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Rich dont pay enough but poor people dont pay any and people fine with that


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#271 Knoell

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:43 AM

When talking about welfare, we do have a tendency to avoid talking about the free rider problem.

However I think things are shitty enough for people on welfare that they either want to get out of that situation as soon as possible or are so hopelessly inept/destructive that we either need to give them some money and keep them pacified or give them no money and spend more keeping them incarcerated. It's a utilitarian decision, and I know the principle crowd will disagree, but I'm sayin


I am not agreeing with either side here, but this is simply not true. You may think that people on welfare are miserable because they are poor, and don't have all the nice things in life. However, it is not one extreme or the other. They aren't either drug addicts/too sick to work, or people who just need a bit of help who would like to be off welfare.

Many poor people are perfectly content with their lives as they are. You guys seem to take the "want" to better yourself for granted. And some would even take that last sentence as an insult.

This is not to say we shouldn't help those in need, but "need" is subjective.

#272 Javery

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:16 PM

Ok Javeryh, spending $200 a week you're buying primarily Organic and Non-GMO Project certified food right?


I'm not sure I know what this means. Are you implying that $200/week on food + toiletries for 5 people is a lot or a little or just about right? We do buy a lot of organic milk but it's the diapers and wipes that really get you.

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#273 slidecage

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:19 PM

Please. Tell us your plan to provide [until adulthood] for the children who did not ask to be born into those circumstances. You have the floor.

edit: I don't want to hear any cop out answers like castrating the parents or making the kids wards of the state. Those ideas never really work out. I want you to tell me how to provide for the children already forced into the world.


there are millions of people out there who want to adopt children so there is one way

or dont give them anymore cash when they cant support the children toss them in jail.


i love how you see on the news about how people can have 4 or 5 kids and cant afford them and everyone feels sorry for them..

but if someone goes out and has 4 or 5 dogs or other animals and can not afford them they go THESE PEOPLE NEED TO BE PUNISHED AND THROW IN JAIL
WOOOO I STINK

#274 dohdough

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:40 PM

I'm not sure I know what this means. Are you implying that $200/week on food + toiletries for 5 people is a lot or a little or just about right? We do buy a lot of organic milk but it's the diapers and wipes that really get you.

Yeah, $200 a week ins't excessive for 5 people. Diaper products aren't cheap.

there are millions of people out there who want to adopt children so there is one way

or dont give them anymore cash when they cant support the children toss them in jail.

i love how you see on the news about how people can have 4 or 5 kids and cant afford them and everyone feels sorry for them..

but if someone goes out and has 4 or 5 dogs or other animals and can not afford them they go THESE PEOPLE NEED TO BE PUNISHED AND THROW IN JAIL

Throw people in jail for having kids or take them away for being poor...LOLZ

You actually finally hit upon a valid point for once, albeit tangentially: people care more about pets and animals than poor, especially if they're black, kids.

#275 Javery

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:57 PM

Yeah, $200 a week ins't excessive for 5 people. Diaper products aren't cheap.


Plus, you go through them like crazy. She just started eating cereal so we are about to begin the "pooping every hour phase". Ugh. She is lucky she is so damn cute.

You actually finally hit upon a valid point for once, albeit tangentially: people care more about pets and animals than poor, especially if they're black, kids.


The news definitely does. If you can assume poor people aren't watching the news then they will get better ratings doing a story on animal abuse, unfortunately. I vaguely remember a time when the news would actually report the news instead of worrying about ratings and who is watching but I guess there are just too many options for everyone to get their information nowadays. They need to shock you to get you to watch.

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#276 camoor

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:14 PM

Many poor people are perfectly content with their lives as they are. You guys seem to take the "want" to better yourself for granted. And some would even take that last sentence as an insult.

This is not to say we shouldn't help those in need, but "need" is subjective.


You watch too many movies. You know - the nice ones where the big city lawyer moves to a poor rural town and the poor townfolk teach him a lesson that money isn't everything, and he should slow down and enjoy the simple pleasures like fishing.

Those movies are full of shit. Being poor sucks, and if you ask anyone who is poor whether they would like to make more money they will say yes. If you ask them whether more money would improve their life drastically they will say yes.

#277 Knoell

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:33 PM

You watch too many movies. You know - the nice ones where the big city lawyer moves to a poor rural town and the poor townfolk teach him a lesson that money isn't everything, and he should slow down and enjoy the simple pleasures like fishing.

Those movies are full of shit. Being poor sucks, and if you ask anyone who is poor whether they would like to make more money they will say yes. If you ask them whether more money would improve their life drastically they will say yes.


You can ask ANYONE those questions and they would say yes.

Being poor does suck, however you are looking at it from the perspective of "why wouldn't they want to make more money? So why wouldn't they put their best foot forward if they were able?", and in my opinion that is the wrong way to look at it because although anyone will say more money will improve their circumstances, not everyone will put their best foot forward to do it. This isn't to say poor people are lazy, but it is saying that there are people out there who either won't help themselves or think they are perfectly fine where they are at in their lives regardless of whether or not YOU think they are or aren't fine.

And no, I think you are watching too many movies where the poor kid just needs an opportunity, and if he gets that opportunity, he will take it, run with it, and success will follow! That isn't to say that we shouildn't provide those opportunities, just that the opportunity is not always converted into what is best for the beneficiary.

#278 camoor

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:44 AM

You can ask ANYONE those questions and they would say yes.

Being poor does suck, however you are looking at it from the perspective of "why wouldn't they want to make more money? So why wouldn't they put their best foot forward if they were able?", and in my opinion that is the wrong way to look at it because although anyone will say more money will improve their circumstances, not everyone will put their best foot forward to do it. This isn't to say poor people are lazy, but it is saying that there are people out there who either won't help themselves or think they are perfectly fine where they are at in their lives regardless of whether or not YOU think they are or aren't fine.

And no, I think you are watching too many movies where the poor kid just needs an opportunity, and if he gets that opportunity, he will take it, run with it, and success will follow! That isn't to say that we shouildn't provide those opportunities, just that the opportunity is not always converted into what is best for the beneficiary.


Not true, I was watching a documentary last night and the rich Wall Street guy was admitting that money was a game to him, and he liked making money because he liked to win. More money wouldn't improve his life drastically (look that word up so you know what it means) - money was not life or death to him - money was just a way to keep score. The example he used was that he was mad that he bought a boat and never used it - and he was mad about that because in his mind he was losing money - but he admitted he had far more stuff then he knew what to do with it and making more money had nothing to do with improving his life.

Those Horatio Alger movies are full of shit as well but not for the reasons you think. Poor people are rarely given opportunities, and the ones they get are shitty. For a poor person who happens to have brains, taking a risk doesn't involve asking daddy for an interest free loan like Romney thinks, it means taking on crippling student loan and sacrificing your social life for an education that may or may not pay off in chance to score an overtime all-the-time barely white collar job.

I didn't know you were so ignorant that you bought into the myth that poor people are poor because they are lazy. If I had known you were such a buffoon I wouldn't have wasted my time.

#279 slidecage

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:25 AM

Yeah, $200 a week ins't excessive for 5 people. Diaper products aren't cheap.


Throw people in jail for having kids or take them away for being poor...LOLZ

You actually finally hit upon a valid point for once, albeit tangentially: people care more about pets and animals than poor, especially if they're black, kids.


if you cant support them yourself then why the hell should we

Noone is forcing these people to have children

i want to play the lotto so i think everyone should be forced to by my tickets every week..
WOOOO I STINK

#280 dohdough

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:45 AM

if you cant support them yourself then why the hell should we

Maybe because the societal cost is a lot higher if we don't? Things like increased crime, increased resources used for law enforcement, increased resources to the judicial system, and increased resources used to detain people for extended periods of time, disenfranchisement, lower employment possibilities, and a host of other things that you probably have literally no understanding of.

Noone is forcing these people to have children

Actually, a certain party has been pushing for this, but that's for another discussion that you shouldn't involve yourself in because you're a moron.

i want to play the lotto so i think everyone should be forced to by my tickets every week..

Now tell us how this is the same as having kids. Don't forget to explain how jailing people or taking their kids away are good ideas as well.

#281 RedvsBlue

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:30 AM

Actually, a certain party has been pushing for this, but that's for another discussion that you shouldn't involve yourself in because you're a moron.


See dohdough, that's where I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you. I don't think having children is what slidecage has a problem with but rather the fact that there are people out there that are having sexual intercourse with another human while slidecage on the other hand only participates in sexual activity that could only be described as "purely hands on."

#282 cancerman1120

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:44 AM

Actually, a certain party has been pushing for this, but that's for another discussion that you shouldn't involve yourself in because you're a moron.


That is why a story like this makes conservatives heads explode. First it is about abortion, then it is about promiscuity, and the finally it is about religious freedom. Studies like this are the ultimate rebuttal to policies based on religious texts over 2000 years old.

Then again I think you are referring to a completely different reason for wanting people to have babies but that can be for a different time.

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#283 Sarang01

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:47 AM

I'm not sure I know what this means. Are you implying that $200/week on food + toiletries for 5 people is a lot or a little or just about right? We do buy a lot of organic milk but it's the diapers and wipes that really get you.


At essentially $1000 a month you should be able to afford Organics all over as such.

If you're having problems I can supply resources/suggestions for you. I want everyone here to be able to afford going Organic and I'll contribute suggestions accordingly.

With fresh stuff you have a CSA around there right Javery? There are Organic CSA's that are very affordable for offering fresh Organic fruits and vegetables, at least around me. For your family you may want to buy two shares for the week.
Going in bulk is another great tip. Given you have 5 people in the family you should be able to make a sizeable dent in things considering you have three growing kids. When I say bulk I'm speaking less of pre-packaged and more going from the bases and cooking from scratch. It's healthier in general, without all those fucking chemicals and preservatives.
If you do have some canned food on hands I strongly suggest only Eden Foods as most of their stuff is next to nothing on Sodium(I suspect this is because Kombu does an excellent job of preserving without the need for much sodium). Also all their canned stuff, with the exception of Tomato related products, contain no BPA in the linings.
Also when you order Organic only be cautious because unless the package it comes in says not to, the USPS may irradiate your package. I don't know UPS or FedEx's conduct on this though.
edit: We all know some Conservatives in Congress really aren't against Abortion except that it hampers a nice steady supply of cheap, disposable bodies for cannon fodder in the latest war to help expand some Corporations bottom line.
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#284 skiizim

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:22 AM

The closest thing slidecage will ever get to his want is if an "anchor baby law" is ever passed. Who knows if the amendment will ever get changed but I know this has been a pretty heavy issue the past few years.

#285 Knoell

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:58 AM

Not true, I was watching a documentary last night and the rich Wall Street guy was admitting that money was a game to him, and he liked making money because he liked to win. More money wouldn't improve his life drastically (look that word up so you know what it means) - money was not life or death to him - money was just a way to keep score. The example he used was that he was mad that he bought a boat and never used it - and he was mad about that because in his mind he was losing money - but he admitted he had far more stuff then he knew what to do with it and making more money had nothing to do with improving his life.

Those Horatio Alger movies are full of shit as well but not for the reasons you think. Poor people are rarely given opportunities, and the ones they get are shitty. For a poor person who happens to have brains, taking a risk doesn't involve asking daddy for an interest free loan like Romney thinks, it means taking on crippling student loan and sacrificing your social life for an education that may or may not pay off in chance to score an overtime all-the-time barely white collar job.

I didn't know you were so ignorant that you bought into the myth that poor people are poor because they are lazy. If I had known you were such a buffoon I wouldn't have wasted my time.


This one rich guy says this, and you think it proves your point?

Also I have not commented on the number of opportunities given to poor people.

I have also directly stated that I do not believe all poor people are lazy. Just like being stuck in a $50,000 a year job, you may be perfectly content. Would more money do you good? Absolutely! Are you willing to make the moves necessary to make that next jump up the ladder? Maybe. Do people become complacent in their lives? Absolutely. To deny this is to deny reality.

You fail to comprehend the point, and you think you have beaten me by calling me out on things I have not said?

Lastly you think that anyone legitimately doing well for themselves have to have taken on crippling student debt to get a mediocre job because that's the best they can do. Otherwise "daddy" helped them. It is kind of funny how you want people to defy one overlord, just to be under the boot of another, and you call it legitimate...

As if there are the "rich" people, and the rest of us, and they don't cross back and forth at all. There are never new rich people, and the rich never lose it all.

You know, because all 3,200,000, millionaires had it handed to them. But not even that, it seems like you believe anyone making more than 100k to be "rich" and had that handed to them as well.

You are always good for a laugh Camoor.

Edited by Knoell, 06 October 2012 - 11:11 AM.


#286 camoor

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:36 PM

This one rich guy says this, and you think it proves your point?

Also I have not commented on the number of opportunities given to poor people.

I have also directly stated that I do not believe all poor people are lazy. Just like being stuck in a $50,000 a year job, you may be perfectly content. Would more money do you good? Absolutely! Are you willing to make the moves necessary to make that next jump up the ladder? Maybe. Do people become complacent in their lives? Absolutely. To deny this is to deny reality.

You fail to comprehend the point, and you think you have beaten me by calling me out on things I have not said?

Lastly you think that anyone legitimately doing well for themselves have to have taken on crippling student debt to get a mediocre job because that's the best they can do. Otherwise "daddy" helped them. It is kind of funny how you want people to defy one overlord, just to be under the boot of another, and you call it legitimate...

As if there are the "rich" people, and the rest of us, and they don't cross back and forth at all. There are never new rich people, and the rich never lose it all.

You know, because all 3,200,000, millionaires had it handed to them. But not even that, it seems like you believe anyone making more than 100k to be "rich" and had that handed to them as well.

You are always good for a laugh Camoor.


Your problem is that you don't think, you just emote based on your gut. And you have what they call in the business a "rotten gut"

Show me a self-made millionaire and 9 times out of 10 I'll show you a rich family with connections pulling strings behind the scenes. Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Romney, they all come from money and it's rare that someone makes the jump from comfortable to rich (just ask JaveryH how hard it is, he talks about it all the time)

Secondly there is a ton of difference between:
Situation A) Poor hungry person being able to afford a few fresh apples
Situation B) Supperrich Wall Street investor being able to add another Maserati to the fleet

If you don't understand that then really read up about the law of diminishing marginal utility and think about it. That's right - think about something for once you dummy!

#287 Confucius

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

I'm comfortable. Unless I win the powerball, I'll never get rich.

There's just too many barriers to entry.

By rich, I mean like 1/2 percent.

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I'm 100% shocked that books still exist in today's day and age. I thought they'd be out by now. They make up like 1% of today's entertainment and unless you're 60 or older, stray away from books and start emersing yourself with real entertainment.

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#288 Knoell

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:19 PM

Your problem is that you don't think, you just emote based on your gut. And you have what they call in the business a "rotten gut"

Show me a self-made millionaire and 9 times out of 10 I'll show you a rich family with connections pulling strings behind the scenes. Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Romney, they all come from money and it's rare that someone makes the jump from comfortable to rich (just ask JaveryH how hard it is, he talks about it all the time)

Secondly there is a ton of difference between:
Situation A) Poor hungry person being able to afford a few fresh apples
Situation B) Supperrich Wall Street investor being able to add another Maserati to the fleet

If you don't understand that then really read up about the law of diminishing marginal utility and think about it. That's right - think about something for once you dummy!


Now you are just rattling off nonsense. Im not even sure what you are talking about anymore.....

Poor person unable to buy apples and wall street investors? wtf.....

And there is that marginal utility term again, I haven't responded to that for a reason.

And finally, jumping from comfortable to rich is too hard? Really? One, in what world do you think the government can make this easier? Two, you complain about millionaires not needing their money, and yet you aspire to become one, and that it is a crime against people that it is so hard.

#289 camoor

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:28 PM

And there is that marginal utility term again, I haven't responded to that for a reason.


Let me guess - because you're an uneducated moron who bitterly hates intellectuals?

#290 camoor

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:38 PM

And finally, jumping from comfortable to rich is too hard? Really? One, in what world do you think the government can make this easier? Two, you complain about millionaires not needing their money, and yet you aspire to become one, and that it is a crime against people that it is so hard.


Offer a level playing field for one. There I gave you an answer. Will I get a response?

Also, not that it has anything to do with anything but I don't aspire to be a millionaire.

#291 Knoell

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:57 PM

Let me guess - because you're an uneducated moron who bitterly hates intellectuals?


Offer a level playing field for one. There I gave you an answer. Will I get a response?

Also, not that it has anything to do with anything but I don't aspire to be a millionaire.


And no, I dismiss it because you all keep throwing it around as if it actually proves your point.

What is a level playing field?

#292 camoor

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:15 AM

And no, I dismiss it because you all keep throwing it around as if it actually proves your point.


That's right, run away bitch boy.

What is a level playing field?


It's not a system where investments are not taxed as normal income. For one...

#293 Knoell

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:16 PM

That's right, run away bitch boy.



It's not a system where investments are not taxed as normal income. For one...


So would you remove the tax exemption from 401ks and other investments?

Edit:

Here's a question, What do you think Wall Street will look like if you make the taxable rates of long term gains the same as short term gains?

Edited by Knoell, 07 October 2012 - 02:41 PM.


#294 camoor

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:25 PM

So would you remove the tax exemption from 401ks and other investments?


Not so much 401Ks (planning for retirement is important Knoell, better get up on it ol buddy) - but certain other investments are a no brainer.

#295 dmaul1114

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:51 PM

I think retirement accounts (401Ks, IRAs etc.--things that can't be touched without penalty until retirement age) are the only investments that should get tax exemptions.

People need to be encouraged to save so we end up with fewer elderly people with no savings taxing the system.

Anything else shouldn't get any exemptions on any profits earned, and any profits should get taxed at a persons income bracket, the the 15% capital gains.

Encourage people to save for retirement. Otherwise any other investment profits should just be treated as income. Maybe that will encourage more execs to invest more in expanding their business etc. instead of lining their own pockets with profits from short term investments.

#296 dohdough

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:54 PM

Here's a question, What do you think Wall Street will look like if you make the taxable rates of long term gains the same as short term gains?

HAHAHAHA...holy Fuck! This can't be a serious question!:rofl:

#297 Msut77

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:58 PM

It isn't a serious question. They will question you to death to avoid saying anything, find something they can twist around and go "AHA" and declare victory.
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#298 Knoell

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

I think retirement accounts (401Ks, IRAs etc.--things that can't be touched without penalty until retirement age) are the only investments that should get tax exemptions.

People need to be encouraged to save so we end up with fewer elderly people with no savings taxing the system.

Anything else shouldn't get any exemptions on any profits earned, and any profits should get taxed at a persons income bracket, the the 15% capital gains.

Encourage people to save for retirement. Otherwise any other investment profits should just be treated as income. Maybe that will encourage more execs to invest more in expanding their business etc. instead of lining their own pockets with profits from short term investments.


Fair enough.

However, even if we go by your theory, your best case scenario is that people will invest back into the business, rather than paying the higher tax. How does this increase revenue? But that isn't true either because its inevitable that people will have to take their money out, and they will inevitably pay the higher tax. Raising this tax is an emotional reaction at best, and there doesn't seem to be a clear benefit to do it, nor is there a plan to use any "potential" revenue that would be gained.

#299 dmaul1114

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:16 PM

I care more about creating jobs and upping worker wages (investing in the business) more than I do upping tax revenue.

The issue is wealth being to concentrated in the top few percent due to greedy execs pocketing too much of profits rather than expanding the business and paying their workers more.

Tax revenue would still go up though, as plenty of greedy fucks will just continue pocketing money even though its taxed more rather than re-investing into the company as its still more money in their bank account that way.

#300 camoor

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

I care more about creating jobs and upping worker wages (investing in the business) more than I do upping tax revenue.

The issue is wealth being to concentrated in the top few percent due to greedy execs pocketing too much of profits rather than expanding the business and paying their workers more.

Tax revenue would still go up though, as plenty of greedy fucks will just continue pocketing money even though its taxed more rather than re-investing into the company as its still more money in their bank account that way.


True but even more tax revenue is a more desirable result. At least we'd be paying down the debt instead of giving the rich another free ride.