avellone is doing. "I liked Dear Esther, but it's not really a game." Implying that others are analyzing it incorrectly and should give it some breathing room as its own unique medium. Really, I think this just speaks to how bad Dear Esther truly is. It's design is so meaningless and unsatisfactory to the touch of a player that even its fans can't say they played a real game.

Either way you're insulting the developers of Dear Esther.

But yes, there are actually fans of this game. I just hope Avellone is drunk and not one of them.


I disagree, a game is more that just a game world (what is a game world exactly?) that you traverse with a directional input (what about visual novels? Aren't they considered games thought they lack directional input?). A video game is a interactive piece of media in which the player interacts with the world or the storyline of a game. However I believe that Dear Esther does neither. When I played the game I felt that the game world was decidedly irreverent of the player, with player interaction being limited to the triggers you eventually step over, which to me is not a game. To me this is the same as the Cantina area from the Lego Star Wars series, where you could control a character in the Cantina yet could not influence neither the plot nor the world. It was simply a menu screen done with animated characters, in which you eventually chose the content of the game. To me this is the same thing that Dear Esther was, a content delivery system with an interactive menu.
Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. - Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011

#1058 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:17 AM

A video game is a interactive piece of media in which the player interacts with the world or the storyline of a game.


You've defined Dear Esther. Just because it is insanely weak does not neuter itself of the definition. By this logic many games are just linear pathways that trigger "content delivery."

I feel like if Dear Esther allowed you to pick up a cup off a dining room table, people would suddenly be more comfortable calling it a game. I don't identify with that view at all.

#1059 Rodimus

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:21 AM

I'm playing through the Wonder Boy Vintage Collection. Beat the first two games. Being an arcade game the first one isn't much of an RPG. It was okay. The second game however is amazing. I was shocked to see this game was released in 1991. Never had a Genesis growing up but this game made me wish I did. I'm sure I would've loved it.

Now I'm off to play Monster World IV. This is the one I'm really excited about since it never came out in the states. I really love 2D Platform Action RPGs.

#1060 eldergamer

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:01 PM

(watch this get lost if this thread gets closed)

Suicide Mission time in Mass Effect 2.

Was tempted to switch up my styles and play Shep as a Michael Scott type. "Okay, big dumb Krogan you're going down this tube for some highly technical work. Expendable DLC Mercenary guy? You're going to lead my second team. Let's go get my people back!"

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#1061 The Crotch

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:34 PM

Well, I read it...

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#1062 Indignate

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:57 PM

I did too, I guess.

#1063 cindersphere

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:55 AM

You've defined Dear Esther. Just because it is insanely weak does not neuter itself of the definition. By this logic many games are just linear pathways that trigger "content delivery."

I feel like if Dear Esther allowed you to pick up a cup off a dining room table, people would suddenly be more comfortable calling it a game. I don't identify with that view at all.

I usually don't really think about games so excuse me if I make a few mistakes writing about them, as I did with the part you quoted. It isn't that the player must interact with the world, but that the world must interact with the game. Dear Esther does not, it is a walking content delivery system, as I stated earlier. However this is not necessarily due to not touching things, if a player never touched a single thing in Dear Esther, I would still consider it a game if the world interacted with the player. It doesn't, and never did. Contrast this something like Stanley Parable, where there is as little interaction as there was in Dear Esther but there are subtle differences based on how on went through the game. Dear Esther doesn't have this. There is no interaction, no cause and effect. It is a flat virtual painting one experiences, but does not interact with.

As for the many games being like it I would say that this is not true. Even in games like Call of Duty where you are being ferreted from shooting gallery to shooting gallery the game is interacting with you. Based on how you shoot, the tactics you take, or the weapons you bring there is a difference in how the world will treat you. Even basic NES games had this push and pull, where an action produces a change in enemy formations or tactics. Heck even Pac-Man had this basic push and pull system. I think the basic at the core level Dear Esther had no player agency, which I believe is integral to a game.
Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. - Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011

#1064 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:26 AM

Spoiler

I usually don't really think about games so excuse me if I make a few mistakes writing about them


I'm just throwing my side of this, is all. Nothing scientific here.

snip


I agree with what you're saying about the game's lack of player agency and all, but I do believe it exists if only in a ghost of a sense. You enter a shore side house and you hear noises in the next room. You look upwards at a stairwell and something whips over the balcony above. You don't need to do either of those actions but the game is prepared for your choices. It's built with player interactivity in mind. There's a developer's touch here albeit incredibly misguided and weak.

I'll concede that the game is a strange case because it so uninteresting in every way imaginable, which makes it hard to pin down. Is it a game? Well it's certainly not a visual novel. It's something, though.

#1065 Indignate

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 01:54 AM

Based on how you shoot, the tactics you take, or the weapons you bring there is a difference in how the world will treat you.


Maybe it was just a bad example, but that game, along with most shooters, don't treat you any different in that they only just throw guys at you.

#1066 R. Kasahara

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

I'm a bit further than my first visit to Haud Village (
Spoiler
), but I just had to mention that this is the worst piece of game music I have ever heard :cry: -

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#1067 eldergamer

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:34 PM

Mass Effect 2 suicide mission done. Game over. Poor Tali.

Once I get burnt out (which feels like it may be soon) on Aedis Eclipse, I'm starting Yggarda Union on PSP.

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#1068 cindersphere

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

Maybe it was just a bad example, but that game, along with most shooters, don't treat you any different in that they only just throw guys at you.

I don't think that's true. While you may only see it that way, each enemy has a rudimentary AI that does react to you, add on top of that the ability to switch weapons and shoot from various areas all give a player a certain amount of influence in any given situation. Certain weapons allow for certain tactics and for the most part most games allow you the freedom to carry them from one area to the next. They do not just throw guys at you, that game would be a Time Crisis or any light gun game really, a more sophisticated version of this idea would be the quake games though. However I maintain COD actually places a greater emphasis upon player actions and dealing with the consequences of your actions, such as picked up a shotgun and entered a fighting area with wide expanses will change how you interact with the world, just as much as picking up a sniper rifle in tight closed spaces. Beyond that most shooters have differences in accuracy ratings, area of effects on weapons, differences in hit boxing, and changes in movement speeds, all of which push back on you and you upon them.

I will say your sentiments would line up with my thoughts on every fighting game a few years ago, where they are are essentially the same game with a dude in front of you to fight. However a friend of mine recently showed me the differences between not only characters but the systems within each fighting game. You may not perceive the way a game reacts to you and the differences it produces, but that does not make them present. But thats just my quick thoughts on your thoughts.

****
Anyway I am finally playing Dragon Quest 8 and so far I really am not digging it. It just seems so forced to me. It seems like the game is purposefully vague in many ways just to make you explore, which would be fine if the world was worth exploring and not a flat plane with the occasional red chest. For anyone who has played it and remembers the game, does it pick up after the dog goes evil, or is this about how good the game is going to be until the end?
Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. - Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011

#1069 GhostShark

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:55 PM

I remember Dragon Quest 8 being awesome from start-to-finish, topped off with a very memorable soundtrack.

Edited by GhostShark, 19 October 2012 - 11:14 PM.

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#1070 Indignate

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:44 PM

I don't think that's true. While you may only see it that way, each enemy has a rudimentary AI that does react to you, add on top of that the ability to switch weapons and shoot from various areas all give a player a certain amount of influence in any given situation. Certain weapons allow for certain tactics and for the most part most games allow you the freedom to carry them from one area to the next. They do not just throw guys at you, that game would be a Time Crisis or any light gun game really, a more sophisticated version of this idea would be the quake games though. However I maintain COD actually places a greater emphasis upon player actions and dealing with the consequences of your actions, such as picked up a shotgun and entered a fighting area with wide expanses will change how you interact with the world, just as much as picking up a sniper rifle in tight closed spaces. Beyond that most shooters have differences in accuracy ratings, area of effects on weapons, differences in hit boxing, and changes in movement speeds, all of which push back on you and you upon them.

I will say your sentiments would line up with my thoughts on every fighting game a few years ago, where they are are essentially the same game with a dude in front of you to fight. However a friend of mine recently showed me the differences between not only characters but the systems within each fighting game. You may not perceive the way a game reacts to you and the differences it produces, but that does not make them present. But thats just my quick thoughts on your thoughts.


I get that you can interact with and react from the game, but there are few FPSs that I feel react to you or your actions besides taking the rudimentary cover behind a wall or dodging a grenade. I mean, if I pull out a sniper, they don't take cover longer or try to flank me. If I pull out a shotgun, they don't really seem to try and create distance and use a long range weapon. You can be put so close to death and just wait behind cover the full 20 seconds to get your health back and the AI won't ever think to rush you unless they're designed to i.e. the Juggernaut in MW.

This is all just from CoD though, as that was the previous example. There are some shooters that do it better. Halo comes to mind as does L4D's Directer system, which is designed to react to how good or poorly you're performing. Again, I'm just talking about how the game reacts to you, rather then you having to react to the specificities of a weapon or the size of an area. I don't think CoD, and other shooters like it, does the 'reacting to you' part so well.

#1071 The Crotch

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:18 PM

what have i done

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#1072 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:12 AM

shoulda made a new thread

#1073 kainzero

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    scv good to go sir

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:42 AM

what the hell is CoD doing here
Every day's great at your Junes!

#1074 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:43 AM

you level up in CoD

#1075 zionoverfire

zionoverfire

Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:49 AM

Yeah I suppose I missed a lot, but I was taking my time, really. Spent a long while drawing at some points, grinding more than I tend to prefer in my RPGs.



I may also just have goofed off too much, I'm actually going to start up 8 soon since I'm nearing the end of 7. It will be interesting to see how much quicker my play-through is now, FF7 originally took me 100+ hours since I maxed out levels and materia, this time currently I'm nearing the end at 30 hours.

#1076 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 20 October 2012 - 02:19 AM

let me know how you feel going back to it, because i'm almost ashamed to say i enjoyed it quite a bit.

i mean, it's easy to point out how stupid the plot is, but i don't know, the outrageous nature of the game feels very intentional. much of the game is so bizarre that i don't think it's simply a result of poor planning. not in a crazy conspiracy theory sort of way, but the way it still highlights the real problems of the main character. i think the ending makes that very clear.

#1077 Indignate

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 02:29 AM

you level up in CoD


:grouphug:

#1078 R. Kasahara

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    The Artist Formerly Known as ブルー神羅

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 03:27 AM

let me know how you feel going back to it, because i'm almost ashamed to say i enjoyed it quite a bit.

i mean, it's easy to point out how stupid the plot is, but i don't know, the outrageous nature of the game feels very intentional. much of the game is so bizarre that i don't think it's simply a result of poor planning. not in a crazy conspiracy theory sort of way, but the way it still highlights the real problems of the main character. i think the ending makes that very clear.

For me, FF8 is the rare JRPG where the story is all kinds of weird and crazy, but the game is fun enough that I don't care. FFX-2 is like that for me as well.
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#1079 The Crotch

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    I was famous and I was powerful.

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:17 AM

So.

Cyberpunk 2077.

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#1080 panzerfaust

panzerfaust

Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:33 AM

guuuuh so good